The Emperor's Geneseed

[Codicier Lucion]

IMO codexes are less about the canon now and more focussed on the rules, you want good canon.. speak to abnett or A-D-B

 

And?

 

They've got to have some basis on the normal universe and be relatively in-keeping with the set laws and facts of the universe, otherwise there's no point in having any story behind it. If they're not worried about the canon at all in the codexes then just have the rules in them and give a list of novels to look up if they actually want to know about the universe or characters.

 

If anyone was creating any piece of media for any franchise which isn't supposed to focus on the canon they'd want to at least have a vague idea of how things work, rather than creating a franchise black hole like Draigo.

 

Next thing you know Ward will write the C'tan out of existence or adding Grandfather Nurgle as an HQ choice for Chaos Daemons.

 

from your sig..

 

just so you know, hes not an ultras player.. IIRC he plays sallies

 

I'll believe it when I see it. If this is the case then he's even worse than I thought, rather than being a rampant fanboy he's apparently selected one legion to promote to the level where no others can compete with them in order to tick people off.

 

Though that still wouldn't quite explain why he went out of his way to try and make Chapter's Due non-canon.

[Iron Lord]

Seeing as Chapter's Due and Codex Blood Angels came out around the same time (maybe a month or so apart) it's possible that it's Chapter's Due that's the source of the canon conflict.

 

Codex SM: Portrays M'Kar as having been killed by Calgar.

Codex Blood Angels: At some time after this, M'kar tempts Mephiston

Chapters's Due: M'kar is portrayed as having been imprisoned by Calgar, rather than killed.

[Codicier Lucion]

Seeing as Chapter's Due and Codex Blood Angels came out around the same time (maybe a month or so apart) it's possible that it's Chapter's Due that's the source of the canon conflict.

 

Or more likely Ward spent five minutes writing in a small side section to conflict with the plot of Chapter's Due. Considering the information already revealed about the book long before its release and the fact the fluff of the novels is far more lengthy and takes longer to write and edit it's likely Ward got word of some of what was taking place in it and didn't like the content.

 

Namely the fact that the Ultramarines we're flawed, made mistakes, actually had to fight an uphill battle, had to get help from the Mechanicus and Raven Guard; and were just 'good' as opposed to the unbeatable demi-gods they were presented as in the 5th edition codex.

 

To quote the rantings of one fanboy's review:

http://www.amazon.com/Chapters-Due-Ultrama...l/dp/1844168611

Tigurius, the most powerful librarian in all the Imperium, comes off as weak and ineffective against the demon forces of M'kar. I mean, Tigurius should have been able to banish M'kar himself, he's so powerful in the

background information, but in this book, he can barely hold off minor demons.

*

 

And how was M'kar able to stand up to the Gauntlets of Ultramar, which have taken down Daemon Lords as well as Khaine avatars? M'kar was literally shrugging off blows from gauntlets that are Dark Technology Age wonders, with no explanation as to how he could do so.

 

When it came down to it, why was Uriel Ventris and Cato Sicarius so not effective against Honsou and the pirate queen? Honsou was ten times the fighter Ventris was for no apparent reason all of a sudden.

 

In fact, all the villains in the book cause terrible devastation while the heroes can't pull their heads out of their you know whats to figure out what's going on.

 

The Ultramarines end up beating off a force of at least ten thousand traitor marines and one Retribution Class Battleship, with support from multiple allies, but by the skin of their teeth and taking heavy casualties as they do it. As opposed to wiping the floor with the Iron Warriors, who had extensive knowledge of Codex tactics and the ability to bypass defences, the second they entered Ultramar space.

 

After Ward wrote things like Sicarius having more awards and honours than most entire chapters, Calgar being able to kill Eldar Avatars, Telion being able to take into account the curvature of a planet while lining up shots and being so good he's loaned to lesser chapters; do you really think he would take this being canon well?

 

*- Also, Tiguris held off an endless tide of lesser daemons, using walls of psychic power to defend a fortress from them for days on end before finally falling from exhaustion. Again, powerful but not ridiculously invincible.

 

Codex SM: Portrays M'Kar as having been killed by Calgar.

Codex Blood Angels: At some time after this, M'kar tempts Mephiston

Chapters's Due: M'kar is portrayed as having been imprisoned by Calgar, rather than killed.

 

M'Kar is a daemon, daemons get sent back to the Warp, not killed. There's been few moments in any fluff of daemons being killed, and the only one I keep seeing referenced was Eisenhorn's obliteration of the daemonhost Prophaniti. Even if he had 'killed' him he would have just come back faster, saying Calgar imprisoned a powerful daemon prince instead makes a lot more sense.

And no, the Grey Knights don't count despite what Ward the new codex might say about them being able to outright kill them rather than banish them.

 

In addition to this Chapter's Due bypassed that small point by making the killing of M'Kar the 'official story' of what happened.

[Abaddonshand]

Telion being able to take into account the curvature of a planet while lining up shots

 

In fairness to Ward, this is the one part of his fluff that makes sense/is reasonable/realistic. Long range snipers taking shots at ranges beyond say 1-1.5 miles do a actually need to tale the curvature of the earth into account when making pre-shot calculations

[Iron Lord]

After Ward wrote things like Sicarius having more awards and honours than most entire chapters,

Where? It says "has been awarded many honors" but I can't find anything like "more than most entire chapters"

 

Calgar being able to kill Eldar Avatars, Telion being able to take into account the curvature of a planet while lining up shots and being so good he's loaned to lesser chapters; do you really think he would take this being canon well?

 

The phrasing was "can take account of environmental interferences, such as wind or gravity, like few others and use bolter or sniper rifle to deliver a killing shot far beyond the official range"

 

M'Kar is a daemon, daemons get sent back to the Warp, not killed.

 

"Slain" in the conventional sense- the body is damaged enough to "die" and the soul sent back to the warp. Chopping a daemon's head off, in this case, may be "slaying" it.

[Codicier Lucion]

Where? It says "has been awarded many honors" but I can't find anything like "more than most entire chapters"

 

I was going by the sheer number of awards listed for his specific company compared to those listed for other chapters in the codex. Also by the claim "the finest fighting unit in this [ultramarines] or any other Space Marine Chapter". Actually, that second bit sort of makes things worse.

 

I could have also been confusing facts with this small bit: "Each member of the Ultramarines Honour Guard has earnt more commendations and glories in a lifetime's service than a whole company of Space Marines from any other chapter, and that each individual has slain more foes than an entire company of Imperial Guardsmen."

 

The phrasing was "can take account of environmental interferences, such as wind or gravity, like few others and use bolter or sniper rifle to deliver a killing shot far beyond the official range"

 

Yeah, that's my fault. I took the word of someone else on that bit and it seems to have been incorrect. The fault for the curvature thing is entirely mine.

However, something worse came up when I looked through his bio again. He's listed to be the reason why "Ultramarines have the best marksmen among all Space Marine Chapters" and apparently that's why he's loaned to other chapters.

 

Just when I think things can get no lower...

 

"Slain" in the conventional sense- the body is damaged enough to "die" and the soul sent back to the warp. Chopping a daemon's head off, in this case, may be "slaying" it.

 

I stand by what I said. It makes more sense for Calgar to have imprisoned him rather than let him go back into the warp and have him being summoned back into reality within a few decades.

[Pulse]

M'Kar is more than likely back in the warp.

[Perrin]

I'm lost, even though this discussion about Chapters Due and Ward's codexes (codi?) seems more interesting to me than the Emperors Geneseed i can't see how it got to this <_<

 

From my point of view, novels are canon, because I don't play tabletop 40k or WF anymore so i dont need to buy any codexes. Soo I get all my background/fluff knowledge from Lexicanum, forums, novels and sometimes the dawn of war games. But, because Black Library has so many different authors and so many things to write about it would be hard for any author to read every single book written by every other author in the franchise, remember all of the details and dates, then still find time to keep to deadlines (which some of them struggle with anyway :huh:) for their own novels and not to contradict anything that has already been written.

 

With the GK codex i agree that maybe this time Matt Ward has gone a bit too far in the "My dad is bigger than yours" area and maybe got a bit OTT with some of the GK characters.

And in my opinion, from what i've read in this topic, Ward seems to have purposely ignored what another author has wrote, and has decided to go his own way with the same character, which seems a bit rude.

Does Ward have complete free-reign with his codex writing? A-DB writes on this forum from time to time about meetings between authors and editors and the HH team, surely they have meetings about what goes in Codexes, and then GM could have stood up and shouted "I OBJECT, M'kall is busy fighting my Ultramarines who aren't stupidly overpowered, so you cant have him tempting Mephiston at the same time".

 

 

Though I could be completely wrong and maybe M'kall was tempting Mephiston from the warp after Calgar had banished him? I have't read the BA Codex.

[Iron Lord]

Though I could be completely wrong and maybe M'kall was tempting Mephiston from the warp after Calgar had banished him? I have't read the BA Codex.

page 16:

 

965.M41 The Temptation of Mephiston

Daemon Prince M'Kar the Reborn traps Chief Librarian Mephiston in the crystal caverns of Solon V. He attempts to lure Mephiston onto the path of the Renegade, accusing him of being firmly on the path to daemonhood. Rejecting M'Kar's dastardly deceptions, Mephiston throttles the life out of his captor, but not before a sinister seed of doubt worms its way into his heroic heart.

 

A early as Codex Tyranids (which came out well before The Chapter's Due) we have M'Kar "metamorphosing Sondheim V into his private domain" during the advance of Hive Fleet Leviathan which begins in 997.M41-

 

and Codex Grey Knights gives the date of this event as 997.M41.

 

When does The Chapter's Due describe M'Kar's imprisonment in the star fort as ending?

[Brother Derringer]

BUMP

 

Just wondering, if the Grey Knights and the Custodes are so incredibly pure, why not create more chapters from their geneseed?

[Lord_Caerolion]

BUMP

 

Just wondering, if the Grey Knights and the Custodes are so incredibly pure, why not create more chapters from their geneseed?

 

You do realise you've just admitted to not reading the thread, right? This question has already been answered numerous times over, before it went into the off-topic stuff.

 

Short version is that the Custodes don't have geneseed, they're mini-Primarchs, "genetic overspill" to use the words of Lorgar, and thus seem to have each been individually crafted and gene-smithed, rather than the "mass-producing" of the Astartes. Grey Knights, on the other hand, aren't immune because of their geneseed, no matter how Ward likes to spin it, but because of their amazing willpower, psychic ability, and protective warding. It's hard for Chaos to get a hold on you when every piece of equipment on you is essentially a ward of banishment, and the Marine itself has been hypnotically indoctrinated to pretty much have prayers of warding "running" non-stop in their heads.

Saying that it's solely the geneseed of the Emperor which gives them this power is missing the point that the Primarchs were a much closer link to the Emperor than the Grey Knights ever could be, and they were utterly corruptable.

[Oiad]

Simple way of looking at it:

 

Grey Knights - A final gambit, built to explicitly to combat Chaos, thus they needed to be immune from their influence.

Primarchs - Built to basically lead armies to conquer the galaxy and be general kill-switches. Not really built to deal with the influences of chaos though in hindsight that would have been a good idea.

Custodes - Not really the all-conquering army the dark gods were looking for. Too close to the Emperor in duty and fealty.

[Lord_Caerolion]

But the Primarchs are the Emperors "clone sons", built even closer to him than the Grey Knights are. Unless they deliberately left out the "Chaos-immunity" gene when creating them, the Primarchs should be at least as resistant, most likely more, than the Grey Knights, rather than far more corruptable.

[Oiad]

Sick of this 'better at all-or-nothing' approach that some people have. All indications so far lead to the line that while the Primarchs were closer in most aspects, they are not necessarily closer in every aspect.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, I just don't like to see people (who have souls, not Pariahs) able to completely ignore the threat of corruption, just because they have the "can't touch this" gene. Grey Knights should be immune because of their own willpower etc, not because their DNA gives Chaos the finger. It cheapens both the Grey Knights, and Chaos itself.

[jeffersonian000]

I think the issue that everyone is confusing future history with future mythology. GW writes the second, not the first.

 

What we have in our hands is a body of work that recites the mythology of the 40k universe, as seen from different points of view. Each codex is told from the point of view of those involved, while each novel and short story is told from the point of view of a storyteller reciting an epic tale to an audience. Nothing more.

 

This pretty much means that everything written as fluff should be taken with a grain of salt, as its accuracy has been lost in the retelling.

 

In the case of the Grey Knights founding, the new codex shares its tale of the epic formation of the Emperor's last creation, or so the storyteller says. We learn that eight individuals of an inquisitive nature are brought forth before the Emperor so that He can deem them worthy of fighting the rising tide of chaos, as a last defense in humanity's long term survival. We learn the epic tale of foresight that went into the infrastructure of Titan that just so happened to pre-date the actual need for such an infrastructure to even exist. We learn that only one candidate in a million can ever become a hero of legend, leaving behind them a path of wreckage of untold suffering. What we learn is boldfaced lies and propaganda, in the tradition of all great works that tell the tale of greatness without bothering with pesky things like facts.

 

This is why GW has repeatedly stated that there is no canon in 40k; all are lies and propaganda told solely to tell a good story, a story of grandness far beyond the reckoning of the human mind. Or something like that.

 

As such, whether or not the Emperor's flesh and blood was use to form the Grey Knight's geneseed is moot, as the Emperor's flesh and blood was use to create all geneseed initially. Remember, Chapter 666 is a 2nd founding chapter, not a 1st founding legion. Their geneseed comes from the Adaptus Mechanicus, not the Emperor. It takes 100 years for the Adapts of Mars to grow 1000 sets of geneseed based organs, and it takes at least another 20 years to form a fully functioning space marine chapter. What the new codex tells us is that the Grey knights in 5ed are less than they were in 3ed, as they are now a codex chapter following the strict 1000 marine rule, where before they were counted as 5-6000 strong. Both the 3ed and 5ed codecii state that all Grey Knights are recruited only from psykers, which negates the claim that their powers come directly from the Emperor's genetic material (other than the fact that all psykers are descendants of the Emperor). It was stated clearly in the 3ed material but less so in the new book that their faith, training, and gear prevents their corruption, not their geneseed.

 

From this, I take it that the Emperor foresaw the need for another legion, as His children had fallen into a civil war of brother versus brother. He left the task to the Sigilite to complete, to which Malcador use the bureaucracy of the Admistratum to create the very first new found chapter (and set in motion the process of creating all future new chapters after the 2nd founding). Geneseed was collected from the Mechanicus, organs cultured, recruits implanted, and newly formed chapter was trained by the best cadre available in combating all things daemonic. Over the past 10,000 years, this chapter has refined their techniques, their practices, and their traditions into the Grey Knights we know today. All the rest are simply stories told the child to keep the bogymen at bay.

 

SJ

 

*edited for grammar

[Lord_Caerolion]

Except for the problem that it hasn't been stated anywhere that 40k background is intended to be taken as in-universe legends. What we're given is the word of an omnipresent narrator, written as statements of fact. If it's in-universe sources, then they're written incredibly lazily, and don't sound like propaganda, they just sound stupid. Codex: Space Marines doesn't sound anything like an in-universe piece of propaganda, neither does the Chaos Marine codex, the Tyranid codex, the Ork codex, or any of them.

The entire argument is something invented by people to excuse badly-written background. It's written as an omnipresent word-of-god statement, and I'll take it as such.

[shatter]

?

 

Far out, no way.

 

JS is on the money. The stuff we read is produced by the Imperium for it's relevant citizenry; not by GW for the consumers of their products despite common sense implying otherwise. You'll have to take it on faith... which is the point.

 

{Record expunged by Order of His Inquisition}

 

I hope that anecdote made it clear.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So, they Grey Knight codex is filled with nothing but propaganda intended for the common citizen regarding a force that they'll be mind-wiped (at best) if they ever find out about it? Why include propaganda of "your holy protectors, the Grey Knights, slaughtered Sisters of Battle to make themselves even more incorruptable than they already are"?

 

It's been stated before that "everything is canon, and nothing is", but never, ever stated "it's all propaganda from in-universe sources". Once again, if it's supposed to be in-universe, then it's completely and utterly different from every other piece of actually in-universe piece of propaganda we've been shown in novels etc. How do these propaganda-writers know about how Vect rose to power? How do they know Haemonculi regrow dead Dark Eldar? How do they know the truth about the daemon cities/realms? Why do they portray xenos and heretics favourably?

 

This is the main flaw of this argument. If every codex was Imperial propaganda, then why aren't the non-Imperial codicies reading like the Uplifting Primer? Orks are supposed to "drop like a sack of sand" if you shoot them in the face, not be able to transplant brains. Eldar are supposed to have technology that barely works, not technology far, far in advance of holy Mechanicus-blessed Imperial technology. Daemons aren't supposed to exist, neither are the Traitor Legions.

For propaganda, it sure as hell doesn't read like it. Propaganda is supposed to be uplifting, not tell you that those Tyranids you barely fought off are barely even the vanguard. It reads like statements of fact, because they're statements of fact. It lacks every single characteristic of propaganda, despite peoples protests to the contrary. People are simply stretching the "everything is canon, and nothing is" throw-away line, far far beyond what it was intended to be. Despite that there is apparently "no canon", there must inherently be a baseline of truth to the universe, otherwise it just collapses in on itself. After all, if there's no canon, there's nothing stopping me declaring that the Tau are actually the missing 11th Legion, because "the Warp did it."

What the codices and books provide is that baseline for the setting. Bolters work in the way they're described in the books and novels, you can't argue that. Yarrick defended Armageddon. Vect rose to power by holding a coup. The Grey Knights did the stuff they're described as doing. This is published canon by GW. It's the baseline facts about the 40k universe. Within that universe, you're free to do whatever, within the limitations set by the codices and novels. To argue against this, that everything is just propaganda and lies... that way madness lies. The madness of the missing 11th Legion: the Tau Empire, "Hello Kitty" Necrons and that Kirby is actually the Hive Mind.

[NightrawenII]

?

 

Far out, no way.

 

JS is on the money. The stuff we read is produced by the Imperium for it's relevant citizenry; not by GW for the consumers of their products despite common sense implying otherwise. You'll have to take it on faith... which is the point.

 

{Record expunged by Order of His Inquisition}

 

I hope that anecdote made it clear.

Ahem, no.

Lord_Caerolion is right. While there are articles written from in-universe stand-point (most of the 3rd ed. Codices), the 'new' stuff presented in the 5th ed. codices doesn't read like propaganda at all.

[Midwest]

It's phrased as "geneseed, that lacked the flaws of that which had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul".

 

So, it's possible that, after discovering just how flawed the Primarch/Space Marine geneseed was, he embarked on a project to replace it- which was completed late in the Heresy.

 

In the novels, it's suggested (admittedly by daemons which may be lying) that the Primarchs incorporate the stolen power of the Chaos gods within them.

 

That the Chaos gods are just as much their "parents" as the Emperor is.

I think the daemon(s) are lying, or at least confusing the effect of Chaos exposure (initiated by the gods themselves) with some sort of intentional plan to expose them to Chaos (by the Emperor).

 

My best preferred guess/theory is that the Grey Knights' gene-seed is a reaction to the fall of the Traitor Legions, and to the Thousand Sons in particular. The heresy proved that the original Astartes gene-lines were wholly corruptible - even the Warmaster himself could be tainted, and the HH novels indicate that Chaos can quickly corrupt and possess Marines once they gain access to them (esp if the Marines are willing).

 

Related to that, the Emperor, perhaps knowing the weakness of the original 18 (20) gene-lines in regards to psychics and the warp, tried to use ignorance to prevent the original Astartes legions from being exposed to such things, but the Thousand Sons proved highly sensitive to them, yet their gene-seed was incapable of handling this sensitivity, a foretelling of sorts of how susceptible to corruption the Astartes gene-seed was.

 

The canis helix of the Wolves proves it is possible to shield the Astartes gene-seed against corruption (at least that's my understanding of things), but it's also implied (especially IMO in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns) that the Wolves are not terribly psychic - their Runepriests seem to have a much weaker, more passive command of the warp, whereas the T-Sons of course are far more skilled (both the SW and TS seem to think this is the result of the Wolves relying only on innate half-ignorant ability versus the study and practice of the TS, but it seems just as likely that the TS are simply fundamentally more capable of warpcraft than the Wolves, regardless of how it's pursued).

 

To me, it seems plausible that, once the Heresy breaks open, the Emperor realizes the folly of using ignorance as a shield (or at least the folly of continuing to try and use it), and realizes he needs a gene-seed as robust as the Wolves, but capable of handling the warp sensitivity closer to that of the TS. In such a scenario, it'd make sense that he'd either use "extra" of his genetics, or use very specific elements of his genetics, since he of course is a very powerful psyker who yet is very resistant to warp corruption.

 

Not that I think the SW (or T-Sons) directly contributed to the Grey Knights, only that I think the GK represent a realization that the Imperium needed a gene-seed line better capable of handling warp-exposure than what the previous lines had proven to be.

[shatter]

?

 

Far out, no way.

 

JS is on the money. The stuff we read is produced by the Imperium for it's relevant citizenry; not by GW for the consumers of their products despite common sense implying otherwise. You'll have to take it on faith... which is the point.

 

{Record expunged by Order of His Inquisition}

 

I hope that anecdote made it clear.

Ahem, no.

Lord_Caerolion is right. While there are articles written from in-universe stand-point (most of the 3rd ed. Codices), the 'new' stuff presented in the 5th ed. codices doesn't read like propaganda at all.

 

Of course it's for our consumption. We're not 41m citizenry. Or are we?

Beside the point, all data is subject to change (as GW does - inarguable) and all fluff data is written, often in a heroic style, but not always but it's not 'recorded'. Nowhere in the fluff are we addressed as players/consumers. The wall is there and ignored like any theater fiction. These days, compared to the past, it's far more serious and uses formal English. Doesn't mean it aint propaganda or propaganda based. And, as a propaganda connoisseur, I'll state the best propaganda is that couched in formal language alongside the heroic as intelligence.

Again beside the point as propaganda doesn't mean it must be a lie. If it is propaganda, it could be anything and therefore nothing is 100% reliable. In short, we can believe what we like and be right and wrong which brings us back to faith... which I'll state again, is the point.

 

So many novels make it clear that the source is not the guy's name on the cover. The Inquisition War is quite a classic example as in the first chapter of one of the books it describes how the book itself is found wrapped in leather and jammed in a crevice somewhere. There are even references to machines that write novels for the populace based on 'real' events. What we read and take as gospel in codexes is not immune to this possibility.

 

From my perspective, everything and I mean everything that happened was pretty much exactly what He intended to happen because in all His millennia of service to mankind, this was the best that could be hoped for. In short, GK geneseed was one of His last gifts. I have faith in Him. The specifics of the statement in the GK codex actually infer He is a genetic contributor to the geneseed. While GK players may deem that special, His genes are pretty much in every geneseed for any chapter. It may be a different set of genotypes, but that's not specified beyond the 'His soul' comment.

 

*shrug*

[ProteanSun]

I like the idea of the Emperor being the aspect of Malal, the 5th god of chaos. Apparently Malal is supposed to be the balancing factor for the Chaos Gods, or something like that.

 

I believe the Primarchs were in fact made from the emperor's own flesh (and therefore with a touch of chaos). Perhaps the primarchs being lost is more design that bad luck. I would assume that creating the legions off of the primarch's blueprint would in turn leave them with some amount of chaos in them. Even the mighty Ultras are cursed to some degree.

 

The whole Grey Knight Codex just doesn't sport sensible continuity with the other codecies. I bought the GK codex as they were some of the first models I collected. I can't in good conscious use the codex. GW needs to have a real AUTHOR write the fluff and a WRITER write the army list. Mat Ward is not an author. I miss the days of Gav Thorpe, Graham Mcneill, Allessio Cavatore...they may not have made the most balanced codecies but I enjoyed them a hell of a lot more.

 

Just my 2 cents!

[bjornsval]

What i have wondered. Is if the emperor needed marines specifically tailored to fight chaos. Why not use humans who have the pariah gene. In almost all GW material,the pariahs are the anti-warp. Chaos demons,psykers,all abhore being near them. powers cant be used around them. So why would you make your premier anti-demon force from people with psykic powers. We know that the warp feeds on those with these powers and are more open to corruption by chaos. Am i wrong? or am i missing something?

[shatter]

I'm not sure that pariahs are sensitive enough to detect the presence of nor root out the taint. I think it's the act if integration into the Inquisition & Imperial information and social systems that requires them to be psykers and... depending on how strong your faith, brother, they're focal points for His will.