Assulting a Deep Striking Unit

[BlkTom]

My question is this...

 

A IC attached to a unit that DSs in and blows up a transport in the shooting phase. You place the IC and then form rings around the IC base to base till all members are on of that squad the IC is attached to. That squad is then assaulted by a unit with a IC from said destroyed transport on that player's turn.

 

The rules state you have to move your IC first, then the squad (Pg 49 BRB, bottom left paragraph). They also say you can not move through friendly figs or any gap to small for your base (Pg 34, Moving Assaulting Models, Pg 11 Models in the Way). If you do not get in base to base contact with your IC, he can not attack.

 

Can the IC in the unit that DSed in get in melee combat when it is surrounded by friendly figs? I can not find anything in the BRB about moving through friendly figs for a IC in the /responce/ of an assault, just rules for the IC assaulting. Does the model type (as in Jump Infantry) or with gear (jump pack) matter? I.E. You jump over your friendly squad members, so your going over, not through.

 

I am not sure I am interpeting this right, but this is how it looks to me... Since the IC is trapped by his own squad, he can not move. Then the squad moves. The IC loses the ability to get involved in the combat that assult phase. He can get in base to base in the Pile In phase if there is an opening that is legal for him to reach via the movement rules.

 

I just re-read the Deep Strike rules (pg 95), and it doesn't say you have to start with a IC, just says model. I was informed you started with the IC. Am I mis-informed or is this FAQed? Cause otherwise it seems 'counter productive' to DS ICs with squads that could be assaulted.

[Grey Mage]

Starting with the IC is 'standard practice' but isnt required. Any model from the unit will do.

 

As for being assaulted- even if he is inside, I dont see a problem with moving him later in the que if thatll get him into combat. It doesnt say that they must be first, or second- but simply that they need to move before other friendly units to try to get into combat. So, Id move him as soon as their was a clear path.

[SeattleDV8]

BRB FAQ

"Q: An Independent Character attached to a unit that is

reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move,

must move before other friendly models to attempt to get

in base contact with an enemy. What happens if the

Independent Character is blocked from getting to enemy

models by friendly models around him? (p49)

A: If it is possible to move friendly models out of the way

to make space for the Independent Character then they

must move first. Followed by the Independent Character

and finally the rest of the unit can move. If the

Independent Character is still unable to make it into base

contact he must move as close to the enemy as possible."

[Spacefrisian]

In adittion, the unit that deepstriked and formed up around the ic (provided its possible) will never be 6" big in any directuion. So when that other unit assaults the unit an IC moves up to 6" and must get as many models in base contact as possible. You will never be able to hide youre IC in that deepstriked unit.

[BlkTom]

Thanks SeattleDV8, that is the info I was looking for!

 

Yeah Space, but it wasn't for hiding a IC. I assualted a friend and had him pinned between a table edge, a dred, and assault terminators where his IC (Dante) couldn't get out from his guard. We, being inexperienced with 5th Ed, screwed up and allowed Dante to attack with the 'within 2" rule' for normal figs. I knew in my gut there was something odd with it (plus it got my arse kicked because of it) and wanted to look into it deeper, which lead to my question. Turns out it really doesn't matter since the FAQ allows the Fig to get into combat. All it meant was that my Thunder Hammer would have been able to attack Dante.

 

It does lead to this though...

 

My LC Terminators in their Init wiped out the Guard... removing the figs and thus not allowing my Thunder Hammers to attack on Init 1. Would my TH's be able to attack Dante even though the other members of the squad attacked his guard?

 

My gut tells me no...

[Grey Mage]

You dont allocate attacks by unit, but rather by model. And a model can split its attacks- characters are sometimes put in this position.

 

What it comes down to is who is in base to base with whom. If your LC TDA was in contact with dante and the gaurdsmen, they could attack either- if they wiped out the gaurdsmen, and the TH+SS TDA hadnt been in contact with dante- or not in contact with anyone but within 2" of someone whose in contact with dante- theyd simply lose their attacks. If they were close enough to be enaged with him, and not touching the gaurdsmen, they could still attack him without issue.

 

I hope that doesnt sound to horribly complicated because its really pretty simple.

[BlkTom]

I hope that doesnt sound to horribly complicated because its really pretty simple.

 

Yes and no. From what I was lead to believe, you could not split your attacks with normal troops, just ICs. If you can, then yes, it makes things a heck of alot easier to figure out. I just failed to see anything concerning targeting in the Assault phase.

 

Now, I will point this out... pg 37 Number of Attacks... 'As explained earlier, models attack in order of initiative. When their initiative value is reached, models with that initiative who are still alive must attack. It does not matter if all the enemies that they were engaged with have been killed - if a model was engaged at the start of the fight (and still alive when its turn to attack comes) it can still attack.'

 

Under Who can Fight, pg 35 ... 'Working out which models are engaged in combat is done at the start of the fight, and will not change untill its end, but casualties may make it difficult to remember as the fight continues, especially in a large combat.'

 

I take this to be that my TH/SS TDA guys actually get to still attack, since in the begining of the combat they were able to attack. They could target Dante or the Sanguairy Guard, no matter who the LC TDA's targeted, since when the combat started they were legally able to attack.

[Grey Mage]

Yes- they can still attack.

However they cant attack if there isnt a unit they were engaged with left to attack.

 

What that rule prevents is someone removing all the casualties in BtB with the enemy and then saying they cant be attacked.

[ShinyRhino]

It is completely possible that a Deepstriking unit containing an IC can be engaged by assaulting models so as to prevent the IC from participating until at least the second round of close combat.

 

Take, for example, a Chaos Lord in TDA, attached to a unit of 5 Chaos Terminators. The owningplayer places the Chaos Lord as the initial model for the deepstrike, and rolls his scatter. Regardless of the result, the owning player then formas a ring of 5 models around the Lord.

The Terminators do their thing during the Shooting phase, using combimeltas to blow up a tank.

In the enemy's turn, they move a unit into charge position of the Lord and his squad, stopping 1" away. We'll say it's a Marine Captain, and his Command Squad, totalling 6 models.

The Captain and his squad charge the Chaos unit. The closest model to the Chaos unit must move first. For simplicity's sake, we'll say it's the Captain. He moves to base contact with the model he's closest to. The remaining members of the Command squad now only have to make base contact with as many Chaos models as possible. Since Chaos Terminator (CT1) is based by the Captain, the Command squad must endeavour to base CM2-5. They cannot base the Lord, as he is completely surrounded by Chaos models. The Command Squad uses its 5 members to base CT2-5, and it is now the Chaos player's oppotunity to make Defenders React moves. The only unengaged modelis the Chaos Lord, but unfortunately he does not have room to move to base contact with an enemy model because of the surrounding Chaos Terminators. The Lord is stuck sitting out this round of combat.

All attacks by the Marine player must be directed at the Chaos Terminators only, as the Lord is not in base contact with anyone.

Should the entire Chaos squad not be destroyed by the close combat (via a Sweeping Advance, or No Retreat wounds), the attackers must Pile In to the survivng models by moving now-unengaged models. If the path is clear to the Lord, he must be based by at least one of the unengaged Marines, allowing the Lord to fight in the next round.

If by some major miracle, no models from either side were killed during the first round, no Pile In moves can be made, as all models are still engaged, and not eliglible to move. The Lord sits out another round!

[Brother Captain Ed]

Ummm... The FAQ requires friendly models to move out of the way. I've always read that to mean the IC can just tag out a friendly model and if the other model then cannot move into CC, oh well, but the IC is required to be in combat assuming he's not farther than six inches away.

[ShinyRhino]

Ummm... The FAQ requires friendly models to move out of the way. I've always read that to mean the IC can just tag out a friendly model and if the other model then cannot move into CC, oh well, but the IC is required to be in combat assuming he's not farther than six inches away.

 

It says no such thing.

Q: An Independent Character attached to a unit that is

reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move,

must move before other friendly models to attempt to get

in base contact with an enemy. What happens if the

Independent Character is blocked from getting to enemy

models by friendly models around him? (p49)

A: If it is possible to move friendly models out of the way

to make space for the Independent Character then they

must move first. Followed by the Independent Character

and finally the rest of the unit can move. If the

Independent Character is still unable to make it into base

contact he must move as close to the enemy as possible.

 

The answer begins with "if it is possible". In the scenario I presented above, it is NOT possible for friendly models to move before the IC. The only model I can think of that can simply swap places with a friendly model is The Emperor's Champion.

Each Chaos Terminator in the above scenario is prevented from moving because they are already engaged with an enemy model, and therefore ineligible for making Defenders React moves.

[BlkTom]

Yeah, that was the same situation I ran into, where the IC was trapped in the middle of a DS squad which kinda lead to this question. My friend and I screwed it up by allowing the IC to attack, thinking ICs can use the 2" combat rule (which they can't). We then made a second mistake where I killed the guys surrounding his IC with LC TDAs, so since my TH/SS guys no longer within 2" of a guy in base to base combat, they couldn't attact (again, they could according to the rules I posted because at the start of combat they had legal right to attack). I am trying to learn from the situation so my friends and I stop screwing up. I lost this match because of these mistakes, so it was a hard learned lesson.

 

If we played it right, his IC in the DS squad might have been able to get into combat if there was space for guys to move aside, but there wasn't. His IC then could not attack my squad since the 2" rules doesn't apply to ICs. My TH/SS TDAs would have still gotten their attacks off, even though the squad was killed by the LC TDAs. They could target the IC, even though he was not able to personally get involved in the combat. If we would have ignored the wounds caused by his IC, I would have won the combat and he would have have to take fearless wounds. I also may have also swept his IC or his IC would have ran off the board on a failed leadership roll (-5 from the 5 wounds) since he was within 3" of the table edge.

 

Thank you all for your time and effort. You all are helping me learn the rules by forcing me to re-read and understand the rules and by suffering through my qestions.

[ShinyRhino]

If we played it right, his IC in the DS squad might have been able to get into combat if there was space for guys to move aside, but there wasn't. His IC then could not attack my squad since the 2" rules doesn't apply to ICs. My TH/SS TDAs would have still gotten their attacks off, even though the squad was killed by the LC TDAs. They could target the IC, even though he was not able to personally get involved in the combat. If we would have ignored the wounds caused by his IC, I would have won the combat and he would have have to take fearless wounds. I also may have also swept his IC or his IC would have ran off the board on a failed leadership roll (-5 from the 5 wounds) since he was within 3" of the table edge.

 

This is actually NOT correct. You declare the target unit of a model's attacks at the beginning of the close combat. Your Claw TDA models would declare their attacks against the surrounding Chaos Terminators, as the Lord is not an eligible target. Your Hammers would have to declare their targets at the same time, and since the Lord is not a valid target, they must attack the Chaos Terminators.

All of the Chaos terminators are killed at I4. At I1, there is nothing for the hammers to hit, since the unit they were declared against is entirely wiped out. Now, if only one Chaos terminator survived the claw attacks, but was more than 2" away from the Hammers, the Hammers could still attack, as their declared target still contains members. Since the claws did all the work, the hammers do nothing.

The Lord now takes his Morale test for losing combat, with any applicable modifiers. If Fearless, he rolls the appropriate No Retreat wounds. If he runs, he falls back 2d6" toward his table edge, ignoring all models that were involved in the melee. If he stays, or survives his No Retreat wounds, your Terminators make a Pile In move to reach base contact with him.

 

The way you read it is the most common misreading of the rule. The important part is that all mosdels involved in a melee must declare the target of their attacks before ANYONE swings. If a model's target is 100% destroyed before their Initiative is reached, theylose out on the attacks directed at the now-dead unit. There is no redeclaring of attacks.

[SeattleDV8]

If we played it right, his IC in the DS squad might have been able to get into combat if there was space for guys to move aside, but there wasn't. His IC then could not attack my squad since the 2" rules doesn't apply to ICs. My TH/SS TDAs would have still gotten their attacks off, even though the squad was killed by the LC TDAs. They could target the IC, even though he was not able to personally get involved in the combat. If we would have ignored the wounds caused by his IC, I would have won the combat and he would have have to take fearless wounds. I also may have also swept his IC or his IC would have ran off the board on a failed leadership roll (-5 from the 5 wounds) since he was within 3" of the table edge.

 

This is actually NOT correct. You declare the target unit of a model's attacks at the beginning of the close combat. Your Claw TDA models would declare their attacks against the surrounding Chaos Terminators, as the Lord is not an eligible target. Your Hammers would have to declare their targets at the same time, and since the Lord is not a valid target, they must attack the Chaos Terminators.

All of the Chaos terminators are killed at I4. At I1, there is nothing for the hammers to hit, since the unit they were declared against is entirely wiped out. Now, if only one Chaos terminator survived the claw attacks, but was more than 2" away from the Hammers, the Hammers could still attack, as their declared target still contains members. Since the claws did all the work, the hammers do nothing.

The Lord now takes his Morale test for losing combat, with any applicable modifiers. If Fearless, he rolls the appropriate No Retreat wounds. If he runs, he falls back 2d6" toward his table edge, ignoring all models that were involved in the melee. If he stays, or survives his No Retreat wounds, your Terminators make a Pile In move to reach base contact with him.

 

The way you read it is the most common misreading of the rule. The important part is that all mosdels involved in a melee must declare the target of their attacks before ANYONE swings. If a model's target is 100% destroyed before their Initiative is reached, theylose out on the attacks directed at the now-dead unit. There is no redeclaring of attacks.

Actually that is wrong Rhino.

BRB pg. 41

"Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units. Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit ."

You determine what you can hit at the start of combat, you determine what you are going to hit just before you swing.

[BlkTom]

BRB pg. 41

"Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units. Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit ."

You determine what you can hit at the start of combat, you determine what you are going to hit just before you swing.

 

To support SeattleDV8's point, since it is under Multiple Combats... a IC in any unit turns the combat into a Multiple Combat.

Pg 49 'When attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a seperate single model unit (as described under Multiple Combats on page 41) even though they have joined the unit.'

 

Rhino is still right though on his point that I couldn't attack the IC since nothing was in base to base with it at the begining of the combat. The IC couldn't attack me either since it wasn't able to get in base to base. My TH/SS TDAs only valid target was the unit my Lightining Claws were base to base with, and they were all dead by Init 1. The IC then still has to deal with the end results of the combat (for leadership rolls and the like) as stated further on under the part I quoted. Seattle's quote is the first place where it even mentions splitting attacks for non-IC units, I might add.

 

Man, would be nice if they actually had this all in one location instead of scattered all over 10+ pages.

[SeattleDV8]

Agreed, the rules tend to be scattered all over the place...heh.

[ShinyRhino]

Weird. I thought for sure I was doing it right. Our whole group plays it that way. I'll have to find the heretic that started it and burn him.