Packless Assault Marines

[maturin]

You can assault out of a rhino - just get out before the rhino moves. It's tricky to do and requires you to bait your opponent, but it can be done. Just so you know you don't have to sit around and get shot.

[Reinholt]

8" threat range vs. 18" threat range in a single turn is very different, though. Getting out of a rhino greatly limits your reach, even tricking the enemy coming to you, much less straight line races. Not to say it can't be done, but I'd rather use a much harder hitting hitting unit coming out to counter assault.

 

Huge mobility difference, especially when you most need it.

[thade]

8" threat range vs. 18" threat range in a single turn is very different, though. Getting out of a rhino greatly limits your reach, even tricking the enemy coming to you, much less straight line races. Not to say it can't be done, but I'd rather use a much harder hitting hitting unit coming out to counter assault.

 

Huge mobility difference, especially when you most need it.

I don't mean to pick on you here, Reinholt, but this exact thinking causes the deaths of MANY assault marines and sours players towards them. If you REALLY need to take something out and they're right for the job...ask yourself if they'll be recoverable after they do it. How can you facilitate their recovery? Support them?

 

Once the Assault Marines jump 18" past your gunline, they're probably going to die. Jump Packs are awesome for one thing, in my opinion: flank charges. There's only one bonus to a "flank charge" in 40k, and that's the sheer increase in number of models you can get into BtB when you rush in and you're doing so not through the tactical squad that just got bum rushed. Jump over the fight then charge into the fight. Packs also allow them to maneuver quickly around back field so they can support the gun line where assaults are taking place.

 

Jump Packs can get you way ahead of everybody else...but then that assault team WILL die...possibly even before they kill anything themselves. Keep this in mind when throwing JPs on them.

[DarkGuard]

8" threat range vs. 18" threat range in a single turn is very different, though. Getting out of a rhino greatly limits your reach, even tricking the enemy coming to you, much less straight line races. Not to say it can't be done, but I'd rather use a much harder hitting hitting unit coming out to counter assault.

 

Huge mobility difference, especially when you most need it.

 

Not 8", but 14". It's not that massive. As long as you haven't moved the Rhino you can disembark 2", move 6", and then assault another 6". So 14". Only 4" behind. What you're sacrificing isn't really threat range, but the ability to counter-attack easily. It's harder to counter-attack from a Rhino than an assault vehicle or using a jump pack, but you are less vulnerable to firepower in the Rhino.

 

And in reply to something someone said amount quantity of attacks vs quality, I think it was Shadowstalker Grim, can I just say you should strike Honour Guard off that list :rolleyes:. Used properly (ie. Idaho pattern) you're getting 20 power weapon attacks and 10 relic blade attacks on the charge with a full squad. On the charge with Assault Marines (assuming fist and flamers), you get 25 normal attacks on the charge and 3 power fist attacks. But you do get 8 bolt pistols and two flamer shots beforehand as opposed to 5 bolt pistols, and the Assault squad is cheaper ^_^.

[Koremu]

8" threat range vs. 18" threat range in a single turn is very different, though. Getting out of a rhino greatly limits your reach, even tricking the enemy coming to you, much less straight line races. Not to say it can't be done, but I'd rather use a much harder hitting hitting unit coming out to counter assault.

 

Huge mobility difference, especially when you most need it.

 

Not 8", but 14". It's not that massive. As long as you haven't moved the Rhino you can disembark 2", move 6", and then assault another 6". So 14". Only 4" behind. What you're sacrificing isn't really threat range, but the ability to counter-attack easily. It's harder to counter-attack from a Rhino than an assault vehicle or using a jump pack, but you are less vulnerable to firepower in the Rhino.

And there's the factor that the JP Assault Squad would have been hiding behind a Rhino, which puts them 4" furthe back

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Yeah it was me!

 

You're right on that front, actually many other units do have a lot of attacks, but they can lack bodies...perhaps thats more what I was hoping to convey...

[DarkGuard]

Yeah it was me!

 

You're right on that front, actually many other units do have a lot of attacks, but they can lack bodies...perhaps thats more what I was hoping to convey...

 

Certainly, but it's pretty much just the Honour Guard (I've turned into a bit of an Honour Guard fanatic). Vanguard and Terminators with proper load out will only tend to have a similar amount of attacks in large squad sizes, while Command squads can't hope to match. So either more points spent, or as you say, less attacks and bodies, so certainly a valid point :rolleyes:.

[MagicMan]

I don't mean to pick on you here, Reinholt, but this exact thinking causes the deaths of MANY assault marines and sours players towards them. If you REALLY need to take something out and they're right for the job...ask yourself if they'll be recoverable after they do it. How can you facilitate their recovery? Support them?

 

This is something of a silly statement. ''This unit is terrible, because after they've destroyed a unit in CC they'll be vulnerable.''

 

Welcome to the world of assault units.

 

And, to put them in comparision with the Rhino mounted unit, they have exactly the same problem.

 

The Rhino can come and pick them up, and they can jump out and assault something next turn if the rhino doesn't move, but they'll still need to wait until the next turn, and then spend a turn getting inside the rhino.

 

The jump pack equipped squad can hop directly over a building to get out of LoS, or they can jump straight into combat with someone else.

 

Once the Assault Marines jump 18" past your gunline, they're probably going to die.

 

I don't see why...? Surely you can say that about any unit. Maybe space marine players in general aren't great at this, but there are PLENTY of places to hide a unit that can move 12'' over any piece of terrain.

 

When you play something like nids, you get a little better at seeking out every scrap of cover.

 

And generally, assault marines aren't targeted heavily in my experience. And even if they were, they'd have to be staring down a hefty amount of the opponents army to be wiped out.

 

Jump Packs can get you way ahead of everybody else...but then that assault team WILL die...possibly even before they kill anything themselves. Keep this in mind when throwing JPs on them.

 

 

Silly statement again, for reasons outlined above.

 

Don't take dreadnoughts, they have good weapon options BUT THEY WILL DIE, because your opponent will target them first.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think its because if you move an assault squad out of the range of support elements it becomes vulnerable, the enemy can gun them down or get into assault and worry less about the repurcussions as they are not neccessarily able to help anymore. Admittedly moving any squad out the range of support elements is a risky move, but it has its uses. I wouldn't say it guarantees their death, but if a unit leaped right into the middle of my army, it'd be hard not to just blow that unit out of the water...

[MagicMan]

Yeah, i can understand what Thades saying, but i just think its a silly argument against the use of Jumpacks.

 

 

I could argue that any unit in the game is rubbish if you don't support it, and leave it out in the face of the enemy armies entire gunline.

 

 

I think the main thing for me is that an assault squad with JP's can find its protection from the enemy guns by jumping over and around cover, and being able to more easily leap into assault.

 

With a Rhino, the rhino stops, you get out and kill something. You spend a turn waiting, you get back in the rhino, next turn if the rhino doesn't move, you can get out and assault again. Thats three turns with two assaults, compared to the three assaults in three turns with the JP's. Assuming everything goes exactly your way.

 

If Rhino assault squads work well for you Thade, then more power to you. B)

[thade]

Silly statement again, for reasons outlined above.

You are a silly statement. No, seriously...how does one respond to that? :P

 

Perhaps you misunderstood me? Let me see if I understand you. I assert that Assault Squads can be better leveraged if they are not used as suicide squads; you seem assert that their entire purpose is to be suicide squads. Is that what you are saying? If so, I disagree with you.

 

I always endeavor to soften targets up with rapid-fire before sending in my "clean up crew", which is either an assault team or a Vanguard. If I send in the melee boys before shooting the unit, I expect to be in that combat at least two phases, if not three or four: I'm using marine durability to lock something down.

 

Throwing 200 to 300 points away on killing a single 200 to 300 point unit is silly. Using that same unit to assist in killing even one more unit, that's a smarter way to roll, I think.

 

EDIT: I am not recommending against the usage of Jump Packs. I am arguing against what I perceive to be the typical usage of Jump Packs. Also, the point of the thread was to discuss the merits of packless Assault Marines, so that was the angle I was taking.

[MagicMan]

I just don't get why you're calling them suicide squads, you seem to be advocating putting them in rhinos because otherwise they have to leap forward unsupported into the enemies gunsights to get shot. :/

 

 

The benefit of packless Assault squad in Rhinos seems to be extra protection, but in my eyes it also takes away their advantages, mobility/ability to assault in the first place.

 

 

Ill try out a packless assault squad in a Rhino this weekend, see how it fares. Maybe it will make them more effective.

[thade]

I just don't get why you're calling them suicide squads, you seem to be advocating putting them in rhinos because otherwise they have to leap forward unsupported into the enemies gunsights to get shot. :/

Nonono. Okay, miscommuncation: I see thee and I shall smite thee.

 

Jump Packs are awesome provided they are used for back-field mobility and jumping over the gunline you're hiding them behind so they can get a flank charge (or intercept a charge).

 

Rhinos are awesome in that you have mobile cover for the squad (in that they can hide behind it or inside of it) and can use the empty box to Tank Shock! separate enemy units and cut off potential enemy counter-charges.

 

They are each useful for their own venues. I took the pro-packless angle in this thread because that was the question..."Are packless assault marines effective?" My answer is "They definitely can be."

 

Any criticism I've leveled at jump marines was purely because they are so often mis-used that they get an unfair rap. People use jump marines as if they're Hammernators, charging them in all alone and then they're disappointed when the squad gets annihilated by enemy focus-fire. I think using jump marines as gun-line support is both sound and effective.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

To be fair Thade, I think thats partly the assault marines fault. They don't do exactly as they suggest on the tin...well they do and they don't.

 

They are much more melee oriented, but they aren't our go to boys for close combat. Their lack of upgrades in the weaponry department forces us to go elsewhere for that (like to vanguard or hammernators etc) so to an unexperienced player just picking one up they might well assume that these boys can tango with any enemy and are best used rushing forwards into a death edfying charge. Hence the high suicide rate.

 

They are more like assault weapon squads, or sweeper squads. They don't bring the melee pain like other squads do, but they finish up the jobs other units start.

[thade]

To be fair Thade, I think thats partly the assault marines fault. They don't do exactly as they suggest on the tin...well they do and they don't.

I whole-heartedly concur with this analysis. I feel the same way about "Vanguard"...they - like assault troops - are definitely NOT the guys that should be far ahead, first in, deep and alone.

 

They are more like assault weapon squads, or sweeper squads. They don't bring the melee pain like other squads do, but they finish up the jobs other units start.

"Sweeper Squad" is a great way of looking at them.

[MagicMan]

Fair enough Thade, apologies for misconstruing what you were saying.

 

 

 

I personally am a big fan of assault squads, but then my main opponents are Ork + IG.

 

Combat squadding one unit, the Powerfist Sarge + 4 Marines can mop up small/damaged squads or go after vehicles in a pinch, while the other 5 with two flamers can hunt down light infantry and burn people off of objectives.

 

Easier to hide two small squads, too... :D

[thade]

Fair enough Thade, apologies for misconstruing what you were saying.

It was my bad. I could've been clearer, I'm sure.

[Reinholt]

Having used assault marines quite a bit, I've always had better luck with the ones with packs. Though to respond to a few points:

 

1 - I don't like to have a "line". I find that linear playing often fails to maximize the real value of marines, and adopting a strategic style that is more open, free flowing, unpredictable, and less regimented lends value to the army on the board when constructed appropriately. When possible and efficient, I also like that maneuverability to be self-contained, which is a fancy way of saying I don't like transports that can be blown out from under my guys where possible. The rhino theory is all well and good until a game where it gets blown up very early happens.

 

2 - If you are going to stretch your assault squad out unsupported, it needs to be because the benefit outweighs the cost, not because you got ahead of yourself and didn't have enough restraint to use a unit appropriately. There are times when your assault squad eventually being lost or crippled is not the worst thing in the world, and those times are often when pinning a vicious shooting unit in place is worth more to you than a living assault squad.

 

3 - Part of the difference is that I've never really considered the assault squad to be a top-tier assault unit. To me, their real value is similar to a faster but less tough version of plague marines: you get there and stick to something. It's like throwing a giant ball of tar at an enemy unit. You can lock them in place unless they are a vicious close combat unit, and then the enemy either needs to run something in to scrape them off, or you can deliver your own hammer while guys are locked down. Often, they are also safer in assault than being shot at.

 

4 - Usage of cover is key for getting the most out of these guys. I know it was mentioned above, but I will re-iterate here. Also, if you play on planet pool table or some other xenos locale with no terrain, I see why you would prefer the rhino. I'm usually on boards with a lot of terrain, so that might color my perception somewhat; either way, having appropriate battlefields is very handy. Especially because your foe will often be trying to use the same terrain only to catch a marine to the face as a result.

[thade]

I don't like to have a "line".

I don't line my guys up in a straight and orderly fashion; I keep them very near each other to maximize their support of one another. My force is either one group (the porcupine) or two groups (hammer and anvil, or two stand-alone elements)...each of these groups is composed of 1-3 shooting units and 0-2 assault units. Assault units may be behind the shooting units or off to the side...it may not be a "line" so much as a spaced-out cluster.

 

2 - If you are going to stretch your assault squad out unsupported, it needs to be because the benefit outweighs the cost, not because you got ahead of yourself....

 

3 - Part of the difference is that I've never really considered the assault squad to be a top-tier assault unit.....

Certainly. Your points here are valid and are not the issues I was alluding to (where the assault unit jumps in "just to kill something with chainswords").

 

4 - Also, if you play on planet pool table or some other xenos locale with no terrain, I see why you would prefer the rhino.

Can't ever predict, right? ;) Tournament settings have all sorts of tables, from citys/ruins, to canyons, to plains, to crater-filled moonscapes. Honestly in tournament lists (especially things like Ardboyz where I have the space in my list) I have brought both...Rhino-mounted packless assault marines and jump teams. Rhinos are good for cover, jump packs are good for persistent mobility.

[Vagrant]

they really shine within a vulkan list, tbch. either setup really. load up on flamers, a powerfist on the sarge and you are taking alot of infantry. though i do prefer packs because they are fun and give a little flavor on the field.

[Laughingdagger]

they really shine within a vulkan list, tbch. either setup really. load up on flamers, a powerfist on the sarge and you are taking alot of infantry. though i do prefer packs because they are fun and give a little flavor on the field.

Thunder hammer, say it with me, thunder hammer on the sargent. ^_^

[thade]

Haha, they are only a few more points. :P

 

EDIT: Redacted the numeric point value. <3

[GreatEscape_13]

And devs tend to be overpriced, especially when compared to long fangs!

 

I can't compare to long fangs, as I don't have lightning bolts and a howling wolf painted on a van--and thus go with C:SM.

 

Seriously though, I'm not sure cross-codex comparisons are so helpful. Yeah, long fangs are better. But if I wanted long fangs I would be playing Space Wolves (and growing a mullet and wearing a Canadian tuxedo and rocking a sweet guitar lick with every shooting phase... am I being too harsh on Space Wolves?).

 

I'm a plain, boring guy... and thus plain C:SM is where I have to make my comparison. I think that considering a Predator or Vindicator vs. Devastators is a better way to make claims about them being overpriced. And in that realm, I still find that a 10-man with 4 heavy bolters is too solid a firebase to go without.

 

As to the original post--I've been considering a packless assault marine squad for mounting inside a Land Raider w/ a character. Can assault when emerging, solid conveyance, good attacks, and 2 flamers means nice saturation of whatever unit I'm about to strike. But I always get distracted by other stuff before I can get to these... Fun in theory, but low on my priority list.

 

Cheers.

[GreatEscape_13]

Ack. Double post!

 

So... um...

 

Thunder hammer, say it with me, thunder hammer on the sargent.

 

I can't ever do it. All i can think of is the Indian soft drink Thums Up...

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/Thums_up_logo.jpg

 

... which I heard as "taste the Tunder" rather than Thunder when I was visiting India... So now Thunderhammers are Tunderhammers, which is just too snicker-worthy for me to actually field any of them.

 

Cheers.

 

Edited: because I'm a double-posting fool.

[Bannus]

I personally am a big fan of assault squads, but then my main opponents are Ork + IG.

I think this is a point that has not been emphasized.

 

40K is a game of rock-paper-scissors. If your opponent comes at you with a rock, you hit him with paper. If you have a rock, you go after his scissors.

 

Assault Squads really shine against weakly armored opponents. But get bogged down against heavy infantry. Assault Squads will struggle against other power armor armies. That is the price for being good at everything, but not excelling at anything.