Packless Assault Marines

[BearersOfSalvation]

Has anyone gotten much use out of removing the packs from a small squad of assault marines? It seems to me that spending 110 points for a squad of 5 guys in a rhino (or razorback) with a flamer and chainswords gives you a quick and cheap unit, they just seem dirt cheap when I think about it. But whenever I start to actually try to use them I end up deciding to use a tac squad for their spot (I can pay 110 and get a unit that's the same except it gives up 3 attacks but is scoring, as long as I spend 95 on 5 scoring guys with a ML who can camp out somewhere). It just annoys me that they seem like they'd be so handy, but I don't ever seem to really want to use then.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Quite a lot of people use the full 10 men in a rhino, it gives them 2 flamers and a decent assault unit in a protected box and adds more AV to the field, as for 5 men....well thats a little different as the small squad is going to be quite fragile (like the jump pack equivalent) and thus not operate as effectively in combat against anything other than a weakened unit, generally its better to steer clear of small squads like this and go for the big 10 men unit.

[TyrionTheImp]

I don't know, in C:SM I just find Assault Marines to be so useless. If you bring them with jump packs they get shot to pieces, if you bring them without packs the only special weapons they can bring is flamers and plasma pistols. Really, it has little to do with points cost and more to do with options.

 

If they could bring say Meltaguns for instance like C:BA can, well, now we're talking. Bringing 10 with 2x Meltas in a Rhino gives me an extra hull, more melta, and more bodies but as it stands with a choice between flamers and plasma pistols, Tacticals for us can do so much better. You even said yourself you can do the same thing with Tacticals except it's scoring, in addition to that for 10 points more you can get a combi-weapon on the sergeant giving the squad more firepower. Sure, you have to bring the 5 extra guys, but more bodies is never a bad thing, and an extra ML isn't either.

 

You advocate bringing 5 in a Rhino (you can't bring Razorbacks as Dedicated transports for them I don't think), with a flamer for a cheap unit. A cheap unit that does what though? It can't score, it gets one flame template, and 5 Marines even with CCW/Pistols still suck at close combat. Not to mention it takes up a Fast Attack slot where we can get fast melta. Even a 10 man unit with 2 Flamers I don't see as being very effective. Marines in close combat suck at it unless they bring power weapons and storm shields, and only the sergeant can bring that.

[Destaro]

Honestly, I've tried bringing Assault Marines in a number of set ups. In C:SM, they just don't fill a dedicated role. If they were scoring or had different weapon options, they might be useful. So unless you're playing C:BA, Assault Marines are probably going to be one of those units that sit on the shelf and gather dust.

 

However, if you want to play Assault Marines and don't care as much about effectiveness then you have some decent options (although one that can be filled better by other units in the 'Dex in my opinion).

 

I'm a fan of 9 Marines (1 Flamer), Sgt with PF/SS, and a Librarian in a Rhino. You can slap Avenger on the Librarian and pretty much whatever other power strikes your fancy. Null Zone is annoying if you have a more power weapon heavy unit hanging around, The Quickening is nice to pick a few models off before combat really starts, and Might of Ancients essentially give your Librarian a Relic Blade. I like to run this in conjuction with a Tac Squad (MM, melta gun, combi-melta) in a Rhino. The Assault Marines give you a nice counter assault or to finish off models clumped together when bailing from their transport.

 

I've also had some success Drop Podding Assault Marines. They don't pose much of an immediate threat but your opponent will have to deal with them eventually. I find throwing in an HQ or Special Character gives you a cheap delivery system with some ablative, non-scoring wounds you can stand to lose.

 

Lastly, you can run them with Khan and a Chaplain out of a Land Raider. It feels a lot like playing Blood Angels but you can get a bunch of Str 5 attacks with re-rolls to hit. It's pricey and a really heavy investment for a non-Terminator unit, but I've seen it perform reasonably well.

 

Hope that helps and tell us about your experience.

[DarkGuard]

You can make them work, and work well, you just need to pick your targets carefully. Oh and take the full 10 man squad with dual flamers and a fist. Remember you can only assault out of the Rhino if you didn't move, so positioning is key. Most of the time it should be used as a counter assault unit, helping out your Tacticals when they get in trouble, and cleaning up weakened units they shoot at. I'm thinking of doing something similar, only with a close combat Command squad in a Razorback (I have quad plasma but it's so boring).

 

However, 5 men won't do more except add saturation and be annoying. That's about it. You're better off paying for a Tactical squad in a Razorback for the cheap heavy weapon, and give them a combi-flamer as well.

 

Now Blood Angels can make them work, well. Sang Priest, cheap Rhinos or Razorbacks. But that's another discussion.

[maturin]

What the others said.

 

There's only one reason I can think of to take a squad so small. If you really, really, need another rhino, a packless assault squad is probably the cheapest way to get one. What do you do with the squad? Not sure. Maybe a speed bump/sacrificial unit?

[Wildfire]

I don't know that I would take assault marines in general, but I do think that if I did I would be more likely to take them in a rhino than with packs.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

If you take a small unit, they can be useful to help a character like Lysander, take them as a small retinue to stop him from being overwhelmed and still have a melee orientation.

 

Thing is though, you'll want to consider assault marines with CC scouts as the scouts can score and be just as lethal in a melee fight. They are also cheaper. So it might be worth weighing up a scout squad instead...

[BearersOfSalvation]

Yeah, people seem to have the same opinion of them as I do. I was trying to put together a 750 point list, and it seemed like that would be a great time to add a small squad like that to escort the commander, but I just kept saying 'why not use tactical marines instead, they're scoring and you're going to have them anyway'. I think if assult squads and dev squads were scoring for vanilla marines (and they are part of the basic chapter troops, so it would make sense) you'd see them used a lot more.

[DarkGuard]

Yeah, people seem to have the same opinion of them as I do. I was trying to put together a 750 point list, and it seemed like that would be a great time to add a small squad like that to escort the commander, but I just kept saying 'why not use tactical marines instead, they're scoring and you're going to have them anyway'. I think if assult squads and dev squads were scoring for vanilla marines (and they are part of the basic chapter troops, so it would make sense) you'd see them used a lot more.

 

The thing is they're not the Chapter's main troops, the Chapter's main troops are the Tactical Marines, evidenced by the fact that Battle Companies have 6 Tactical squads each and only 2 Assault and Devastator squads. The Devastator Marines are made up mainly of Neophytes who have recently been made full Battle-brothers, giving them time to acclimatize to their new adjustments and gain more valuable battle experience while seeing it from afar. Assault Marines are typically Marines who have proven their worth in the Dev squads and are given duties in the Assault squads to temper their abilities and their righteous fury in the middle of battle. When the Marines are then proficient in shooting and assault they can then go into the Tactical squads, which are the main fighting force of the Chapter and need to be good in combat and shooting while having good discipline.

[BearersOfSalvation]

The thing is they're not the Chapter's main troops, the Chapter's main troops are the Tactical Marines, evidenced by the fact that Battle Companies have 6 Tactical squads each and only 2 Assault and Devastator squads.

 

The chapter's battle companies are made up of assault, tactical, and devastator squads. Those are the chapter's main troops used together to take and hold objectives, and they work together as integrated parts of a company. Other forces like veterans, terminators, scouts, and vehicles are attached to help them fight, but are just attached forces temporarily brought in, it's the permanent parts of the battle companies that constitute the main forces of the chapter, and that is the three base squad types. Under the current rules, devastator and assault squads work more like special temporary additions than a basic piece of the company, while scouts, who fluffwise are temporarily attached, act like a more basic part of the companies.

 

The Devastator Marines are made up mainly of Neophytes who have recently been made full Battle-brothers, giving them time to acclimatize

 

If you're trying to say that assault and devastator marines don't have enough training to be able to hold objectives like tacticals do, how do you explain their forgetfulness, since scouts are able to hold objectives? The whole line of thought doesn't work, it's just goofy rules interactions, not something that makes sense. Plus I'm not going to take goofy fluff that's only casually mentioned in passing in the most recent codex over the two decades of marine background that makes more sense. The bit about progressing through assault and devastator squads is only mentioned in one place, and will probably (hopefully) be forgotten by the next marine codex.

[DarkGuard]

Personally I quite like the new fluff, makes things more interesting and natural. Of course, if you're good at hitting things in assault you're added to an Assault squad.

 

As to why they can't hold objectives, mainly it is the rules, but from a fluff perspective you can kind of see it. A Captain wouldn't want an Assault squad sitting on an objective shooting with pistols, he'd want them harrying enemy lines, pushing them back, making a nuisance of themselves. Dev is harder to explain, but I suppose when you're concentrating on supporting the main force you don't want to look after that carton of Emperor's ashes :drool:.

 

I don't see why the complaining, I quite like how things are. Sure it's annoying, but for Marines it gives us a solid, flexible force that can attack and defend, backed up by other forces. If you really want scoring Assault squads go for Blood Angels, if you want scoring Devs then I dunno, Pedro and Sternguard?

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think what gets me is that for a staple unit to our codex, neither assault squads nor devastator squads really appeal to people as they are not as destructive for their points as other units can be.

 

Assault squads end up being more of a cleaner unit than a die hard assault unit.....

 

And devs tend to be overpriced, especially when compared to long fangs!

[DarkGuard]

Agree on both accounts. IMO Devs should have cheaper weapons, and Assault squad should be able to buy a couple of power weapons in the same options as specials (and just power weapons). Either that or something like what Gargoyle's have, auto wounds on a 6 to hit, but still allow saves. Would make them much more attractive.

[fredbob524]

the only time you should run assault marines in the vanilla codex is in a rhino with a lib great 100 pts of 5 ablative wounds and a vehicle

[The Unknown Father]

I´ve never prove it but if you go this way you can save 25 pts with an assault squad (I don´t know if it is worthy)

 

1 full tactical squad with razorback

 

2 5 assault marines with rhino

 

you go with the empty vehicles and in the first turn the tactical goes in the rhino and the assault one in the razorback. you save 25 points because assault marines cost 2 points more each one so they cost 2X5 10 points more, but you get a free rhino that cost 35.

 

As I said I don´t know if it is a good idea but is curious...

[BearersOfSalvation]

Personally I quite like the new fluff, makes things more interesting and natural. Of course, if you're good at hitting things in assault you're added to an Assault squad.

 

That's not the new fluff though, the new fluff is that you spend a while shooting things with a heavy weapon, then spend time chopping things in assault, then finally move to a tactical squad where you stay after that. The old style, including the advancement in the RPG, has marines becoming battle brothers, moving all three types of squad to get experience, and ending up wherever they show the most proficiency.

 

I don't see why the complaining, I quite like how things are. Sure it's annoying, but for Marines it gives us a solid, flexible force that can attack and defend, backed up by other forces. If you really want scoring Assault squads go for Blood Angels, if you want scoring Devs then I dunno, Pedro and Sternguard?

 

You've summed up the problem I have - if you want assault squads go for blood angels or use other units if you're vanilla, if you want devs well don't use devs, just use sternguard. Your typical competitive force ends up being some tac squads as a base, then you get long range firepower from tanks, drednoughts, and 5-man 2-weapon sternguard, and your assault power from terminators, command squads, and vanguard veterans.

 

IMO vanilla marines should be reaching for assault and devastator squads as basic building blocks of a force, they shouldn't be marginal units that mostly get used by people who take them because they like the paint job or really want to build a half-company for fluff reasons. I've got more than enough marines to field a battle company (I've run one in apocalypse), but my assault and devastators just don't get out much.

[DarkGuard]

Personally I quite like the new fluff, makes things more interesting and natural. Of course, if you're good at hitting things in assault you're added to an Assault squad.

 

That's not the new fluff though, the new fluff is that you spend a while shooting things with a heavy weapon, then spend time chopping things in assault, then finally move to a tactical squad where you stay after that. The old style, including the advancement in the RPG, has marines becoming battle brothers, moving all three types of squad to get experience, and ending up wherever they show the most proficiency.

 

I'm well aware that the "RPG advancement" is the old fluff, the second part of my sentence was referring back to that, and I'm pretty sure that the old fluff is still included with the new fluff, in that some Marines who show an aptitude for the Assault squad while serving their rotation there stay there, likewise for Dev squads.

 

I don't see why the complaining, I quite like how things are. Sure it's annoying, but for Marines it gives us a solid, flexible force that can attack and defend, backed up by other forces. If you really want scoring Assault squads go for Blood Angels, if you want scoring Devs then I dunno, Pedro and Sternguard?

 

You've summed up the problem I have - if you want assault squads go for blood angels or use other units if you're vanilla, if you want devs well don't use devs, just use sternguard. Your typical competitive force ends up being some tac squads as a base, then you get long range firepower from tanks, drednoughts, and 5-man 2-weapon sternguard, and your assault power from terminators, command squads, and vanguard veterans.

 

IMO vanilla marines should be reaching for assault and devastator squads as basic building blocks of a force, they shouldn't be marginal units that mostly get used by people who take them because they like the paint job or really want to build a half-company for fluff reasons. I've got more than enough marines to field a battle company (I've run one in apocalypse), but my assault and devastators just don't get out much.

 

I agree, it is disappointing, but it's done now. The least we can hope for is for a better Codex in this respect next time.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Maybe GW made devastators and assault squads below par so that vanguard and sternguard would look that much better? Its quite a shame that our basic building blocks are so poor, im actually rather drawn to both assault squads and devastators, but im not sure either would make a final list!

[pattison]

The only purpose of an assault squad would be the free rhino as mentioned.

Otherwise it's so so so crap that it's painful. Fragile, crappy equipment, no real CC punch. Just sad.

Otherwise Vanguard, Sternguard and Devastators are also quite meh.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

What about if you fielded them in large numbers? Im talking 2-3 units of 10 strong assault marines (getting a bit BA) but use them together for a mass attacks, could be damaging even with low strength attacks!

[pattison]

The potential BA has in assault squads is incomparable with the one in C:SM assault squads.

You know the differences and they are far from negligeable.

If we look at the use of them as you mentioned they still need quite a lot of effort to get them to work.

Not to mention that assault terminators do the slapping much more cost effective and more reliable.

Otherwise my fast attack slots are completely full with Typhoon squadrons, and I don't see a better unit that could make them go. :)

 

Earlier I've tested a 5 man assault squad in Rhino as a speedbump unit close to my home objective, and they did the job, but a 5 man squad of scouts works just as fine for that role, minus the Rhino rind.

[Kronk]

I have a bunch of space marines with Chainswords and pistols modeled and painted since I play Black Templars.

 

For grins, I will occassionally play codex marines. I've thrown them in a few times for fun and they've done well...against tactical marines and other weaker squads in close combat. Other than that, they are a bit underwhelming.

[DarkGuard]

I have a bunch of space marines with Chainswords and pistols modeled and painted since I play Black Templars.

 

For grins, I will occassionally play codex marines. I've thrown them in a few times for fun and they've done well...against tactical marines and other weaker squads in close combat. Other than that, they are a bit underwhelming.

 

This is the sad fact of assault squads. Against weak targets they do fine, but against the cream of the melee crop, they just can't compete. Hopefully this will be changed somehow in a few years time.

[Aegnor]

I run a Vulkan list and am tossing about putting in a squad of 10 Assault Marines in a drop pod, with Vulkan accompanying. He makes the two flamers better, and with his gauntlet, plus two flamers, that's a decent amount of burning, and Vulk makes them tougher with his invulnerable save, and much much more lethal in CC.

 

The other main reason I want a drop pod rather than a Rhino is for a teleport homer - seems like a decent way to get my Assault Terminators down, accurately, without the expense of a Land Raider.

 

Thoughts?