Packless Assault Marines

[Koremu]

I run a Vulkan list and am tossing about putting in a squad of 10 Assault Marines in a drop pod, with Vulkan accompanying. He makes the two flamers better, and with his gauntlet, plus two flamers, that's a decent amount of burning, and Vulk makes them tougher with his invulnerable save, and much much more lethal in CC.

 

The other main reason I want a drop pod rather than a Rhino is for a teleport homer - seems like a decent way to get my Assault Terminators down, accurately, without the expense of a Land Raider.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I think that Drop Podding Assault Marines leaves them stood in the open unable to Assault, and Teleporting Assault Terminators does likewise.

 

 

EDIT: Aaaaand now I realise I'm responding to a thread that was two months old before Aegnor necro'd it

[*Furyou Miko]

Assault Marines are just battle brothers who are equipped for close combat. They're not meant to go up against the Best of the Best of melee specialists!

 

They're only super elite when compared to Imperial Guard types.

 

Assault Marines are fine where they are, as they are. Don't try to make out like they should be Vanguard. That's not their role.

[Aegnor]

Sorry for the thread res, but it was about exactly the issue I wanted to discuss, so it seemed as easy to post here, rather than make a new thread on the same topic. :)

 

I'm more keen on the idea of the Assault squad for the two flamers rather than their CC prowess. With Vulkan with them, three twin linked Flamer templates seem like a lot of crispy action against the right target.

[DarkGuard]

All I ask for is the ability to have power weapons in the "1 in 5 Assault Marines may exchange their CCW or BP with". 10 man squad, power fist, maybe storm shield, and a couple of power weapons. Packless in a Rhino, or with jump packs accompanied by my Chaplain or Captain, I know I'd use them more often. An additional 4-6 power weapons will make them more useful in combat, while keeping them in a similar niche, I mean, they still won't be Vanguard or Hammernators.

[Koremu]

All I ask for is the ability to have power weapons in the "1 in 5 Assault Marines may exchange their CCW or BP with". 10 man squad, power fist, maybe storm shield, and a couple of power weapons. Packless in a Rhino, or with jump packs accompanied by my Chaplain or Captain, I know I'd use them more often. An additional 4-6 power weapons will make them more useful in combat, while keeping them in a similar niche, I mean, they still won't be Vanguard or Hammernators.

I am writing a fan codex which (among many other changes) has this ability.

 

Also, Meltaguns.

[Aegnor]

Melta would make them a bit over the top IMO.

 

I reckon it would have been good if they had the Heroic Intervention special rule. Given that they aren't monsters in CC, it wouldn't break the game. Would have put a bit of a squeeze on Vanguard Vets, but it's not like what they came up with was fantastic anyhow, and better weapon options (compared to Assault squads) and maybe an ability to re-roll the Vanguards' DS scatter would have kept enough separation IMO.

[TyrionTheImp]

Actually, I'd say melta would give them a well-needed boost. How is it over the top when Blood Angels have it exactly?

 

See, by giving them melta you give them the ability to open transports, and then charge the insides, unlike with Tacticals, when you melta you can't harm the insides with the same squad. If you're smart about it too you would only be opening transports that contain things Assault Marines can fight, which is most basic troops and ranged specialists. It would make them a far more viable options compared to Land Speeders and Attack Bikes who both can wield melta efficiently.

[maturin]

All I ask for is the ability to have power weapons in the "1 in 5 Assault Marines may exchange their CCW or BP with". 10 man squad, power fist, maybe storm shield, and a couple of power weapons. Packless in a Rhino, or with jump packs accompanied by my Chaplain or Captain, I know I'd use them more often. An additional 4-6 power weapons will make them more useful in combat, while keeping them in a similar niche, I mean, they still won't be Vanguard or Hammernators.

I am writing a fan codex which (among many other changes) has this ability.

 

Also, Meltaguns.

 

 

You may want to check out the Siege Assault Squad from IA10 - a packless assault marine troops selection for a Siege army that's pretty much exactly what you've described.

[MagicMan]

I think if Assault Squads could take Melta/Plasma 2 special weapons like BA, you'd see people use them a lot more.

[TheChairman]

Does anyone use them as kind of a "HQ-Retinue"? 5 ASM with Flamer in a free rhino. They wonts kill much, but it would give youre MotF/ Libby a save metalbox and some extra wounds.

 

Any thoughts?

[DarkGuard]

Does anyone use them as kind of a "HQ-Retinue"? 5 ASM with Flamer in a free rhino. They wonts kill much, but it would give youre MotF/ Libby a save metalbox and some extra wounds.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I've heard of that being a use for them before. I suppose it's cheap, as I'd imagine you'd give the Sergeant a fist, so with the flamer you're looking at 135pts, so 235pts in total with the Libby, that's less than Calgar on his own (extreme sample I know). And then you've still got 1300 or more off points depending on points level to use on other units. However, points permitting, I feel that for most HQ choices, the Sternguard squad makes a better retinue, although to make a similar squad (5 men, Rhino, heavy flamer - because its better, power fist) we're looking at 195pts, so 295pts in total. So if you have the extra 60pts then choose Sternguard, if not then the Assault squad will do well. And force org slots come into this as well. As you've said, don't expect it to do much damage, although in conjunction with another squad they'll make a good cleaner unit.

 

Of course, Blood Angels use a lot of similar squads in Razorspam lists, typically 5 men with a meltagun in an assault cannon Razorback, while the Sergeant has either a lightning claw or a power fist. Fast, can pump out a lot of firepower, and not too bad in assault, especially if a Priest is taken. But that's a different matter.

[Spaced Hulk]

Assault Squads would really benefit from more options: power weapons, melta bombs, cheap plasma pistols & hand flamers, smoke grenades so they can create their own cover etc. Basically they should have the same sort of options they had back in 2nd Edition.

 

Vanguard squads would still be viable, simply because of Heroic Intervention (although they could do with a points drop for their jump packs) and access to rarer weapons (eg power fists, storm shields, lightning claws, relic blades etc).

 

Mind you, I've always thought that chainswords should give a +1 strength bonus too :cuss

[thade]

Alright, necroed or not, this discussion is still rolling.

 

I frequently use packless assault marines, typically one unit, with a melta gun or two and a fist. I use the BA dex tho, so they're scoring. Which is nice. FNP with an apothecary tagging along really helps too.

 

I recommend against using HI with vanilla dex vanguard unless you are a tactical genius with locator beacons on scout bikes...with Tig...and/or extremely lucky. Pounding out of a Land Raider, however, they're a good time.

 

EDIT: I meant Tigurius; not Telion.

[Reinholt]

I don't really understand the appeal of the packless assault marine; why not just take tacticals? They score.

 

I do like packed assault marines. The main reason is that they have speed, like bikes, that cannot be removed simply by destroying a vehicle. The ability to get around the board and bully your enemy's shooting units (or make them spend a ton of effort to bog down the assault marines) is key. They don't shine against the cream of the crop in assault (but they aren't pointed like they should, either), but they do shine against non-assault units. Sticking them to tanks, devastators, obliterators, crisis suits, etc and locking units down in melee for your hammer to arrive is basically how I see them being most effectively used.

 

Plus, you can roll 10 man units + character(s) without transport restriction issues if they all have packs. The trick is that the assault squad, weirdly, is a defensive unit in the end, not offensive. You use them to neutralize things that would be threats by exploiting asymmetric match-ups, not by pounding the opponents assault units in the face. I know it sounds trite, but shoot the assault units and assault the shooting units wins games.

 

However, without mobility, you don't always get to pick that fight. Thus, I think cheap mobility often does have a role to play in most lists, especially if it can't be rapidly eliminated by taking out one vehicle. This also explains why I'm a huge fan of scoring bike units, as an aside...

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Assault squads seem like one of those units that you don't get quality of attacks, but rather quantity.

 

Units such as vanguard, honour guard or assault terminators are rarely 10 strong as they cost a lot, assault squads can bring both numbers and masses of weak attacks pretty easily. This in itself is a benefit, but pretty much sticks them in a counter assault or sweeper role. If they could take melta, id strongly debate taking a couple of squadsm either 2 melta, or 1 flamer and 1 melta in my army...admittedly its moving toward BA a little bit with that many assault marines, but they'd be a lot more viable in the vanilla marines army this way.

 

I understand packless assault marines, its kind of like a slightly more melee based squad, armed with 2 specials. Its just traded its pack for something with an armoured hide, which is good if the enemy has few anti-tank weapons or has massive amounts of anti-infantry fire...

[Kronk]

I run a Vulkan list and am tossing about putting in a squad of 10 Assault Marines in a drop pod, with Vulkan accompanying. He makes the two flamers better, and with his gauntlet, plus two flamers, that's a decent amount of burning, and Vulk makes them tougher with his invulnerable save, and much much more lethal in CC.

 

A 5-man sternguard squad with 2 flamers and 3 combiflamers would be cheaper and do the same job, if your goal is to flame their back-field. You won't have any CC ability, but I've never been much of a fan deep-striking a CC unit. Mine always get shot to hell.

[thade]

I don't really understand the appeal of the packless assault marine; why not just take tacticals? They score.

The units serve two very different functions. Tacticals hold positions and support the taking of positions with durability and rapid-fire. A very good way to whittle down an assault-centric unit is hammer them full of bolts. Then, when they charge in, your Tacticals can weather the storm.

 

An assault-centric unit's goal is to prevent a shooty squad (like a Tac squad) from doing these things; it does this by trapping it in "the other world". In normal-land, Tacticals can rapid-fire, single-shot at 24", and use their heavy weapons for selected support. In "we're being assaulted!" land, they can't use rapid-fire, can't single-shot at 24", and can't use their heavy weapons. Nor can they score, effectively, as mired in an assault the point is very likely contested. Worse-yet, they are ill-suited for focused assault: one attack apiece at WS4 means they'll be whiffing more than anybody is comfortable admitting (so unbecoming a Space Marine). Getting assaulted sucks.

 

So that's why you might want assault marines. ^_^ The lack of a pack means they can fit into transports as needed and zip around the field, offering this support. Don't sweat the sitting still and waiting in the Rhino part. Khorne Bezerkers have been doing it for years.

[Reinholt]

I get why you take assault marines; notice the rest of my post. What I don't get is why you take assault marines without a mobility advantage. If you want to lock armies in assault you need to either have speed or flood the field with units to prevent evasion. Having a dire aventer squad falling back repeatedly and shooting your packless assault marines is not fun.

 

So what I am asking is ultimately the rationale to take assault marines without packs, as the thread suggests? A single unit moving on foot or in a transport they cannot assault out of is not going to reliably lock up shooting units in assault.

[Koremu]

So what I am asking is ultimately the rationale to take assault marines without packs, as the thread suggests? A single unit moving on foot or in a transport they cannot assault out of is not going to reliably lock up shooting units in assault.

If you put 10 Jump Pack Marines on the table alongside a bunch of Rhinos, they will draw fire.

 

If you put those same 10 Marines inside a (free) Rhino, they are much more likely to survive.

 

And Drop Pods are faster & put the Assault Marines into Assault range faster (albeit at the cost of putting them into harms way faster too)

[thade]

So what I am asking is ultimately the rationale to take assault marines without packs, as the thread suggests? A single unit moving on foot or in a transport they cannot assault out of is not going to reliably lock up shooting units in assault.

If you put 10 Jump Pack Marines on the table alongside a bunch of Rhinos, they will draw fire.

 

If you put those same 10 Marines inside a (free) Rhino, they are much more likely to survive.

^This. :mellow:

[MagicMan]

Thats why you'd put the jump pack marines behind the rhinos. Then they won't draw any fire at all...

[maturin]

I play in low-ish point games (1500) and at that level, it's sometimes hard to take more than one or two rhinos. Having a unit that can take another rhino (for free!) can really help in overloading my opponent's anti-transport firepower. With one or two rhinos, jumping assault marines would still get shot to heck and back. Better to be in an armored shell in this case.

[thade]

Thats why you'd put the jump pack marines behind the rhinos. Then they won't draw any fire at all...

How many times have you fielded Jump Marine? ;) No offense; I just find that my jump troops ALWAYS take fire, even if they are getting a cover save. Putting them in Rhinos means Rhinos get focused...and they may or may not get hit (instead of being weirdly prioritized).

[Koremu]

10 PA bodies is too many to hide behind one Rhino, and not easy to hide behind two.

[MagicMan]

10 PA bodies is too many to hide behind one Rhino, and not easy to hide behind two.

 

Yes, maybe, but i wasn't being literal.

 

Unless you're playing on an empty board, there are plenty of places to hide as you advance. And if not, i don't think it'd be too difficult to hide them behind two horizontally placed Rhinos.

 

I generally combat squad the unit when i use them, anyway, its a lot easier to hide 5 in two places than 10 in one.

 

 

How many times have you fielded Jump Marine? ;) No offense; I just find that my jump troops ALWAYS take fire, even if they are getting a cover save. Putting them in Rhinos means Rhinos get focused...and they may or may not get hit (instead of being weirdly prioritized).

 

 

 

 

Lots, hah.

 

Fair enough if you find putting them in a Rhino works for you, but im with Reinholt on this. Id always take them with their packs.

 

Jumping out of a rhino to spend a turn getting shot and then moving around at walking pace doesn't sound like a good plan to me.