The Emperor's Geneseed

[Codicier Lucion]

If the Grey Knights use the Emperor's geneseed and are truly incorruptable and pure and act only out of faith in the Emperor, why aren't there more of them? Normal chapters stay around 1500-2000 marines out of adherence to the codex or respect for one of its guiding principles - that being the desire to prevent heresy from leading to large-scale civil war again - but if the Grey Knights have literally never lost a single member to heresy and are theoretically or even practically immune to corruption then surely that restriction should not apply to them. Their mandate comes not from Guilliman's codex but from Malcador or even the Emperor himself. They have a massive recruiting base, considering how many psykers are collected by the black ships, and they've had 10,000 years (not counting time spent in the warp) to build up their numbers from the security of Titan. Why wouldn't they be Great Crusade-era legion strength at least?

Because Matt Ward has fallen in love with Codex and forces it on every SM codex he is making. Look at BAs, their codex reads like they are more codex than Ultras'.

 

Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day.

 

Sorry, i've been waiting to use that quote for some time now. The other quote in my sig speaks volumes about his view on non codex chapters as well.

[antique_nova]

The ultramarines are too stubborn to realise that they would be better off trying to relocate some of their bases closer to earth to bringing their 'Purity' to Holy Terra.

 

This is slightly off topic, why did the Imperial Fists become the Emperor's bodyguard instead of the ultra marines or sons of Horus?

 

thanks

antique_nova

[esinhorn]

I was always led to believe Primarchs were way different during the scene in False Gods when the head Apothecary did not even know where to begin helping Horus because his insides were very different than anything he has ever seen before.

[Iron_Adam]

I think imprial fists took that role because they specialize in estBlishing fortifications maybe? Maybe it had something specific to do with Dorn? He does seem to take the place of Horus as favorite son after the heresy comes to light

[Oiad]

It's not exactly a bad school of thought considering how powerful they are they'd never be allowed in the game. Especially after what we saw of them in First Heretic and other novels.

Despite the few Heresy novels where they're let loose, Custodes aren't built to be an all-conquering force. I doubt we'll ever see them supported by GW as such. Still, if fanatics want to fantasise about wanting someone outdoing Grey Knights then they can fantasise... I do like the Custodians but I just can't understand what these players have against the GKs in the first place and why there's a need to always go one better. :lol:

 

Are you talking about the Knights or Custodes here?

Garro & Co.

 

If he wanted something truly perfect he would have just directly cloned himself multiple times rather than perform the genetic manipulation and editing he did. If the Emperor can just add a few cells and some genetic material, gene seed, to someone to make them immune to the corruption of the warp then the primarchs would have already been immune before they were swept across the galaxy.

Well that wasn't really his aim and likely even harder to correctly pull off. Fans talk about genetics like it's some simple process. Does simply 'adding cells' make someone immune? Few fans seem to consider that there could be a large dilemma with putting purity 'in a tin' and keeping it there. I think the Emperor found the process elusive and just when he thought he'd achieved it with the Primarchs it turned out to be a failure after all. The Grey Knights seem like an improvement in this area (probably not too far off from the concoction of the Custodes) but no-one can really say for sure if both of these will ever remain pure either.

 

Considering they seem to be something he threw together in the last few years of the Heresy, assuming he even knew Malcador was forming such a force in the Imperium, it would be difficult for them to be as perfect as the new codex presents them to be. In addition to this, skipping the primarch element would make it faster but it would probably make their 'incorruptibility' weaker. The primarchs were experimented upon from before birth and were directly born with his genes in them rather than being manipulated at puberty and having new organs shoved in them.

Why would it make them 'weaker'? It's assumptions all over. The Primarchs were shown to be corruptible regardless of how they were made. Following their example again could be as likely asking for more trouble.

 

Please don't give Ward ideas. Draigo's bad enough without the next codex claiming he's a 'new primarch' as well.

You kidding? Draigo already swats down Primarchs and Greater Daemons for lunch. Why would he want to debase the brilliance of his lineage with such an inferior legacy? :P

 

You misunderstand, I meant use it for the Thousand Sons. If he already was aware of the risks Magnus was taking, had access to this and knew of the anti psycher sentiment then he could have just used the Grey Knight gene-seed in them instead. Both making them invulnerable to corruption, at least according to Ward's stuff, and replacing Magnus' unstable one. In addition to this he did have a battle ready force of Grey Knights; the Custodes, who from what we know based upon the new fluff would be unaffected by corrupting influences.

Assuming that he had all the answers and knew all the outcomes? I don't think the Emperor expected Magnus to be drawn so easily and that he'd remain loyal to his instructions.

 

Overall, it's much safer to see the Emperor as some scientist always experimenting away - always looking for the answer but never quite getting it right, rather than an omni-prescient authority who could do what he liked. He can be fooled, he makes mistakes and some times as with the Primarchs he had to backtrack and try again.

 

Lastly, ever get this feeling the Dark Gods were thinking, “Why corrupt a boring Custodian when you can have more fun with an all-conquering Primarch!?!” Whether they too will remain uncorrupted like their allies on Titan remains to be seen.

[NightrawenII]

Close, but not quite. You don't need the organs to clone them and make gene-seed. You need "unspecified genetic samples". So, naw, I was dead on.

 

As I said, regarding the Grey Knights: "The Emperor didn't use primarch DNA when he made their gene-seed. He used his own DNA to make the gene-seed organs."

 

EDIT: Primarchs, like the Emperor, aren't supersized Space Marines with all the same stuff inside them. They're their own species, almost. That's the key to remember. Their DNA was used to manufacture the Space Marines (through template organ implant badassery), and the Emperor (arguably) perfected the process with the Grey Knights. But, like the Emperor himself, the primarchs aren't basically Space Marines But Bigger. Their genetic construction is waaaaay different.

I know that and I said so, however your argument walks in circles. - Where do you get these "unspecified genetic samples", huh? :lol:

 

The Primarchs were developed, using the data and experience gained in the creation of Custodes and the Reunification Wars. The Emperor used his own DNA to create them, each of them was further modified, but anyway...

The Primarch's gene strands were then used as templates in the gene-seed research and development.

 

So, in order for Grey Knights to not have a Primarch, you have to reinvent the gene-seed, while skipping the entire Primarch part. And if you take Emperor's DNA and modify it to produce a gene-seed organs, then it's not Emperor's DNA anymore, right? For all intents and purposes, you end up with the SAME result like previously. Like I said, the Emperor's gene-seed is fallacy.

[A D-B]

Close, but not quite. You don't need the organs to clone them and make gene-seed. You need "unspecified genetic samples". So, naw, I was dead on.

 

As I said, regarding the Grey Knights: "The Emperor didn't use primarch DNA when he made their gene-seed. He used his own DNA to make the gene-seed organs."

 

EDIT: Primarchs, like the Emperor, aren't supersized Space Marines with all the same stuff inside them. They're their own species, almost. That's the key to remember. Their DNA was used to manufacture the Space Marines (through template organ implant badassery), and the Emperor (arguably) perfected the process with the Grey Knights. But, like the Emperor himself, the primarchs aren't basically Space Marines But Bigger. Their genetic construction is waaaaay different.

I know that and I said so, however your argument walks in circles. - Where do you get these "unspecified genetic samples", huh? B)

 

Blood. Flesh. Whatever. The skin cells of a cheek, for all we know. However people collect DNA and genetic material. Whatever the Emperor had left lying around after the primarchs flew away. Whatever of his own DNA he decided to use later on.

 

The Primarchs were developed, using the data and experience gained in the creation of Custodes and the Reunification Wars. The Emperor used his own DNA to create them, each of them was further modified, but anyway...

The Primarch's gene strands were then used as templates in the gene-seed research and development.

 

So, in order for Grey Knights to not have a Primarch, you have to reinvent the gene-seed, while skipping the entire Primarch part. And if you take Emperor's DNA and modify it to produce a gene-seed organs, then it's not Emperor's DNA anymore, right? For all intents and purposes, you end up with the SAME result like previously. Like I said, the Emperor's gene-seed is fallacy.

 

I don't really get what you're disagreeing with, here. It's a matter of semantics. They still call it "Rogal Dorn's gene-seed", even though it's actually "organs inside my body based on Rogal Dorn's DNA". It appears to be the exact same process with the Grey Knights, except using the Emperor's DNA instead of a primarch's DNA. It effectively just makes the Emperor the "primarch" of the Grey Knights.

 

A Word Bearer's gene-seed is made with Lorgar's DNA.

 

A Grey Knight's gene-seed is made with the Emperor's DNA.

 

That's pretty much it. As I said in my first post: "None of the primarchs had gene-seed in their bodies, in the sense that it was "stuff" to be taken out and implanted elsewhere. When a Space Marine says "I am of Rogal Dorn's gene-seed", they don't mean they have gene-seed from Rogal Dorn's body inside them, they mean that their Chapter's gene-seed was originally created and grown in a lab, using Rogal Dorn's DNA."

 

Missing a primarch out of the process doesn't change much at all. A primarch is just a subspecies of human, used as a source of genetic material. Gene-seed is grown from their DNA. The Emperor used himself for the Grey Knights instead. Gene-seed is grown from his DNA.

 

It's, like, no different.

[greatcrusade08]

i cant quite agree with nightrawen here.. the 'gene seed' were developed externally of the primarch project, thier DNA was injected into them sure, but they could have worked without that..

As proven by the fact that they created 2o different types of geen-seed for the twenty different primarches. (genetically speaking)

 

whats more realistic is that they created biologically neutral organs/implants and injected the DNA during the vat growth process.

we know they started with the lions, they then created a batch of implants for each primarch.. given the chicken and egg argument with progenoids they must have created all 19 implants seperately for each of the first few thousand marines of each legion.

 

so creating gene-seed was hardly diffcult back then, how difficult would it be to create a further thousand sets using a different DNA strand as its base?

 

The DNa has no bearing on how the gene-seed itself works, so for all intents and purposes i doubt its even necessary, but what it does do is tie the legions to thier primarches by blood and genetics, a bond not unlike father and son, which the emperor himself shares with the primarches.

by inputting his DNa into the primarches and thier DNA into the legions, hes pretty much establishing a legacy which can never be truelly destroyed..

[A D-B]

To put it even simpler:

 

SERVITOR 1 is tasked with bioengineering gene-seed implants for Space Marines. One day, THE EMPEROR walks in and gives him a blood sample.

 

"This is from my son, the Lion. Make gene-seed organs from this, and we'll cook up some Space Marines."

 

SERVITOR 1 goes "Okay, boss." He creates gene-seed organs in the labs based on the Lion's DNA, and they make some Space Marines.

 

A few years later, THE EMPEROR comes in with another blood sample. He says "This is from me. Make gene-seed organs from this, and we'll cook up some more Space Marines."

 

SERVITOR 1 goes "Okay, boss" again, and they make some other Space Marines. These ones have gene-seed based on the Emperor's DNA, not his sons' DNA, and are much better.

 

That's literally it.

[NightrawenII]

I don't really get what you're disagreeing with, here. It's a matter of semantics. They still call it "Rogal Dorn's gene-seed", even though it's actually "organs inside my body based on Rogal Dorn's DNA". It appears to be the exact same process with the Grey Knights, except using the Emperor's DNA instead of a primarch's DNA. It effectively just makes the Emperor the "primarch" of the Grey Knights.

 

A Word Bearer's gene-seed is made with Lorgar's DNA.

 

A Grey Knight's gene-seed is made with the Emperor's DNA.

 

That's pretty much it. As I said in my first post: "None of the primarchs had gene-seed in their bodies, in the sense that it was "stuff" to be taken out and implanted elsewhere. When a Space Marine says "I am of Rogal Dorn's gene-seed", they don't mean they have gene-seed from Rogal Dorn's body inside them, they mean that their Chapter's gene-seed was originally created and grown in a lab, using Rogal Dorn's DNA."

 

Missing a primarch out of the process doesn't change much at all. A primarch is just a subspecies of human, used as a source of genetic material. Gene-seed is grown from their DNA. The Emperor used himself for the Grey Knights instead. Gene-seed is grown from his DNA.

 

It's, like, no different.

No, you ignore the fact that the Primarch has modified DNA to the point of not being a human. The Emperor has the human DNA. - It's leap in logic that if you can use the DNA of bio-engineered creature in process of creation of modified humans(= Astartes), you can also use the DNA of absolutely normal human.

 

My point is, the gene-seed works on premise that certain functions of the Primarch's altered biology can be reused as the template in the creation of genetically modified humans, the Adeptus Astartes. Space Marine is weaker copy of the Primarch's own body.

 

Source(s) of the above theory:

It is likely that only the Emperor himself knows the truth. What is known is that after this date [disappearance of Primarchs] he turned his hand to genetically enhancing and modifying Human subjects using the template of the lost Primarchs gene strands. In this way the first Space Marine legions were created and it was they who accompanied the Emperor on his reconquest of the galaxy.

~ Index Astartes, Dark Angels

 

and

It was found that the genetic data of the Primarchs could be used to greatly speed up the development of the organs and genetic material needed to make a Space Marine, and the event known as the First Founding occurred.

~ Index Astartes, Rites of Initiation

 

Edit:

whats more realistic is that they created biologically neutral organs/implants and injected the DNA during the vat growth process.

*snip*

The DNA has no bearing on how the gene-seed itself works...

Ahem, but WHAT?????

The DNA has bearing how the cells itself work and function. You cannot create the organism without DNA, it's oxymoron.

[A D-B]

My point is, the gene-seed works on premise that certain functions of the Primarch's altered biology can be reused as the template in the creation of genetically modified humans, the Adeptus Astartes. Space Marine is weaker copy of the Primarch's own body.

 

Ah, I see what your assumption is based on now.

 

Naw, that's not quite true, really. A Space Marine's body is an enhanced human form, specifically enhanced by the implantation of organs grown (and enhanced in kind) by being developed from primarch DNA. It's not exactly a weaker copy of a primarch's body; it's the best the Emperor could do with a human as his clay. In fact, there seems to be very little similar between a primarch and his gene-sons. Different abilities. Apothecaries dealing with primarchs have had no idea what to do, because they're nothing like humans or Space Marines.

 

Which is why the Emperor can also use his own DNA to the same effect, without the need for a middle section in the process. Hence, the Grey Knights.

 

Essentially, it seems to be either:

 

1. A refinement of the process, whereby the Emperor takes all he learned from the creation of the primarchs; the proto-Astartes; the Custodians and the Space Marines, and turns his hand to "getting it right" by making the Grey Knights.

 

2. A 'back to the drawing board' deal, where he decided that it needed a totally new process in the creation of gene-seed, rather than drawing it from any one source.

 

3. (The theory I find most likely), is that there's just a teeny-tiny slice of the Emperor's DNA added to Some Mysterious New Gene-Seed, to make the Grey Knights.

 

But whichever way, there's no need for supposition or theories. Cutting out the middleman in terms of making Space Marine gene-seed is really no more trouble than the Emperor using his blood in his ultrascience, rather than the blood of his sons. Of course, that's "no trouble" in a relative sense. I bet it took his ultrascience to new levels, and I'm sure it was harder than my GCSE Science exam, like.

[NightrawenII]

Ah, I see what your assumption is based on now.

 

Naw, that's not quite true, really. A Space Marine's body is an enhanced human form, specifically enhanced by the implantation of organs grown (and enhanced in kind) by being developed from primarch DNA. It's not exactly a weaker copy of a primarch's body; it's the best the Emperor could do with a human as his clay. In fact, there seems to be very little similar between a primarch and his gene-sons. Different abilities. Apothecaries dealing with primarchs have had no idea what to do, because they're nothing like humans or Space Marines.

Explain:

It was found that the genetic data of the Primarchs could be used to greatly speed up the development of the organs and genetic material needed to make a Space Marine, and the event known as the First Founding occurred.

~ Index Astartes, Rites of Initiation

[greatcrusade08]

whats more realistic is that they created biologically neutral organs/implants and injected the DNA during the vat growth process.

*snip*

The DNA has no bearing on how the gene-seed itself works...

Ahem, but WHAT?????

The DNA has bearing how the cells itself work and function. You cannot create the organism without DNA, it's oxymoron.

 

actually your wrong... biology lesson incoming.. a cell can be created using proteins that has no DNA, we call these stem cells from which all organs and whatnot can be created.. stem cells can also be harvested from DNa containing cells which is why scientists can currently clone some body parts for specific individuals

in fact red blood cells when matured carry NO DNA

 

i would suggest using todays knowledge and trying to understand the processess that stem cells are involved, but even if not th theory is sound.. dont get hung up on DNA, its possible to remove it froma cell and it will continue to live for a little while.

 

what im saying is the servitos/scientists have a 'blank/template' for all gene-seed and its a matter of adding the DNA..

the DNA itself has little bearing on what the organs/implants do.. however the DNA is important to the legion, just ask the blood angels..

 

its possible that implants are less tolerant to certain DNA which may explain the thousand sons..

 

edit: ill go one further and agree that DNA can affect certain aspects of the marines, but not the gene-seed they carry

[A D-B]

Ah, I see what your assumption is based on now.

 

Naw, that's not quite true, really. A Space Marine's body is an enhanced human form, specifically enhanced by the implantation of organs grown (and enhanced in kind) by being developed from primarch DNA. It's not exactly a weaker copy of a primarch's body; it's the best the Emperor could do with a human as his clay. In fact, there seems to be very little similar between a primarch and his gene-sons. Different abilities. Apothecaries dealing with primarchs have had no idea what to do, because they're nothing like humans or Space Marines.

Explain:

It was found that the genetic data of the Primarchs could be used to greatly speed up the development of the organs and genetic material needed to make a Space Marine, and the event known as the First Founding occurred.

~ Index Astartes, Rites of Initiation

 

Look, dude. That quote doesn't even back up your point, let alone invalidate mine. Yes, the Emperor found - at some point - that using primarch DNA was good juju in speeding up the process of making gene-seed organs. I know that. You know that. But... that's it. Great, it sped up the process. A single sentence about the whole deal. Awesome. I'm keen on slices of lore about a decade old, too. I understand how the First Founding worked. But it's irrelevant to the point. That's how the Twenty Legions were made. Absolutely. It's not how the Grey Knights, the Custodians, or any of the Emperor's other genetic projects were made, though. And that's the point.

 

There's nothing to argue over. I'm bemused it even made it this far. We can all accept the Custodians, the proto-Astartes, the primarchs and the Space Marines all being made by different methods, but one more is, like, a stretch too far?

 

The fact remains that, according to all our lore; according to the Grey Knights codex; according to every question I've asked of the IP wizzes, that it seems that the Emperor refined the process enough to use his DNA to make gene-seed, instead of using primarch DNA to make gene-seed. It's that simple.

 

I'm not saying I like it. I'm not even saying I find it likely, or that the Grey Knight novel I'm writing on my other monitor at this very moment is going to reference it. But I'm okay with accepting it as valid, because it fits in with the lore.

[A D-B]

Ah, I see what your assumption is based on now.

 

Naw, that's not quite true, really. A Space Marine's body is an enhanced human form, specifically enhanced by the implantation of organs grown (and enhanced in kind) by being developed from primarch DNA. It's not exactly a weaker copy of a primarch's body; it's the best the Emperor could do with a human as his clay. In fact, there seems to be very little similar between a primarch and his gene-sons. Different abilities. Apothecaries dealing with primarchs have had no idea what to do, because they're nothing like humans or Space Marines.

Explain:

It was found that the genetic data of the Primarchs could be used to greatly speed up the development of the organs and genetic material needed to make a Space Marine, and the event known as the First Founding occurred.

~ Index Astartes, Rites of Initiation

 

Oh, and directly referring to this:

 

FACT: Space Marines are implanted with organs that are enhanced by/grown from primarch DNA, making them superhuman. They're not copies of the organs. They're just genetic post-human organs made from DNA, tweaked further by sorcery (maybe) (technosorcery, maybe?) and science. Just because the DNA was used in the creation of the ultrascience organs doesn't, even for a second, mean the Space Marines are mini-primarchs, or weaker copies of them.

 

That's where this misunderstanding is coming from. He wasn't using the DNA to make copies of organs, but was using the DNA - and his own genius - to make the human form as good as he possibly could by enhancing organs and creating new ones. And when it came to the Grey Knights, he used his DNA, not a primarch's, to make the gene-seed organs. A different compound in the process. That's literally it.

 

Of course, that's if it's even true. But if it is, it would make the Emperor the "primarch" of sorts, of the Grey Knights. It's really not anymore complicated than that.

 

EDIT: Edited for clarity.

[Pulse]

A D-B laying down the pwn. ;)

 

I have to agree with A D-B on the points he made though - it is pretty simple and one that is pretty obvious. :)

 

Also, awesome that your writing a Grey Knights novel!

[A D-B]

A D-B laying down the pwn. :P

 

Naw, this stuff is just super-vague in the lore. I mean, I don't even reckon it's true, but it's what the GK codex suggests, and it's completely possible.

 

As usual, it's all about the possibilities.

 

 

Also, awesome that your writing a Grey Knights novel!

 

Yeah... Slooowwwwwwly. The Word.doc is called The Emperor's New Groove.docx.

[Pulse]

Hahaha loving the title - also the only disney film that made me cry with laughter. :P

 

Interesting that you don't think it is true though, i would personally say that is it more probable than a lot of other background pap we have read before.

[Noctus Cornix]

As much as I hate to admit it, I will have to agree with Aaron on this one. :P Allow me to put it in the way that I see it.

 

There is a recipe for creating the organ necessary to turn humans into Space Marines.

 

These organs are Created using DNA samples of the Primarchs, who are a completely different species altogether. (however both remain to be of the same genus)

 

These organs are then implanted into the human body, altering the human body and enhancing it with supernatural abilities. This does not make him a primarch, however the genetic alteration that the body undergoes could claim that he is no longer human either, but certainly not a primarch.

 

 

 

Instead, a sample of the Emperor's DNA, a being who is beyond human, space marine, and primarch alike, is used to cultivate these organs.

 

Its as simple as that. It is an altered form of stem cell research using DNA samples to create new organs and genetic alterations.

[Valkyrion]

Emperor makes people who make more people.

 

vs

 

Emperor makes people.

 

That it?

[A D-B]

As much as I hate to admit it, I will have to agree with Aaron on this one. :P Allow me to put it in the way that I see it.

 

There is a recipe for creating the organ necessary to turn humans into Space Marines.

 

These organs are Created using DNA samples of the Primarchs, who are a completely different species altogether. (however both remain to be of the same genus)

 

These organs are then implanted into the human body, altering the human body and enhancing it with supernatural abilities. This does not make him a primarch, however the genetic alteration that the body undergoes could claim that he is no longer human either, but certainly not a primarch.

 

 

 

Instead, a sample of the Emperor's DNA, a being who is beyond human, space marine, and primarch alike, is used to cultivate these organs.

 

Its as simple as that. It is an altered form of stem cell research using DNA samples to create new organs and genetic alterations.

 

This is it, word for word, exactly.

 

Now I'm totally going to pick up Katie from work, and finish this bloody chapter.

[Hyaenidae]

Yeah... Slooowwwwwwly. The Word.doc is called The Emperor's New Groove.docx.

 

*snort* As soon as you said that, I remembered this bit of awesomeness...

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs39/f/2008/356/1/8/Adeptus_Custodes_by_SanguineAngel.jpg

[NightrawenII]

actually your wrong... biology lesson incoming.. a cell can be created using proteins that has no DNA, we call these stem cells from which all organs and whatnot can be created.. stem cells can also be harvested from DNa containing cells which is why scientists can currently clone some body parts for specific individuals

in fact red blood cells when matured carry NO DNA

 

i would suggest using todays knowledge and trying to understand the processess that stem cells are involved, but even if not th theory is sound.. dont get hung up on DNA, its possible to remove it froma cell and it will continue to live for a little while.

Okey, I went on research of stem cells and...

*scratching on the head*

You are right about the red blood cells, but they cannot divide and have limited repair capabilities, which somewhat disqualifies them. And the stem cells are basically cells without purpose, so to speak. -_-

 

Oh, and directly referring to this:

 

FACT: Space Marines are implanted with organs that are enhanced by/grown from primarch DNA, making them superhuman. They're not copies of the organs. They're just genetic post-human organs made from DNA, tweaked further by sorcery (maybe) (technosorcery, maybe?) and science. Just because the DNA was used in the creation of the ultrascience organs doesn't, even for a second, mean the Space Marines are mini-primarchs, or weaker copies of them.

 

That's where this misunderstanding is coming from. He wasn't using the DNA to make copies of organs, but was using the DNA - and his own genius - to make the human form as good as he possibly could by enhancing organs and creating new ones. And when it came to the Grey Knights, he used his DNA, not a primarch's, to make the gene-seed organs. A different compound in the process. That's literally it.

 

Of course, that's if it's even true. But if it is, it would make the Emperor the "primarch" of sorts, of the Grey Knights. It's really not anymore complicated than that.

 

EDIT: Edited for clarity.

And that's what I don't understand. - Where he gets these organs? They are not in human body and by logic (if the Emperor wasn't caught by mad scientist or something) in Emperor's body.

Therefore you have to create them artificialy. Using my theory, this is where the Primarch comes in, the gene-seed copies *some* of the functions of the Primarch's enhanced biology and use them as the base or template for the alternation of human body. This is where we are stuck, the information how to create the organs is already, in one form or another, inprinted in primarch's DNA, he is genetically engineered creature after all. Everything what you need is 'slightly' modify its functioning and performance and voilá you have gene-seed. That's why you can use Primarch's genetic data for speed up the process.

 

You are misunderstanding and I admit it's my fault, my use of the term "copy". The Space Marine is not direct clone, mini-primarch or copy in its entirety, but it's using some similarities in the function, but with less effect.

 

In other words the Primarch and Marine are as similar as the bicycle and motorbike. Both of them are quite different, but you cannot say the motorbike is entirely different from bicycle.

 

+++++

Using Emperor's flesh in the creation of new gene-seed means that you have to rewrite the human DNA in order to produce the unique organs of Astartes.

OR

Remove certain bits of Primarch's heritage from the gene-seed and substitute them with the Emperor's genes.

 

The former case has rather questionable effect, since the same process was used in creation of primarchs.

The later case depends how the Emperor's abilities reflect his genetic make-up and vice versa.

[Generating Random Name...]

Oh, and directly referring to this:

And that's what I don't understand. - Where he gets these organs? They are not in human body and by logic (if the Emperor wasn't caught by mad scientist or something) in Emperor's body.

I would like to include a quote from Lexicanum:

 

He had first undertaken the Primarch Project, the creation of twenty infants from his own genetic code, designed to mature into powerful generals for his armies

Notice how it says 'From his own genetic code', now that makes me think that they are roughly clones of him, which handily enough this quote is about:

 

"It was begun in M29 with the aim to create 20 cloned 'children' of the Emperor"

 

So if we accept that both these facts are ture then it is entirely feasable (Imho) that the Emperor was able to use his Genetic data to create the Grey Knights. This does leave open the problem of their purity in realtion to the primarch's, but given that the GK are mind wiped upon induction, and are basically extremely Emperor faithful blank canvasses (sp?), whereas the Primarchs grew up on worlds, largely without knowing of the Emperor, and were undoubtable influenced by them, Curze and the Lion being extreme examples.

 

So in conclusion, to me at least, the GK are incorruptable because of their "Emperor's 'Geneseed'" and because of their unwavering faith. So, how does this sound?

 

GRN

[Artein]

So what's with Garro and his team? Were they not first Grey Knights? They did not have Emperor's gene-seed.