The Emperor's Geneseed

[Generating Random Name...]

So what's with Garro and his team? Were they not first Grey Knights? They did not have Emperor's gene-seed.

Intriguing, makes me think is it possible to add Genetic data, eg the Emperor's (as he does not have 'Geneseed'), without having adverse effects? Would it even do anything?

 

I suppose we'll have to see what happens with them, he doesn't have his full team yet, does he?

[Abaddonshand]

And that's what I don't understand. - Where he gets these organs? They are not in human body and by logic (if the Emperor wasn't caught by mad scientist or something) in Emperor's body.

Therefore you have to create them artificialy. Using my theory, this is where the Primarch comes in, the gene-seed copies *some* of the functions of the Primarch's enhanced biology and use them as the base or template for the alternation of human body. This is where we are stuck, the information how to create the organs is already, in one form or another, inprinted in primarch's DNA, he is genetically engineered creature after all. Everything what you need is 'slightly' modify its functioning and performance and voilá you have gene-seed. That's why you can use Primarch's genetic data for speed up the process.

 

You are misunderstanding and I admit it's my fault, my use of the term "copy". The Space Marine is not direct clone, mini-primarch or copy in its entirety, but it's using some similarities in the function, but with less effect.

 

In other words the Primarch and Marine are as similar as the bicycle and motorbike. Both of them are quite different, but you cannot say the motorbike is entirely different from bicycle.

 

+++++

Using Emperor's flesh in the creation of new gene-seed means that you have to rewrite the human DNA in order to produce the unique organs of Astartes.

OR

Remove certain bits of Primarch's heritage from the gene-seed and substitute them with the Emperor's genes.

 

The former case has rather questionable effect, since the same process was used in creation of primarchs.

The later case depends how the Emperor's abilities reflect his genetic make-up and vice versa.

 

This is where I think you've misinterpreted the fluff, the order of creation went as follows:

1. proto-astartes, being adult human soldiers who were genetically modified and had additional organs and bio-mechanical upgrades implanted, making them better at what they did, but prone to rage due to the steroids therefore lacking discipline, together with less effective psycho-conditioning (only natual, it's harder to brainwash adults than children). They were also prone to burnout fairly quickly, because standard human form and metabolisms couldn't handle the processes they went through and couldn't cope with operating at the new performance levels for extended periods of time. The Emperor used these during the wars of unification.

2. Astartes, as we currently know them. The Emperor began to develop these almost immediately after unification, using artificial organs designed to be implanted into adolescents who were still developing, along with a cocktail of steroids and other enhancing drugs, and serious courses of psycho-conditioning, which would be more effective on impressionable, developing young minds under the influence of aforementioned drugs.

3. Primarchs. The Emperor then decided to build himself sons/ generals to command his astartes as he had other concerns meaning he couldn't play warlord all day. He made them as beyond Astartes as Astartes are beyond humans. Then, he decided to insert Primarch DNA into the mix for the progenoid glands of each corresponding legion they command. This creates a genetic heritage that can result in increased loyalty if handled correctly in indoctrination (all boys seek father figures), both to the relevant primarch and the emperor as grandfather (apparently this bond wasn't strong enough in the traitors, hence indoctrination is to blame). This also accounts for aberrations in certain legions (I mean physcially, although there is a nature/ nuture argument about fighting style and whether this was passed via some means of genetic memory).

 

Your analogy of the bike and motorbike sums it up pretty well, they are similar, but the bike (Astartes) came first, then someone got the idea to stick an internal combustionengine on it.

 

The thing to remember is that all Astartes no matter the legion follow the same organ transplant and steroid course (indoctrination, as noted above, may be different - although we can assume that all Terran pre-Primarch rediscovery marines received very similar indoctrination, perhaps explaining why they seemed to be more uneasy about betraying the Emperor). The only difference between the legions is the progenoid glands that activate the organs, which contain the Primarchs' DNA. Without the Primarchs' DNA these would still work, it would simply mean that the Astartes really would be "Vanilla Marines", in that no flavour (even Smurf is a flavour - tastes like chicken ;)) had been added to the mix.

 

Thus, with the Grey Knights, all of the organs and drugs are exactly the same as standard Astartes, but the progenoids get a shot of the Emperor's own DNA, and the indoctrination methods also change drastically.

[Artein]

So what's with Garro and his team? Were they not first Grey Knights? They did not have Emperor's gene-seed.

Intriguing, makes me think is it possible to add Genetic data, eg the Emperor's (as he does not have 'Geneseed'), without having adverse effects? Would it even do anything?

 

I suppose we'll have to see what happens with them, he doesn't have his full team yet, does he?

 

I have 3 ideas....

1. They had implanted Emperor's gene of awesomeness later.... is it even possible?

 

2. They did not have Emperor's geneseed at all, they were like proto-Grey Knights.

 

3. They were not Grey Knights at all. :)

[LordOfSkyfall]

So what's with Garro and his team? Were they not first Grey Knights? They did not have Emperor's gene-seed.

Intriguing, makes me think is it possible to add Genetic data, eg the Emperor's (as he does not have 'Geneseed'), without having adverse effects? Would it even do anything?

 

I suppose we'll have to see what happens with them, he doesn't have his full team yet, does he?

 

From what i gathered in Garro: Legion Of One ... you know who *SPOILER* is the last the team has to find, Varon also mentions the other 'conscripts' they have gathered at some point.

 

I agree with ADB, "gene-seed" is in fact just genetic data collected from an individual and used to encode the progenoids.

 

I have a theory that some how the Emperor is able to implant his DNA or "gene-seed" onto the already existing progenoids inside the astartes being gathered by Garro, this may somehow unlock latent psychic abilities in all of them effectively making them the frist grey knight grand masters, further more, as much as i dont like what Ward has done with their fluff, i believe each of the 'conscripts' will set up the new aspects of the grey knights chapter .ei purifiers, paladins etc.

[Generating Random Name...]

So what's with Garro and his team? Were they not first Grey Knights? They did not have Emperor's gene-seed.

Intriguing, makes me think is it possible to add Genetic data, eg the Emperor's (as he does not have 'Geneseed'), without having adverse effects? Would it even do anything?

 

I suppose we'll have to see what happens with them, he doesn't have his full team yet, does he?

 

I have 3 ideas....

1. They had implanted Emperor's gene of awesomeness later.... is it even possible?

 

2. They did not have Emperor's geneseed at all, they were like proto-Grey Knights.

 

3. They were not Grey Knights at all. :)

1. I don't know, maybe.

2. But if this was true they would still be mind wiped, or psycho-indoctrinated, again?

3. mighta just been the start of the =][= but the GK codex contradicts this?

 

Anyway, aren't we getting a bit off track? Or is it just me?

[Pulse]

I think this was stated on a different thread but i think Garro was planted as the first Grey Knight Grandmaster, but did not receive any additional DNA or genetic implants.

[greatcrusade08]

when a new space marine chapter is created a training cadre is often taken from an existing chapter, on occasion some members may stay with the newly created chapter to serve as officers...

the same is entirely possible here, Garro receieved no further genetic material, but served to train the grey knights and lead them in battle

[master_forcide]

And that's what I don't understand. - Where he gets these organs? They are not in human body and by logic (if the Emperor wasn't caught by mad scientist or something) in Emperor's body.

Organ cultures. Gene-Slaves. Sorcerously-altered mutants.

[by_any_other_names]

Its becouse they can't confirm they use trator gene seed

[NightrawenII]

Oh, and directly referring to this:

And that's what I don't understand. - Where he gets these organs? They are not in human body and by logic (if the Emperor wasn't caught by mad scientist or something) in Emperor's body.

I would like to include a quote from Lexicanum:

 

He had first undertaken the Primarch Project, the creation of twenty infants from his own genetic code, designed to mature into powerful generals for his armies

Notice how it says 'From his own genetic code', now that makes me think that they are roughly clones of him, which handily enough this quote is about:

 

"It was begun in M29 with the aim to create 20 cloned 'children' of the Emperor"

 

So if we accept that both these facts are ture then it is entirely feasable (Imho) that the Emperor was able to use his Genetic data to create the Grey Knights. This does leave open the problem of their purity in realtion to the primarch's, but given that the GK are mind wiped upon induction, and are basically extremely Emperor faithful blank canvasses (sp?), whereas the Primarchs grew up on worlds, largely without knowing of the Emperor, and were undoubtable influenced by them, Curze and the Lion being extreme examples.

 

So in conclusion, to me at least, the GK are incorruptable because of their "Emperor's 'Geneseed'" and because of their unwavering faith. So, how does this sound?

 

GRN

The Lexicanum is not entirely correct on this matter:

And so he began to forge for himself the Primarchs, the first ones. They were sons of his blood, yet not mere copies. Each was engineered to be a leader of men, a warrior and a hero tempered by wisdom and strength , both physical and spiritual.

~ Index Astartes, Dark Angels

 

This implies that Emperor's DNA was modified into Primarch's DNA. In the same way you have to modify the Emperor's DNA in order to produce the zygotes of gene-seed or take the gene-seed and modify it with Emperor's DNA.

Both of these methods are rather meh in correlation to failures of Primarchs.

 

This is where I think you've misinterpreted the fluff, the order of creation went as follows:

1. proto-astartes, being adult human soldiers who were genetically modified and had additional organs and bio-mechanical upgrades implanted, making them better at what they did, but prone to rage due to the steroids therefore lacking discipline, together with less effective psycho-conditioning (only natual, it's harder to brainwash adults than children). They were also prone to burnout fairly quickly, because standard human form and metabolisms couldn't handle the processes they went through and couldn't cope with operating at the new performance levels for extended periods of time. The Emperor used these during the wars of unification.

2. Astartes, as we currently know them. The Emperor began to develop these almost immediately after unification, using artificial organs designed to be implanted into adolescents who were still developing, along with a cocktail of steroids and other enhancing drugs, and serious courses of psycho-conditioning, which would be more effective on impressionable, developing young minds under the influence of aforementioned drugs.

3. Primarchs. The Emperor then decided to build himself sons/ generals to command his astartes as he had other concerns meaning he couldn't play warlord all day. He made them as beyond Astartes as Astartes are beyond humans. Then, he decided to insert Primarch DNA into the mix for the progenoid glands of each corresponding legion they command. This creates a genetic heritage that can result in increased loyalty if handled correctly in indoctrination (all boys seek father figures), both to the relevant primarch and the emperor as grandfather (apparently this bond wasn't strong enough in the traitors, hence indoctrination is to blame). This also accounts for aberrations in certain legions (I mean physcially, although there is a nature/ nuture argument about fighting style and whether this was passed via some means of genetic memory).

Then it's retcon, the order was:

#1. Warrior elites, characterised by super human strength and unflinching loyalty, used by the Emperor to reconquer Earth.

#2. Later, the Emperor created twenty beings known as the Primarchs.

#3. The Emperor's geneticists continued their studies and created the first true Space Marines, as other scientists engineered the first suits of powered armour and boltguns.

 

*shrug*

[Master Exorcist]

I was of the opinion that the 20 primarchs were simply one(or more) concentrated aspect of the emperor, such as Angron being the emperors love of battle.

The Grey knights have, more or less, all of these, but are not as concentrated (maybe with some alteration, i havent fully read the GK dex).

 

my 2 kraks

 

ME

[Texpef]

Also to add fluff i was under the impression rightly or wrongly that the custodes followed the proto astartes but before Space Marines/Primarchs?..

[voi shet magir]

Lord_Caerolion, I am mostly replying to your warp-immunity posts.

 

Primarchs are corruptible by design. If they are meant for inspired and charismatic leadership over a long period, they need large and distinct souls. Souls correlate to individual destiny and potency: compare long-lived, multi-talented xenos species with a short-lived, biologically polyethic species who have much less significant warp presences.

 

If an individual tau can accomplish very little, due to his biological caste and short lifespan, he is less susceptible to waywardness - whereas the other, more idividualistic xenos example is infamously more corruptable.

 

Space marines are the opposite. They have had someone else's destiny grafted on top of theirs. The geneseed cutting eclipses the recruited rootstock enough that they all begin to look and act like each other and like their primarch. Marines function as autonomous limbs of a their primarch, in the same way that eusocial insect colonies do not have a telepathic hive mind, they just all operate according to the same rules.

 

Custodes are described as fighting as a group where astartes fight as a single entity. While there is little information about their creation, they are comparable to the primarchs and exhibit more solitary behavior than astartes. Even if they or the primarchs share the Emperor's genes, they have not been effectively parasitized by him the way a primarch's warp signature subsumes his astartes'.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That would be all well and good, other than the fact that you made it up. Nothing has ever stated that Marines "had someone elses destiny grafted on top of theirs". Nothing ever stated they "function as autonomous limbs of their Primarch". If anything, the fluff actually disproves that, as if these sorts of communal minds existed, the Fall of the Dark Angels would never have happened, the purging of the Traitor Legions would never have happened, no Marines would turn while their Chapter remains loyal.

The geneseed doesn't have that sort of effect on its implantees. It can have unusual physical effects caused by mutations in some organs, like the white skin/black hiar of the Raven Guard (which is caused by the mutation being present in the Primarch the geneseed was taken from), and occasionally psychological, like the paranoia of the Iron Warriors and Night Lords, or the inferiority complex of the Imperial Fists (not quite sure how to put it, but that kinda fits).

 

The other problem with your theory is that you assume that charisma requires a 'large' soul, something that isn't inherently true. The Ethereals don't have larger souls, Macharius wasn't a psyker, neither is Calgar or Yarrick. Just because a lack of a soul means the person has an off-vibe about them doesn't inherently mean that someone who's a high-level psyker is naturally charismatic. Also to disprove your theory of "long life = bigger soul" theory is the existance of the C'Tan, who are almost immortal, and yet have a very, very low Warp presence.

Secondly, there's the fact that shorter life doesn't equal less likelihood to be corrupted. If your theory were true, the Craftworlds wouldn't exist any more, since the much longer lives of their inhabitants would mean they'd all be corrupted by now. Sadly, we know that shorter life is often a push towards corruption, as the person wants the power to achieve their goals before they die. While your theory can be considered correct in that, yes, a shorter life means there's less time for bad stuff to happen to you, that isn't because of some intrinsic protection, but simple probability that if you take a shorter period of time, stuff will happen less frequently in it.

 

Space Marines work so well together because they've been drilled near constantly with team-based exercises since they were recruited at around 11. They've worked alongside their squad-mates for so long that they can subconsciously predict their movements, not because of some mystical hive-mind they share, but from sheer familiarity, because they've been fighting and training alongside their battle-brothers for decades, if not centuries.

 

I'm sorry, but your entire argument is based on incorrect assumptions and made-up background. As the actual background stands, the Primarchs aren't "corruptable by design" because of their charisma, but because they still have human urges and emotions. If you can feel anger, you can become too angry, and be noticed by Khorne.

[Kitchen Knife]

Maybe they had a breeding program to "get" the special GK gene-seed?

 

"Okay you 100 marines over there, We'll throw you in the warp for the next 20 years. Fear not! The ones, who might survive sane and uncorrupted, will get there gene-seed harvested because we need some Grey Knights. The rest of you is totally screwed and their souls will be tortured for all eternity, which is a very long time, because not even your adeptus astartes mind can even comprehend eternity"

 

Marines:"Hooray! For the Emprah!"

 

After that you take the harvested gene-seed, forge new SM and start this cycle again. Et voila! After some thousand killed SM you got yout GK gene-seed :)

[Oiad]

I'm not saying I like it. I'm not even saying I find it likely, or that the Grey Knight novel I'm writing on my other monitor at this very moment is going to reference it. But I'm okay with accepting it as valid, because it fits in with the lore.

More likely that you're trying to remain neutral but were you more a proponent of the 'Garro & Co. gene theory' before the release of the codex?

[Noctus Cornix]

Ok can someone please explain to me the question that is being asked here now. Because I already explained the whole 'how they got the geneseed' question.

 

Are you asking now if Garro and his buddies took part in it or not?

[2000AD]

IMO Garro et al are not the first Grey Knights but their combined DNA is used to create them...... interesting to note that one of the team is psychic and one of the characteristics of the Grey Knights is that they were all psychers...... coincedence - maybe maybe not.

 

I think they will be the first Inquisitors..... which makes sense since the Grey Knights are technically part of the Inquisition.

 

So it makes sense both in the literal and metaphorical.

[voi shet magir]

That would be all well and good, other than the fact that you made it up. Nothing has ever stated that Marines "had someone elses destiny grafted on top of theirs". Nothing ever stated they "function as autonomous limbs of their Primarch". If anything, the fluff actually disproves that, as if these sorts of communal minds existed, the Fall of the Dark Angels would never have happened, the purging of the Traitor Legions would never have happened, no Marines would turn while their Chapter remains loyal.

The geneseed doesn't have that sort of effect on its implantees. It can have unusual physical effects caused by mutations in some organs, like the white skin/black hiar of the Raven Guard (which is caused by the mutation being present in the Primarch the geneseed was taken from), and occasionally psychological, like the paranoia of the Iron Warriors and Night Lords, or the inferiority complex of the Imperial Fists (not quite sure how to put it, but that kinda fits).

Adequacy issues, pain glove, yes that.

 

The blood angels turn from diseases wretches to gorgeous Sanguinius look-alikes. Luna wolves look like Horus, Alpha legionnaires look like their primarch. They are individuals, however they have had their personal destinies truncated at the stem like a horticultural rootstock and saddled with more vigorous scion material. They have the same growth habit and produce the same fruit. The comparison was explicitly to eusociality in insects - bees, if you didn't know, are not telepathic. They are, however, united in purpose and in means, since foragers all execute their functions the same way, and trust soldiers to work in a particular way. Primarchs trust their astartes not only to accomplish their goals, but to accomplish them the way the primarchs would. The primarch does not even have to be alive.

 

 

The other problem with your theory is that you assume that charisma requires a 'large' soul, something that isn't inherently true. The Ethereals don't have larger souls, Macharius wasn't a psyker, neither is Calgar or Yarrick.

I don't know where psykers came into this, not from me. Pyskers have holes in their brains that the warp can climb out of, their souls are not necessarily greater or lesser than anyone else's (that should mean figurative holes figuratively in their brains, not anatomical features. I am not saying that there is an as-yet undescribed psyker organ or physiology. that did not happen, do not say that absence of such structures is any way related). Ethereals can have modestly endowed souls because leadership is their only quality. They are not strong or technologically adept or otherwise exceptionally skilled, all of which things are reflected in a soul's potency in the warp. It is that specialization which prevents warp corruption, since warp corruption by definition is diversion from purpose. Individuals or groups diverted from rational purpose and consumed with the means by which they had hoped to accomplish it become tainted. Tau do not determine their own purposes or destinies, those things are external to them, residing in society at large and concentrated in the person of an ethereal.

 

Just because a lack of a soul means the person has an off-vibe about them doesn't inherently mean that someone who's a high-level psyker is naturally charismatic.

It is not only their off-vibe, it is their purposelessness. They are tools of the inquisition and assassinorum, they are artificial lives created by soulless machine replicants and by caged stellar phenomena. They do not possess independent destinies, and could not accomplish them anyway, given their inability to sway their neighbors to whatever cause they might hypothetically have. By contrast, well-endowed souls like the primarchs or eldar are individually consequential and have the ability to conceive of and effect their own purposes. An enormous soul who has submitted his purpose to someone else's becomes effectively a daemon prince or Imperial saint.

 

Also to disprove your theory of "long life = bigger soul" theory is the existance of the C'Tan, who are almost immortal, and yet have a very, very low Warp presence.

The c'tan do not exist in the warp and are not conventionally alive. They are bits of interstellar radiation which the necrontyr built necrodermal shells for so that those expansive, intangible, energy patterns could more effectively interact with conventional life forms.

 

 

Space Marines work so well together because they've been drilled near constantly with team-based exercises since they were recruited at around 11. They've worked alongside their squad-mates for so long that they can subconsciously predict their movements, not because of some mystical hive-mind they share, but from sheer familiarity, because they've been fighting and training alongside their battle-brothers for decades, if not centuries.

The warp is a reflection of personal and societal preoccupations. When marines unite their purposes by that training, their souls become more alike each other. When souls become more alike each other, their purposes become united. You are trying to tell me when an electron transforms into a wave, and I am telling you that it was always both. The have been modified so that they are similar, so they usually come up with similar answers to the same problem. They have drawn nearer each other not in proximity but in form. Each astartes has nineteen primarch-clones inside of him, so his soul is shaped and colored more like all of his cohorts' than they would otherwise be. Each astartes of a chapters is presented the same environment and the same problems and social inputs, so his soul is shaped and colored more like all of his cohorts' than they would otherwise be.

 

In a world where the warp does not exist, like the real world, the warp is still a collection of useful analogies. Bloodshed begets bloodshed; avarice and despair separately are both self propagating. I am closer to my mother than to my next door neighbor, even though she lives 1700 miles away. If I could translate myself to a dimension of emotions, of course I could travel to my mom's house faster than light. When I join my destiny to an institution's and accept their ideology, my thinking assimilates with theirs and our souls become more alike - in color and shape, euphemistically - even if I never meet all their members and become adjacent to them in the warp in the way that I am to my mom. If the warp existed, and there were some means to dye my soul the same shade of blue that your soul is, and mold it into the same shape, then I would think and act as you do. The warp is a medium which transmits behavior and predilection, whether genetic or mememetic. Changing the warp changes them both.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I don't know where psykers came into this, not from me. Pyskers have holes in their brains that the warp can climb out of, their souls are not necessarily greater or lesser than anyone else's (that should mean figurative holes figuratively in their brains, not anatomical features. I am not saying that there is an as-yet undescribed psyker organ or physiology. that did not happen, do not say that absence of such structures is any way related). Ethereals can have modestly endowed souls because leadership is their only quality. They are not strong or technologically adept or otherwise exceptionally skilled, all of which things are reflected in a soul's potency in the warp. It is that specialization which prevents warp corruption, since warp corruption by definition is diversion from purpose. Individuals or groups diverted from rational purpose and consumed with the means by which they had hoped to accomplish it become tainted. Tau do not determine their own purposes or destinies, those things are external to them, residing in society at large and concentrated in the person of an ethereal.

You compared large souls to Eldar, who are entirely psychic. A psyker doesn't have "a hole in their brain that the warp can climb out of", they just have a larger soul. Even basic humans are minorly psychic in 40k, because they have a soul. It just manifests as feelings of deja vu etc. Also, nothing has stated that ethereals have larger souls than their brethren. As I'd said, you've entirely made up this idea of the size of the soul being dependant on their 'purpose' in life. Nothing in 40k background has even remotely hinted at this theory. Tau have smaller souls because that's how they evolved. The Necron'tyr also had small souls before they became the Necrons, back when they had a fully functioning society, and therefore self-determined roles in society, entirely ruining your theory. According to your theory, the only way for a race to have a small soul is to have little or limited purpose, which we know isn't true.

Another fact against your idea of purpose=soul=corruptability is the fact that trees and rocks, something with no soul, can be corrupted by Chaos. If a large soul were a prerequisite for corruption, then this wouldn't be possible.

 

It is not only their off-vibe, it is their purposelessness. They are tools of the inquisition and assassinorum, they are artificial lives created by soulless machine replicants and by caged stellar phenomena. They do not possess independent destinies, and could not accomplish them anyway, given their inability to sway their neighbors to whatever cause they might hypothetically have. By contrast, well-endowed souls like the primarchs or eldar are individually consequential and have the ability to conceive of and effect their own purposes. An enormous soul who has submitted his purpose to someone else's becomes effectively a daemon prince or Imperial saint.

You're begging the question here. A pariah has no options in life because they're soulless, they aren't soulless because they have no options in life. Humans aren't born with souls, which gradually shrink or grow over time to become a pariah or Alpha+ psyker. A human is born a pariah, or born a psyker. Very few pariahs are artificially created.

Another point against your theory is the psykers of the Astronomicon, or other sanctioned psykers. You've already admitted that a limited purpose means you have a small soul, yet these beings doomed to a single purpose for the rest of their life have larger souls than the average human. According to your theory, this should not be the case, unless the "daemon prince/saint" route is selective on who becomes a saint. As it stands, your theory is contradicted by many things in 40k background.

 

The c'tan do not exist in the warp and are not conventionally alive. They are bits of interstellar radiation which the necrontyr built necrodermal shells for so that those expansive, intangible, energy patterns could more effectively interact with conventional life forms.

They're still a life-form, and are sentient. They feel emotions, and should thus have a warp presence. They also aren't limited in their purpose. Once more, given your stated reason for things having smaller souls than others, this should not be the case. Also, some blanks merely have 'no warp presence' as the C'Tan do.

 

The warp is a reflection of personal and societal preoccupations. When marines unite their purposes by that training, their souls become more alike each other. When souls become more alike each other, their purposes become united. You are trying to tell me when an electron transforms into a wave, and I am telling you that it was always both. The have been modified so that they are similar, so they usually come up with similar answers to the same problem. They have drawn nearer each other not in proximity but in form. Each astartes has nineteen primarch-clones inside of him, so his soul is shaped and colored more like all of his cohorts' than they would otherwise be. Each astartes of a chapters is presented the same environment and the same problems and social inputs, so his soul is shaped and colored more like all of his cohorts' than they would otherwise be.

So, as would people working in the same office, or any group working together. The key part you're forgetting though is that this doesn't require the Warp to occur. It's simply familiarity. If what you say is true, then the Primarchs and Custodes, who are all semi-clones of the Emperor, should have all worked near-perfectly alongside each other. Despite this, we know that the Primarchs often hated each other, and that the Custodes don't fight well as teams. You're also ignoring the fact that Deathwatch teams grow to fight alongside each other just as well as a same-Chapter squad, despite having different geneseed. If I fight alongside someone for years in the real world then I'll find myself coming to anticipate what they're going to do. A mystical soul-merging isn't required at all. You're making stuff up that has no basis in background to explain something that already has an explanation, ignoring the cases where it doesn't fit, and begging the question to explain pariahs.

 

To go back to your original point though, regarding warp-corruption, you still haven't disproved the essential fact that the Grey Knights are said to be immune to corruption because they use the Emperor's geneseed, yet the Primarchs, who are an even closer link to the Emperor, don't have this same immunity. To use your example, they've both had the same "destiny" imprinted on top of their own, yet this hasn't acted anything like the way your theory says it should, unless we ignore the fact that the Primarchs are closer to the Emperor than the Grey Knights are, and should therefore have a heavier imprint on their souls.

Your argument is that the Primarchs are inherently corruptable because they have larger souls "because of their purpose", yet conveniently ignores the other part of your theory explaining the imprinting, which the Primarchs most certainly would be effected by, and if your imprint theory is true as you say it, it should protect the Primarchs. Of course, your entire argument ignores the fact that if a larger soul means you're inherently more corruptable than anything else, the Emperor is the #1 most corruptable thing in the entire galaxy, so this inherent corruptability should be passed on via imprint, so the Grey Knights should be inherently more corruptable, not less.

[Codicier Lucion]

Look, could we just agree Ward has created a canon black hole of a codex and be done with it? This debate seems to be going in circles now.

[greatcrusade08]

Look, could we just agree Ward has created a canon black hole of a codex and be done with it? This debate seems to be going in circles now.

 

IMO codexes are less about the canon now and more focussed on the rules, you want good canon.. speak to abnett or A-D-B

 

Matt Ward, Ultramarines player

from your sig..

 

just so you know, hes not an ultras player.. IIRC he plays sallies

[NightrawenII]

You compared large souls to Eldar, who are entirely psychic. A psyker doesn't have "a hole in their brain that the warp can climb out of", they just have a larger soul. Even basic humans are minorly psychic in 40k, because they have a soul. It just manifests as feelings of deja vu etc. Also, nothing has stated that ethereals have larger souls than their brethren. As I'd said, you've entirely made up this idea of the size of the soul being dependant on their 'purpose' in life. Nothing in 40k background has even remotely hinted at this theory. Tau have smaller souls because that's how they evolved. The Necron'tyr also had small souls before they became the Necrons, back when they had a fully functioning society, and therefore self-determined roles in society, entirely ruining your theory. According to your theory, the only way for a race to have a small soul is to have little or limited purpose, which we know isn't true.

He is not entirely wrong, though. The size of soul is related to individualism, personality and desire.

In this regards the Tau have small warp presence because of the lack of personality, Tau's thought process is very similar to the thought process of 'hive', ie. there is no "me", only 'we'. Therefore his comparison to social insects is not too off. Btw, nothing has stated that Ethereals have not larger soul than their brethen.

 

The humans have larger warp presence, because their sense of 'me' is much larger than Tau's and consequently their nature is more selfish. Hovewer the human's nature is also very fickle and thus their experience and dependence on one emotion or idea is weak.

 

The Eldar have the largest souls of known beings and therefore their desires, and what is more improtant, the experience nad dependence on the emotions are much stronger than humans. It's not very hard for Eldar to become a slave of his own desires and wishes.

 

Of course this could work the other way around; Because of the large warp presence...

 

++++

Technically speaking, the Psyker is the one, who can manipulate the warp to manifest his own 'desires'... How could you manipulate the warp, if you don't have any 'desire'?

 

Also you have to take in consideration that some of the Primarchs were psykers to some degree... It's possible for all Primarchs to be psykers, some of them could not be aware of how is their ability(s) related to warp.

 

Another fact against your idea of purpose=soul=corruptability is the fact that trees and rocks, something with no soul, can be corrupted by Chaos. If a large soul were a prerequisite for corruption, then this wouldn't be possible.

Depends on the process of corruption... after all warp energy is capable of twisting the reality.

[Kitchen Knife]

I wouldn't make a correlation between Taus and Humans, based on their personal achievements and the warp-presence of their souls.

 

First, we have a much larger human population than Tau population.

And then we look at a random hive city. What percentage of the millions in this city even have the opportunity to achieve something? More or less none.

So approx 99,9999% of humankind does not achieve anything. Except being cannon fodder in the IG.

 

And now we look at the Tau and also see only a handful of "individuals" (in game terms special characters) who "achieve" something.

 

At the end. The taus are as brainwashed as humankind. It does not matter if your battlecry is "For the Emperor" or "For the greater good" if you are talked into charging the enemy.

 

 

It's a (GW-Fluff) fact, that any psyker has a shining soul in the warp. And if you are psychic, you might achieve more in your live, compared to the standard imperial citizen. Either being an astropath, a navigator, or working as a librarian in an astartes chapter (which is super rare), or get possessed by some nice warp creatures and wreaking havoc in the empire.

 

 

For the gene-seed debate:

I'm just wondering why people think about the origin of the awesome gene-seed of the grey knights, when the Inquistion (where the GK belong to) kill, maim, burn all those filthy xenos, and then have some monkeys jumping around.

I know, that the Jokaero are valued for the technical skills, but it makes, regarding the fluff and the overboarding xenophoby from the empire, even less sense and starts to jump from "no sense" to complete idiotic nonsense.

 

But okay, in the next codices we might have human-eldar hybrids, tyranids with personality, nice and polite CSM.... :P

 

just my 2 cents

[Lord_Caerolion]

He is not entirely wrong, though. The size of soul is related to individualism, personality and desire.

In this regards the Tau have small warp presence because of the lack of personality, Tau's thought process is very similar to the thought process of 'hive', ie. there is no "me", only 'we'. Therefore his comparison to social insects is not too off. Btw, nothing has stated that Ethereals have not larger soul than their brethen.

Except that once again, pariahs disprove your theory. If this theory were to be true, pariahs would be the laziest beings in the galaxy, as they'd have no individuality, personality or desire whatsoever, which we know is not true at all. Regarding the Ethereals though, if you're making a claim with no evidence, then it's up to you to prove it, not me to disprove it. Until something is said that Ethereals have larger souls, they don't.

 

The humans have larger warp presence, because their sense of 'me' is much larger than Tau's and consequently their nature is more selfish. Hovewer the human's nature is also very fickle and thus their experience and dependence on one emotion or idea is weak.

 

The Eldar have the largest souls of known beings and therefore their desires, and what is more improtant, the experience nad dependence on the emotions are much stronger than humans. It's not very hard for Eldar to become a slave of his own desires and wishes.

 

Of course this could work the other way around; Because of the large warp presence...

And the C'Tan, a highly individualistic, greedy species, has no warp presence, or at least a very small one. Seriously guys, your entire argument is that tau have small souls, Eldar have large souls, and humans have medium, so therefore any sliding scale between the three must therefore be the cause of the size of a soul. You know what else? The Tau have the least advanced technology, humans have more advanced technology, and the Eldar have even more advanced technology. It goes in the same scale as the size of their souls! Technological ability must determine the size of a soul!

 

Technically speaking, the Psyker is the one, who can manipulate the warp to manifest his own 'desires'... How could you manipulate the warp, if you don't have any 'desire'?

I don't know, lets ask the Dark Eldar, who have large souls (which they're rebuilding constantly, admittedly) yet have next to no psychic ability, yet most definitely have no shortage of desire or individuality. Hell, their entire society is based around those traits, so they should be the most psychic, biggest-souled race in the galaxy! Compare this to the Old Ones, a much calmer, less "desirous" race, yet they had almost unparalled warp-ability.

 

Still, we're getting a little off-topic here...