Grand master Mordrak

[Valerian]

Let's not forget that there is a pretty decent chance that Codex Grey Knights was written largely with 6th Edition in mind. I think Mordrak and his Ghost Knights work just fine in 5th, but if some of the rumors for 6th pan out, then they'll be a fantastic unit, as they'll be able to Assault directly out of a pinpoint Deep Strike. The lack of Psycannons won't matter much, as they'll start the game in close combat, and every model will get extra attacks for having Storm Bolters (Assault Weapons). Mordrak will undoubtably be the default for any Deepstrike focused army.

 

Valerian

[Lord Sirrion]

To true. Hadn't even thought about Mordrak's 6th Ed implications.

Awesome!

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Can I get linky to rumored 6th Ed. rules??

 

End of Line

[Adir]

A librarian is a good way to go especially when he gets a teleport homer. Guiding in two 10 man terminator squads on Turn 2 in a pretty awesome way to get the jump on an opponent.

[Valerian]

Can I get linky to rumored 6th Ed. rules??

 

End of Line

 

Just go to the News and Rumors section of the BnC; I'd link it to you, but I'm on my iPhone and it's a little inconvenient. In addition to the OP in that thread, I posted further rumors into it later on, sonlook for those posts too.

 

V

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mordrak seems a lot more interesting after perusing through this thread. I'll definitely give him a go. He is a level 2 psyker, right? Having both him and Thawn in the same army might work well.

 

G :cuss

[Reclusiarch Darius]

To me Mordrak & his merry band of ghostly men exist to be the spearhead for a midfield deepstrike in an army with few or no transports.

 

I'm assuming you mean the enemy has few or no transports, yes? In that case, yeah maybe you kill a few dudes with your 'surprise stormbolter!' party trick. It's a lot of points to pay to land six stormbolters on Turn 1. At the price of waiting till Turn 2, you could send double the amount of Terminators (paying extra for psycannon of course).

 

Mordraks unit + libby (with teleport homer) drops next to midfield cover and procedes to run into it, if this goes well you should be able to give yourself a 3+/2+ coversave and or block LOS completely for a turn. Very few armies can bring the firepower to bear on turn 1 to wipe that unit off the table if youve positioned well (hence droping into the midfield not the enemys backline.) and with some moderate luck the unit can more or less replenish itself to some extent. In the subsequent turn you can use the homer & communion to put down most of the rest of the army (mostly termies with psycannons and the like) and attempt to dominate the midfield (scatter free DS, 24" shooting and shrouding and sanctuary etc.).

 

The question then is, why bother using Mordrak at all? Deploy right on the edge of your DZ, walk to the mid-field where you want to lay down the welcome mat, then wait. Either give him a squad to hide inside (y'know, those Troop Terminators who fight just as well as Ghost Knights, whilst being scoring), or hide him behind terrain (one TDA model is easier to conceal than 7). Of course, than then begs the question why you'd leave such temping bait exposed and unsupported for at least a whole turn, and not just deploy your whole army in a phalanx...but still, if you wanna do Deepstriking into the mid-field, walking the Librarian where he needs to be works without Mordrak+friends.

 

Not the best, but viable. To me a GK army is at its most fluffly when deepstriking aload of terminators and in my limited expereince this approach and "Draigowing" seem to be the most viable. Antyone got any better suggestions?

 

There are at least four other army builds with our codex besides 'lots of Terminators' or 'a handful of incredibly awesome Terminators'. Don't worry about whats 'fluffy' or not, it's your army. If Deepstriking appeals to you, go for it. Don't assume it's the only trick in our book though.

I'd recommend you try out the different flavours of power-armoured squad (except Purgators, they're bad in every conceivable army). Strikes offer twice the bodies+storm bolter, for a slightly reduced armour save, weak close-combat ability and no invul (although in exchange, you get 'Warp Quake'). Purifiers are an awesome support unit, and unlike Strikes or regular Terminators, they are still combat effective at 5-man (in fact, their psychic power encourages you to split them up into mini-Strike squads). Interceptors aren't my favourite (I like more Terminators), but their mobility is fantastic and they have all the characteristics of a Strike squad (just that they live in Fast Attack).

 

Only 3 extra I'm afriad.

 

Techincally he would get a 4th automatically when he lost his 4th wounds, but as that's his last wound, he goes, as do all the Ghost Knights!

 

:P Silly me. So yeah, not really that great at replacing casualties.

 

When we get back to playing, I'mm gonna use Mordrak with a nuch of Interceptors/PT NDK to create first turn pressure. Mordrak pops up exactly where I want him, and the Interceptors/NDK move up 12" (or if I didn't give them Scout, Shunt) to provide support.

 

Don't see why you'd need him for that strategy though. Dump him, then re-invest the points into another Interceptor squad? More bodies, more psycannon

 

I will never ceased to be amazed at the negativity and the number of "corrections" people feel compelled to provide in threads like these. The original poster had a really great game with Mordrak and wanted to express that here... yet folks feel compelled to tear down his analysis. I would really like to see this community better support its members and not engage in a point by point tear down of each others posts.

 

You must be in a state of constant shock then :) this is what's called debate. Anyway, I just found so much wrong with his analysis of the unit, I wanted to give my take on things.

 

Oh, and taking the moral high ground doesn't work here, it's the internet :cuss

 

At any rate, I also like to use Mordrak and 5 knights as a pure CC unit mounted in Redeemer. As the original poster mentions, he has a better statline than a normal GKGM and the aforementioned retinue rule means this unit can hand out some serious pain in close combat (at I6 and I1).

 

What utter tosh. They are exactly the same as regular Troop Terminators, which means at 5-man, they are lackluster. Mordrak hits at slowpoke I1, so he's really only good for smushing tanks or walkers that laugh off the halberds. Standing still (remember, no Deepstrike after assault)

 

10 x WS4 S5 attacks at I6 (assuming you went full halberds, and you passed 'Hammerhand')

5 hits (nobody will charge anything less than WS4 units into them)

3 wounds (assuming T4), 4 if they're T3

3 kills if no invul, subtract from there if they have invul

 

In defense, you have 5 ablative TDA wounds and one wound sink to generate new Ghost Knights from. In a protracted combat however, it's more likely the Ghosts will get dragged down, and Mordrak can only regen 3 of them before succumbing.

 

Sticking them in a Redeemer is a grotesque misuse of the unit, and a waste of points. You're not using 'First Into the Fray' (which ostensibly is the reason you're fielding him in the first place), and you're buying a Landraider in a Knight army (which is silly, now that we have so many other options with regards to transportation).

 

I've used Mordrak A LOT. Love him. You just have to be smart with the guy. Just make sure where he's dropping isn't in the middle of the enemy army. Make it so only a few enemy units can shoot/assault him. The terrain thing is a must, don't even worry about the running into terrain, just DP into it and eat the dangerous terrain roll.

 

How does the unit fair in close-combat? I've fielded normal Terminators before at 5-man, and they've consistently failed to impress. Also, how often does he survive your games?

 

I surprised that nobody has mentioned attaching an IC to his unit. Stick a librarian with him and the unit is golden. Sanctuary to help stop assaults. Pesky tank bothering you? Drop near hit, hit it with warp rift, then use it for cover! Then use the librarian's teleport homer combined with Mordraks communion to bring in some other scary units to support him. 20 terminators showing up without scatter wherever you want them by turn 2 is a scary thing.

 

I'm pretty sure OP did in his original post, or at least one of the replies did. Anyway, yeah you can do the 'Warp Rift' trick, but there are some things to consider.

 

Firstly, that Librarian is the only source you have for 'Shrouding', 'Might', 'Quicksilver' and 'Sanctuary' (and of course 'Warp Rift'). He is also the only psychic hood you can get. So, it just seems a little risky dropping him so close to the enemy, where he'll undoubtedly attract a lot of enemy fire.

Psychic tests usually get through, so thats a more minor concern. What I would be worried about is what if you roll badly for the damage result? Happens to me all the time, and it's not AP1 so you're paying a lot to cause that auto-pen.

 

With regards to landing 20 Terminators on Turn 2, doing some quick math (I'm assuming you're not including the Ghost Knights in your tally)

 

HQ:

 

Modrak

(200 points)

5 x Ghost Knights w/halberds

(200 points)

 

Librarian w/sword, 'Might', 'Sanctuary', 'Shrouding', 'Warp Rift'

(170 points)

 

Troops:

 

(2) Justicar, 2 x Terminators w/psycannon, 7 x Terminators

(450 points each)

 

Thats pretty much your entire army at 1,500 points. Even at 2k, it's a lot of points in a handful of models. Mordrak, his friends and the Librarian have to wait it out for a turn, while an entire 1,500pt enemy army (or the majority of a 2k army) hunt them. Assuming Mordrak is still alive, 'Communion' can be blocked (because it's a psychic power), it has a low chance of failure, or it could be negated by enemy abilities (IG Master of the Fleet etc). On top of that, whilst a 3+ is pretty reliable, you could always roll 1's and 2's for Reserves on Turn 2. Again, that leaves them sitting pretty by themselves (even at 2k, you won't have much else on the board), still the centre of attention.

 

Let's not forget that there is a pretty decent chance that Codex Grey Knights was written largely with 6th Edition in mind. I think Mordrak and his Ghost Knights work just fine in 5th, but if some of the rumors for 6th pan out, then they'll be a fantastic unit, as they'll be able to Assault directly out of a pinpoint Deep Strike. The lack of Psycannons won't matter much, as they'll start the game in close combat, and every model will get extra attacks for having Storm Bolters (Assault Weapons). Mordrak will undoubtably be the default for any Deepstrike focused army.

 

I sincerely hope the rumours are wishlisting. Assault after Deepstrike is the reason Planetstrike was so broken for certain armies. The bonus attacks for Assault weapons sound pretty suspect as well. Knights work fine in this edition, we don't need artificial boosters like that (people complain enough already ;) ).

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't see why you'd need him for that strategy though. Dump him, then re-invest the points into another Interceptor squad? More bodies, more psycannon

 

When I can get a GKGM who costs 80 points (with a MC NDH), I'll consider it. ;)

[bl00d bath76]

Okay. Reclusiarch Darius. You seem to be misreading the point of this unit in my opinion. I said how this unit would be good in any army build and i stand by this point. Firstly you will very rarely be shooting with this unit. Secondly because of no scatter turn one this does not mean you drop in the centre of their army and shoot storm bolters. You put them down so only a few units can reach them (in cover). This way your opponent will strugle to deal with them even if you have the rest of your army of the board. If you have your army in reserves then you will go to ground. So this unit will obtain maybe one of two casualties. If more are dieing then your possisioning is wrong. Next turn the rest of your army comes in with help of psychic communion and shoots. Then you move to assault etc...

 

If you have a mech list you use this unit as a distraction and, if placed correctly, should draw firepower from the rest of your army and with a 3+ cover they should absorb quite a lot. This is what you are paying your points for. To help your rhinos or other units survive as you force your opponent to deal with the most imediate threat placed right in front of them. Therefore this unit works in any army and is a really good way to get grand strategy.

[bl00d bath76]

ause six or more S8+ wounds on the unit, you're in with a chance. Krak missiles can get him through torrenting (yeah he can't be picked out in close-combat, but he's still a unique model and thus rolls to save seperately). Like with Paladins, if he rolls that 1, poof the entire unit disappears.

 

Remember this has to be from one unit. Very few units in the game can do that reliably. and even if this does happen the unit has fulfiled its purpose by distracting your opponent from the rest of your army.

 

in every other army Knight players use, an actual Grandmaster and actual Terminators do cool stuff. Like bring psycannons, special grenades, scoring by default, cheaper, actual Troops choice etc.

 

That is not the reason your taking this unit. Your taking it to make the rest of your army last longer. That is where your points are going.

 

6 Terminators with no special weapons, showing up in an enemy backline. That doesn't sound to me like 'putting pressure on'. It seems more like you're feeding a small unit to the enemy that can easily be ganked, because no one else is nearby to support them. Suicide deepstrike works with meltaguns, not with storm bolters.

 

With careful placment only 1 or 2 should die. As i have said before if more are dieing then your placment is wrong, also they will rarely fire the stormbolters.

 

Why would you 'Go to Ground'? Your next turn will then consist of your 400pt unit doing nothing. Nobody is going to bother shooting you, they might try charging you if they think they can weather the handful of halberd attacks that actually hit.

They don't draw fire, because outside of close-combat, they don't do much (and even in close-combat, they're pretty lackluster, even with a Banner).

 

If your entire army is of the board then that is the only unit they CAN shoot at. Put it this way if you have this unit right next to 2 long fang squads ready to multi-assault are you going to save your long fangs or are you going to shoot at the rest of your army on the other side of the board. Also thats what you have the first to the fray rule so that you are in range to assault

 

Except as you've come to realise, no one else is nearby. Therefore, the entire point of 'First Into the Fray' is lost, because it's essentially a suicide venture. Mordrak and his FailKnights show up, rattle of some storm bolter, look scary, then get shot+charged to death. Meanwhile, your tiny army (remember, 400pt deficit) tries to advance before the enemy gets bored kicking in Mordrak's face and goes for something challenging.

 

You should place yourself so next turn you can assault a vulnerable unit which is what forces your opponent to deal with the threat. The only way they will get whiped out is if the opponent parking lots or castles up, in which case you do not deepstrike that close. They should survive and if it takes your opponents entire shooting phase to do so then they have done their job.

 

You haven't explained how he fits with any of those armies.

 

Previous post i did shows how he fits into all the armies.

 

If you're dead-set on using him, you HAVE to take this upgrade. Otherwise, their tiny number of attacks is meaningless. It gets better the more Ghost Knights you spawn, and it exactly replaces the number of attacks lost, so at 'worst' its making up for the Banner Bearer losing his NFW.

 

If you have a spare 25 points then go for it. Personaly i think the points can be better spent elsewhere because the banner works both ways. as soon as you lose casualties which you will it gets worse.

 

Since when was 400pts of 'never can score' cheap? Durability relies on your being in cover, which may or may not be the case.

 

You will always deepstrike into cover. If you do not then you are not playing this unit correctly.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Thanks Valerian, found it no problem.

 

I love the flavor of Mordrak and his spectral support, but coming in at 400pnt is a little costly for my army right now. I want to run him but for 1K to 1500K lists, I think we have better options. One's that allow us more diversity, more bodies, and even a few better abilities. I am not nay saying him whatsoever, in fact this thread has given me several good ideas to try out once I get to the points level that makes his inclusion comfortable.

 

I got really excited when reading the thread that Gentleman Loser started wherein somebody miss read the Summoning, and thought you could "summon" vehicles to your libby. Alas this was inaccurate, but piqued my interest in Mordrak none the less. Plus the chance to paint some ghostly looking TDA sounds like a blast!!

 

End of Line

[Reclusiarch Darius]

When I can get a GKGM who costs 80 points (with a MC NDH), I'll consider it.

 

Maybe I was being unclear lol. What I meant was, why would you spend 400pts when you could spend about 100pts less and get another Interceptor squad? Depending on how you upgrade them, you could even fit in a generic Grandmaster.

Mordrak and his friends are just a big point-sink in that kinda army. Other units offer so much more.

 

Okay. Reclusiarch Darius. You seem to be misreading the point of this unit in my opinion. I said how this unit would be good in any army build and i stand by this point. Firstly you will very rarely be shooting with this unit.

 

Ok, so you're landing and....stand around looking pretty? Thats a mighty fine use of 400pts right there

 

Secondly because of no scatter turn one this does not mean you drop in the centre of their army and shoot storm bolters. You put them down so only a few units can reach them (in cover). This way your opponent will strugle to deal with them even if you have the rest of your army of the board. If you have your army in reserves then you will go to ground. So this unit will obtain maybe one of two casualties. If more are dieing then your possisioning is wrong. Next turn the rest of your army comes in with help of psychic communion and shoots. Then you move to assault etc...

 

A lot of really bad assumptions here. Firstly, why are you paying for no-scatter Deepstrike (and it's a huge premium), if you're not going to use it? As I said before, put them on the edge of your DZ, walk them to where you want your welcome mat/forward firebase, does the same thing.

Any opponent that struggles to deal with 6 Terminators is someone you can beat without Mordrak. Thats assuming they even bother targeting Mordrak+friends.

If your army is on the table (what little there will be, with a 400pt chunk sitting near enemy lines doing, as you've admitted, precisely nothing), then your opponent will just target your actual army. If your army is in Reserve, he'll just shoot Mordrak to pass time until they do show up.

Nothing says your army comes on next turn. It could be you don't get 'Communion' off (either because you've had the power fail, or shut down by enemy wargear/abilites), or that you roll badly for Reserves (even on a 3+, it can happen).

When you move to assault, the enemy has had a whole turn to reposition his guys and plan out how he'll approach Mordrak. Even if you initially landed in an excellent 'surprise' position, it doesn't matter. You'll either be trudging through a wall of fire (if he chooses not to get closer and assault, you'll have to walk into combat to make it happen, or else you spend more turns doing nothing), or you'll be getting mobbed in close-combat (because you landed out of support of the rest of the army). You're neither anymore durable or more powerful than regular Terminators, so whatever your opponent has that does the job, he'll be applying it.

 

If you have a mech list you use this unit as a distraction and, if placed correctly, should draw firepower from the rest of your army and with a 3+ cover they should absorb quite a lot. This is what you are paying your points for. To help your rhinos or other units survive as you force your opponent to deal with the most imediate threat placed right in front of them. Therefore this unit works in any army and is a really good way to get grand strategy.

 

Again, more dubious assumptions. What if you're opponent doesn't take the bait? After all, Mordrak+friends are slow, they only have a handful of S4 shots, and they can't score.

Anti-tank will not be aimed at Mordrak over your Rhinos, if you're opponent is halfway intelligent. If your 'distraction' was a Paladin unit, or even a 10-man Terminator unit, then yes, their close-combat prowess, staying power and psycannons (the last part is what draws attention over all the others) would draw anti-tank fire (especially with Pallies).

 

However, there are armies which don't want or need a 'distraction' unit, because either their entire army is elite warriors (Draigowing), they're MSU and don't believe in spending a lot of points on Deathstars (MSU Purifiers/Strikes), or in a Coteaz army where they may have the points free (due to dirt-cheap scoring Razorbacks), but not the HQ slot (because the Librarian is needed more). So no, I don't think you have made a strong case for any of those armies to have Mordrak. Even in a 'normal' list with a mixture of units, Mordrak is still a questionable choice, because what he brings to the mix is done better elsewhere cheaper.

 

Remember this has to be from one unit. Very few units in the game can do that reliably. and even if this does happen the unit has fulfiled its purpose by distracting your opponent from the rest of your army.

 

Yeah, but again, you're assuming they do distract. Whereas, by your own admission, Mordrak+friends do nothing for a turn, then maybe shoot something Turn 2, then maybe assault something Turn 3. You can't just say 'well, my opponent will always behave this way' and then base your army around it. Because if nothing else, once you have executed it successfully once, that same opponent will come back next time with a different approach.

 

That is not the reason your taking this unit. Your taking it to make the rest of your army last longer. That is where your points are going.

 

What would make the army last longer is investing in more dudes. 400 points buys you two full Strike squads, and for not much more than the Bro Banner on the Ghost Knights, you can make them both pack dual psycannon. Thats a significant increase in your firepower, bodycount, and threat potential. By comparison, Mordrak looks pretty weaksauce.

 

With careful placment only 1 or 2 should die. As i have said before if more are dieing then your placment is wrong, also they will rarely fire the stormbolters.

 

Or maybe they got charged by something that can eat Terminators? These are not Paladins we're talking about, they go down just as easily as Troop Terminators, and Mordrak can only stave off 3 losses.

 

If your entire army is of the board then that is the only unit they CAN shoot at. Put it this way if you have this unit right next to 2 long fang squads ready to multi-assault are you going to save your long fangs or are you going to shoot at the rest of your army on the other side of the board. Also thats what you have the first to the fray rule so that you are in range to assault

 

But you don't factor in your opponents turn. They have ample time to move stuff they don't want in combat with you, and to reposition units they can either sacrifice, tarpit or beat you down with. If they placed a hole in their gunline big enough for Mordrak to fit into, again, you don't need him to win against someone that incompetent. Most people are going to place their shooty units in small buildings (you still roll for Mishap if you hit impassable terrain), or bubblewrap them if such sniping positions are unavailable (to counter exactly the strategy you are proposing).

 

You should place yourself so next turn you can assault a vulnerable unit which is what forces your opponent to deal with the threat. The only way they will get whiped out is if the opponent parking lots or castles up, in which case you do not deepstrike that close. They should survive and if it takes your opponents entire shooting phase to do so then they have done their job.

 

In which case, you are wasting 'First Into the Fray' because it doesn't give you anything over just walking to a forward position from your DZ (which is something other units can do anyway, hence making Mordrak irrelevant). I'm sure your opponent will often ignore Mordrak on the turn he lands (unless he's in charge threat range, but like I said, he just has to reposition away/send in a close-combat unit to do the job). If you do 'Go To Ground' (as I think you suggested earlier), then thats two turns he can ignore you for.

 

If you have a spare 25 points then go for it. Personaly i think the points can be better spent elsewhere because the banner works both ways. as soon as you lose casualties which you will it gets worse.

 

What could possibly be more important? It's the price Marines pay for powerfists, and you know how many you see of them in most MeQ lists. Your stated aim is to land a credible close-combat unit in enemy lines to 'distract' them. Without a Banner, you don't have a hope of doing so. Yes, as Ghost Knights die, the Banner worsens, but you'd have to be down to the Bearer and like Mordrak before it stops being useful. +1A to every model, and auto-force weapons is huge. If I could buy Banners on non-TDA units, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

You will always deepstrike into cover. If you do not then you are not playing this unit correctly.

 

And roll for Mishap? Or perhaps Dangerous Terrain? I agree, landing in the open is worse, but just taking this unit is my definition of 'doing it wrong with Knights'. They offer nothing the army needs, and impose a huge point deficit on your list.

 

I love the flavor of Mordrak and his spectral support, but coming in at 400pnt is a little costly for my army right now. I want to run him but for 1K to 1500K lists, I think we have better options. One's that allow us more diversity, more bodies, and even a few better abilities. I am not nay saying him whatsoever, in fact this thread has given me several good ideas to try out once I get to the points level that makes his inclusion comfortable.

 

I think I've had an epiphany. Mordrak is actually an Apocalypse formation they accidentally included in our codex. :( Oh silly me, he's a vortex grenade caddy!

 

Step 1: Land next to enemy Titan/tank/artillery/monster formation on Turn 1

Step 2: Throw Holy Holy Hand Grenade of Transdimensional Breaching

Step 3: Laugh

[Gentlemanloser]

Maybe I was being unclear lol. What I meant was, why would you spend 400pts when you could spend about 100pts less and get another Interceptor squad? Depending on how you upgrade them, you could even fit in a generic Grandmaster.

Mordrak and his friends are just a big point-sink in that kinda army. Other units offer so much more.

 

;)

 

Let's assume you want a unit of 5 Terminators and a GKGM.

 

The Terminators all cost the same points, so it's then a comparison of Mordrak to a GKGM.

 

Sure, the GKGM can take 'nades. But. You can't get a GKGM (lets assume you really want TGS) with a MC NDH for 80 points.

 

Which if Mordrak spawn 3 free terminators, is effectively his cost.

 

On top of that is the untargetable NDH in CC, and only costing a single Kill point. Let alone the first turn DS anywhere you want (in your own Deployment Zone if necessary...).

 

I think I've had an epiphany. Mordrak is actually an Apocalypse formation they accidentally included in our codex. Oh silly me, he's a vortex grenade caddy!

 

Step 1: Land next to enemy Titan/tank/artillery/monster formation on Turn 1

Step 2: Throw Holy Holy Hand Grenade of Transdimensional Breaching

Step 3: Laugh

 

I did that with Dante. Killed a Baneblade.

 

But Dante doesn't come in first turn without using a strategic Assest on him!

 

Mordrak > Dante ;)

 

And roll for Mishap? Or perhaps Dangerous Terrain? I agree, landing in the open is worse, but just taking this unit is my definition of 'doing it wrong with Knights'. They offer nothing the army needs, and impose a huge point deficit on your list.

 

You would never mishap with Mordrak (even facing Warp Quake. Unless for some reason there's nowhere safe to land.). And instead of DSing into it and taking a DT test, there's always DSing next to it, and running. Hey, it's only 6 Stormbolters after all ;)

[jeffersonian000]

I've posted my Ghostwing list in other threads, and discussed its virtues before, so this is a summary.

 

I take Mordrak + Ghosts + Librarian w/ Homer, some skulls and a few powers, which I 1st turn DS exactly where I want them based on my opponents list, deployment, and mission objectives. My strategic goal is to disrupt my opponent's plan, while my tactical goal is to keep the Librarian alive for the entire game. Turn 2, Psychic communion lets me have a great chance to bring in one or both of my GKT squads via DS, which are placed again exactly where I want them based on my needs and the objectives of the game. If for some odd reason neither of my two GKT squads are available, but my Interceptor squad is, depending on which Grand Strategy I gave them, will see the Interceptors either outflanking or DS'ing (a decision I made before the game), where they will again be in a place I chose for them to go based on my needs at the time. Then follows turn 3, 4, and 5, possibly 6 and 7. All this time, I have set the pace of the game to my terms (with my Termies), and at no point did my army do something I did not have a plan for before the game even started. Based on objectives, my Interceptors or Termies could be combat squaded or kept together. All of my units have one Psycannon and one Daemonhammer per 5 models (with the exception of the Ghost Knights, who lack a Psycannon but do have Warp Rift via the Librarian).

 

I'm actively chosing to retain combat flexibility with a get-in-your-face army. It works for me. There is an intimidation factor in tournament play that goes a long way towards controlling the outcome of the match. In friendly games, I can chose to a less "A-hole" deployment and keep the game friendly. But in the end, it all comes down to Mordrak giving me the ability to remove a level of randomness from the game, which is worth his 400pt price tag.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Let's assume you want a unit of 5 Terminators and a GKGM.

 

The Terminators all cost the same points, so it's then a comparison of Mordrak to a GKGM.

 

Sure, the GKGM can take 'nades. But. You can't get a GKGM (lets assume you really want TGS) with a MC NDH for 80 points.

 

Which if Mordrak spawn 3 free terminators, is effectively his cost.

 

On top of that is the untargetable NDH in CC, and only costing a single Kill point. Let alone the first turn DS anywhere you want (in your own Deployment Zone if necessary...).

 

Not so fast. Whilst both Ghost Knights and Troop Terminators have access to a Bro Banner, only Troop Terminators have psycannons.

I don't think you quite understand how game-changing those nades can be. Blind grenades rob an opponent of all charge bonus attacks. Unless they're WS5, they lose about another half just trying to hit you. Without those additional attacks, they might not get enough hits to make a difference. Rad grenades, unlike 'Hammerhand', are always on, and they let you hurt stuff that would otherwise require a hammer or really good 'to wound' rolls.

Where is the 80pts coming from? By my reckoning, you can get a 5-man Terminator squad with psycannon or Bro Banner, and a Grandmaster for 400pts. Also, I'm not going to waste points downgrading my Grandmaster to I1. I like having a 3+ invul in close-combat and hitting at I5.

Again, you're assuming he will spawn those free Terminators.

 

 

I did that with Dante. Killed a Baneblade.

 

But Dante doesn't come in first turn without using a strategic Assest on him!

 

Mordrak > Dante

 

Haha nice. Like I said, I think in Apoc, Mordrak is winrar with a vortex grenade.

 

You would never mishap with Mordrak (even facing Warp Quake. Unless for some reason there's nowhere safe to land.). And instead of DSing into it and taking a DT test, there's always DSing next to it, and running. Hey, it's only 6 Stormbolters after all

 

Yeah, but the Run roll can screw you, and if you're trying to land within charge range of a shooty squad, the enemy will probably try to set it up so you have to land in terrain. Like I said, you're putting a lot of faith into scenarios which may or may not eventuate. Making that many assumptions of an opponent, the playing field etc is a recipe for disaster.

 

I take Mordrak + Ghosts + Librarian w/ Homer, some skulls and a few powers, which I 1st turn DS exactly where I want them based on my opponents list, deployment, and mission objectives. My strategic goal is to disrupt my opponent's plan, while my tactical goal is to keep the Librarian alive for the entire game.

 

I'm really doubtful he will, if you're landing him so close to enemy lines

 

Turn 2, Psychic communion lets me have a great chance to bring in one or both of my GKT squads via DS, which are placed again exactly where I want them based on my needs and the objectives of the game.

 

And if neither show up, or 'Communion' doesn't get cast successfully, what then?

 

If for some odd reason neither of my two GKT squads are available, but my Interceptor squad is, depending on which Grand Strategy I gave them, will see the Interceptors either outflanking or DS'ing (a decision I made before the game), where they will again be in a place I chose for them to go based on my needs at the time.

 

Again, if 'Communion' doesn't go off, its entirely possible these guys won't show up either. Thats the drawback of Reserving, it's hard to rely on any one squad (or sometimes, even several, or all) showing up when you want them to. I wouldn't be Outflanking or Deepstriking with them either, thats something a Strike squad can do for free. You should be leveraging the superior mobility of the Interceptors, shunting or at least jumping+running them to where they're needed. Save the Outflank bonus for slower units that need it (like Purifiers, Dreadnoughts etc).

 

Then follows turn 3, 4, and 5, possibly 6 and 7. All this time, I have set the pace of the game to my terms (with my Termies), and at no point did my army do something I did not have a plan for before the game even started.

 

Thats all very interesting, but you're not planning for your opponent at all. What if you get a unit you want from Reserves, but it gets destroyed next turn before impacting on the game at all? A couple of Terminator squads coming in piecemeal is actually ideal for your opponent, because it means he can focus fire as he wishes. Had you deployed them all at once, advancing under the 'Shrouding' and 'Sanctuary' auras of your Librarian, he would've had tougher decisions to make.

 

This is precisely why I don't favour all-Deepstrike lists without mechanics like Drop Pod Assault or Deathwing Assault. In those two armies, half their forces deploy Turn 1, without any reliance on psychic powers, or overpriced characters. Subsequent reinforcements are subject to such things, but wielding those lists, you factor that in by taking only your most devastating units in the first wave. Knights don't have an army like that, Mordrak deploys and fights alone for a whole enemy turn.

 

Based on objectives, my Interceptors or Termies could be combat squaded or kept together. All of my units have one Psycannon and one Daemonhammer per 5 models (with the exception of the Ghost Knights, who lack a Psycannon but do have Warp Rift via the Librarian).

 

I would strongly advise against combat squadding either unit. Normal Terminators are woeful at 5-man, as both their close-combat and ranged damage output is pretty small. In a 10-man unit with double psycannon and Banner, they present a credible threat and are much harder to eliminate.

Interceptors are essentially just Strike squads with jump packs. Again, like with Terminators, your threat potential at 5-man is pretty pathetic. Even as a full squad, they still definitely work best as a shooty support unit, not an assault unit.

If you do combat squad, it should be for overloading the same enemy unit, not for splitting them up across the board. The advantages of combat squadding are that it makes a larger unit more durable against focus firing, because now your opponent can only target one of two units. The disadvantage is that you can snipe out characters or important squad members more easily than if you present the full unit to the enemy.

 

'Warp Rift' is a poor substitute for actual psycannons. Its good in a pinch, but I wouldn't count on it (auto-pen is nice, but no AP1 means you're at the mercy of the damage roll).

[Gentlemanloser]

Where is the 80pts coming from?

 

Mordrak - Cost of three Terminators (that you could potentially get for free).

[BrotherWasted]

Which you won't the majority of the time.

 

This concept of Mordrak costing 80pts is complete hogwash. One instant death wound (being that he is NOT an Eternal Warrior), and you've just washed 400pts down the drain.

[jeffersonian000]

I take Mordrak + Ghosts + Librarian w/ Homer, some skulls and a few powers, which I 1st turn DS exactly where I want them based on my opponents list, deployment, and mission objectives. My strategic goal is to disrupt my opponent's plan, while my tactical goal is to keep the Librarian alive for the entire game.

 

I'm really doubtful he will, if you're landing him so close to enemy lines

 

Oh, Reclusiarch! Poking wholes where and however you want, but in the end it just shows how much of an armchair general your comments come out to be. I'm stating what I do and why, with a reactive yet agressive playstyle. Yes, my Librarian will live for the entire game most of the time, due to the bubble of ablative wounds he's wrapped in from the Ghost Knight squad he is attached to. And why would anyone be stupid enough to plop Mordrak down in the middle of a killing field? Bad assumption on your part.

 

As to "What if Psychic Communion doesn't work/unit(s) aren't available/unit(s) gets destroyed upon arrival" scenarios ... so what? Its a game, and I'm gaming it to an advantage. Most of the time all my units can come in on turn 2, and I'm not able to adjust by 1 point to delay the ones I want delayed. What do I do when that happens? Roll with it. Make informed decisions. Midigate weaknesses by up-playing strengths. Make a bad situation pay off by making less errors while making as many good choices as I can. No one game defines all other games, just as no one list defines all other lists.

 

One thing you seem to be ignoring is that I can choose where (and for the most part when) my other units will arrive. This is huge! It cannot be stated enough how removing this one layer of randomness can truly effect how an army can synergize. I can choose to play my entire army inside my opponents deployment zone, if I feel that that's the right thing for me to do with that specific opponent. I can chose to deploy in cover and out of range if that's the right thing to do. If my opponent plays more aggrssively than I do, I can chose to kite them with moving fire if that's the right thing to do at the time!

 

With Mordrak and the list I've decided to focus on playing, I'm not married to one strategy, one deployment, one way of playing. Mordrak, his Knights, the GKT, the Interceptors, and the Librarian allow me to be a Water Warrior, set the pace, to push when and where needed or to pull back when and where needed.

 

Yes, there are tough lists for me, Draigowing being one of them. The DE player in my neck of the woods isn't very good, so I cannot say that I have a handle on defeating a competent DE list. Against Marines, I'm doing quite well, thank you. IG get eaten up. Sisters get crushed. Orks are target practice. Daemons give me a run for my money, but I've been able to force a draw each time I should have rightly lost. Eldar and Tau have to be finessed, if played right, and get crushed like Guard if not. But that is my local venue and tournament circuit. Time will tell if I'm on to something or not.

 

So, Reclusiarch, poke wholes all you want.

 

SJ

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I play tested Mord this weekend was pleased with his performance.

[Gentlemanloser]

Which you won't the majority of the time.

 

This concept of Mordrak costing 80pts is complete hogwash. One instant death wound (being that he is NOT an Eternal Warrior), and you've just washed 400pts down the drain.

 

I've never said you would 100% of the time.

 

I've always said it was a possibility to get all three.

 

And it's happened to me, it's not that hard to do. And I've also lost a full Squad by Mordrak suffering an ID attack.

 

Still, if you want an average, let's call Mordrak's free Terminators as one and a half. Making his cost, on average, 140 points. At the least, more often then not (sufferign enough torrents ot kill him outright rather than spawn anything in a single attack), you will always get a single Terminator, making him cost 160 Points.

 

For a GKGM with a MC NDH and TGS, that's still a price that's hard to beat, ignoring his First to the Fray! :P

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Still, if you want an average, let's call Mordrak's free Terminators as one and a half. Making his cost, on average, 140 points. At the least, more often then not (sufferign enough torrents ot kill him outright rather than spawn anything in a single attack), you will always get a single Terminator, making him cost 160 Points.

 

For a GKGM with a MC NDH and TGS, that's still a price that's hard to beat, ignoring his First to the Fray! :lol:

 

I agree with all this, and I like Mordrak, although I haven't used him yet. But you left a bit out. Yes Mordrak can be a good deal, comparing HQ to HQ. But part of his 'cost' is the price you pay for non-scoring non-psycannon toting terminators. That's a 'negative' or a 'penalty' for taking him. How to value that points wise is not really clear, but it is there. That should not be ignored in the comparison.

[Gentlemanloser]

Very good point!

 

The Ghost Knights can't score, and can't benefit from Mordraks TGS.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Mordrak - Cost of three Terminators (that you could potentially get for free).

 

Thats a pretty silly way to cost a character. His regen of Terminators is entirely dependent on him taking the wounds (meaning he has to fail his save, not the other guys). He costs 200pts, so does his retinue. Ergo, he is not 'an 80pt Grandmaster with a MC daemonhammer', he's a 200pt albatross round your neck, compounded if you take his retinue.

 

Oh, Reclusiarch! Poking wholes where and however you want, but in the end it just shows how much of an armchair general your comments come out to be.

 

Oh noes, he called me names :P I guess I must be wrong

 

I'm stating what I do and why, with a reactive yet agressive playstyle.

 

:lol: Reactive yet aggressive? Are you even reading what you write? Your placing of Mordrak+friends in enemy lines is aggressive, as is bringing down friends nearby to join the party. Thats an aggressive incursion into enemy lines. There is nothing 'reactive' about it, you are taking the initiative and actively spoiling for a fight.

 

Yes, my Librarian will live for the entire game most of the time, due to the bubble of ablative wounds he's wrapped in from the Ghost Knight squad he is attached to.

 

Mmm, nice bubble you've got going there, all 6 Terminators. You do realise that Libby is going to be priority target no.1 right? He packs the most psychic powers, he carries the teleport homer to bring in your friends, and he buffs said units better than anyone. So no, I don't rate his chances very highly, if you're placing him so close to the enemy, and they have every reason to kill him.

 

And why would anyone be stupid enough to plop Mordrak down in the middle of a killing field? Bad assumption on your part.

 

Well, by definition, your strategy relies on landing Mordrak+friends near enemy lines, to leverage the teleport homer carried by the Libby, and the subsequent landings of friendly troops to be within shoot+assault range. I'm actually going off your prior statements about this man, its not my masterful stratagem. Just sayin, if you're not doing that, then Mordrak is a complete waste of time, because normal deployment+a turn or two of movement (depending on enemy deployment) would get all your guys into a forward firebase to the enemy (ie within shooting distance). If you're not landing him closer than that, why bother?

 

As to "What if Psychic Communion doesn't work/unit(s) aren't available/unit(s) gets destroyed upon arrival" scenarios ... so what? Its a game, and I'm gaming it to an advantage. Most of the time all my units can come in on turn 2, and I'm not able to adjust by 1 point to delay the ones I want delayed. What do I do when that happens? Roll with it. Make informed decisions. Midigate weaknesses by up-playing strengths. Make a bad situation pay off by making less errors while making as many good choices as I can. No one game defines all other games, just as no one list defines all other lists.

 

So what? I'm pointing out critical problems with your entire strategy. If such scenarios come up, then your plan falls apart rather quickly. This is a real issue, because you are relying heavily on things going your way. If things don't work out, Mordrak is left out in the cold, your army arrives piecemeal or not at all, and the enemy regains the initiative your sought to take from him. How is that not a glaring weakness with your strategy?

 

One thing you seem to be ignoring is that I can choose where (and for the most part when) my other units will arrive. This is huge! It cannot be stated enough how removing this one layer of randomness can truly effect how an army can synergize. I can choose to play my entire army inside my opponents deployment zone, if I feel that that's the right thing for me to do with that specific opponent. I can chose to deploy in cover and out of range if that's the right thing to do. If my opponent plays more aggrssively than I do, I can chose to kite them with moving fire if that's the right thing to do at the time!

 

No, you don't get to choose at will. You have a Reserve modifier that may or may not go off ('Communion' can be blocked, or you could fail to cast it successfully, or Mordrak could be dead), and even should it succeed, it's not a certainty. I'd be churlish to deny that it's not a powerful advantage, but it's not something I'd risk an army on. If you were trying to bring on a couple of key units to support the rest of the army, then yeah, 'Communion' is good. Relying on it across an entire army is quite a different thing.

The flexibility your speak of is inherent to the army, not to your strategy. Also, you are not free to place your squads wherever your want, you are forced to by your own plans to concentrate everyone around Mordrak (because he's useless outside of close-combat), because he's your only way to prevent scatter and thus potential Dangerous Terrain/Mishap rolls.

 

With Mordrak and the list I've decided to focus on playing, I'm not married to one strategy, one deployment, one way of playing. Mordrak, his Knights, the GKT, the Interceptors, and the Librarian allow me to be a Water Warrior, set the pace, to push when and where needed or to pull back when and where needed.

 

You are married to one strategy. It's called 'quickly land everything I have in support of Mordrak, before he dies and loses my teleport homer and support Librarian'. If you don't follow that strategy, you are condemning Mordrak+Libby to death, and risking other squads to Dangerous Terrain/Mishap tests that you've paid a substantial amount of points (over 500) to avoid.

Being a Deepstriker, you're actually behaving like a Fire Warrior (assuming I've got my terms right). You're being aggressive, and attempting to leverage your superior skills in hand to hand combat. Once you're that close to the enemy, the relative slowness of your army (remember, no transports) is going to cost you if you attempt to retreat.

 

Yes, there are tough lists for me, Draigowing being one of them. The DE player in my neck of the woods isn't very good, so I cannot say that I have a handle on defeating a competent DE list. Against Marines, I'm doing quite well, thank you. IG get eaten up. Sisters get crushed. Orks are target practice. Daemons give me a run for my money, but I've been able to force a draw each time I should have rightly lost. Eldar and Tau have to be finessed, if played right, and get crushed like Guard if not. But that is my local venue and tournament circuit. Time will tell if I'm on to something or not.

 

I'd expect Draigowing to give your problems, he has about the same number of bodies, but they're all Paladins so they perform better per model.

I'm surprised DE don't give you more trouble, they're designed to kill small elite armies like yours. Maybe he should try investing in some assault units?

Marines are probably just adjusting. Either that or they have really bad lists, because they have some really good counters to your strategy and units (cheap plasma cannons and plasma guns, Biker Command squads with storm shield+lightning claw, Assault Terminators w/TH+SS, cheap Librarians for screwing your powers at close range).

I'm equally surprised at Guard, because they usually do a number on small elite armies. Is he mech'd up at all?

Sisters are kinda reliant on 'Divine Guidance' to kill you off, so I can see that being a tough matchup. Still, the Canoness doesn't give your problems? Are they using the WD list or the old one?

Orks have enough problems with normal lists, I'm hardly surprised they struggle to deal with you.

Daemons giving you a run? I guess that makes sense, since you both come out of Reserve and piece by piece. Normally though, you should be crushing them hard, halberds+Preferred Enemy is insanely good.

Eldar do require certain units and combo's to defeat you, but their psychic defense is formidable (Mind War can snipe out Mordrak or your Libby, Runes of Warding screws with your powers). Tau should auto-lose (I know, I used to play them -_- ) so he must be working hard to eke out wins against you.

 

I'd wait for your opponents to adjust and come up with solid counters before deciding on it man. In my area, Draigowing is the new 'god list' that no one can seem to smack down. Yet I'm sure within a few months, it'll be as dead as the Nob Bikers etc that preceded it.

 

So, Reclusiarch, poke wholes all you want.

 

Contrary to your beliefs, I'm actually not just being negative for its own sake. I'm just seeing a lot of really bad ideas being mooted, and I feel that if I point such things out, you might change your ideas of how to work Mordrak into your army. I'm actually confident he does have a role (I hate Crowe far more, but he does have his place), but I don't think the way you're using him will work out in the long run. I get the nagging feeling that like with Crowe, they overshot the mark when trying to re-balance him. As an attachable character, or granting a Turn 1 assault for half your Deepstrikers (as his special 'Grand Strategy' or something) would've made him a very competitive choice. As it stands...I can see him being good as a distraction unit, and a very expensive one at that.

 

I've never said you would 100% of the time.

 

I've always said it was a possibility to get all three.

 

And it's happened to me, it's not that hard to do. And I've also lost a full Squad by Mordrak suffering an ID attack.

 

Still, if you want an average, let's call Mordrak's free Terminators as one and a half. Making his cost, on average, 140 points. At the least, more often then not (sufferign enough torrents ot kill him outright rather than spawn anything in a single attack), you will always get a single Terminator, making him cost 160 Points.

 

For a GKGM with a MC NDH and TGS, that's still a price that's hard to beat, ignoring his First to the Fray!

 

:rolleyes: But he's not 160pts, he's 200pts. The bonus Terminators he generates aren't even a certainty when he takes a wound, it's a D3 that progressively becomes more reliable the more damaged he is (so you typically don't get regens until he's near to death anyway, and maybe not even all three appear). Can people please stop with the sillyness of claiming he's '80 point GM with a MC daemonhammer' or other such nonsense? He costs what he costs, as printed in the codex. This game doesn't let you take discounts on characters based on their abilities, you have to fit them in at the points cost listed.

 

I agree with all this, and I like Mordrak, although I haven't used him yet. But you left a bit out. Yes Mordrak can be a good deal, comparing HQ to HQ. But part of his 'cost' is the price you pay for non-scoring non-psycannon toting terminators. That's a 'negative' or a 'penalty' for taking him. How to value that points wise is not really clear, but it is there. That should not be ignored in the comparison.

 

It's actually a very easy comparison, just look at what Troop Terminators do. You lose inherent Stealth, but you gain psycannon access, the ability to go to 10-man, scoring status by default, and a choice of when to Deepstrike. When stacked up against a unit like that, Ghost Knights look pretty weaksauce.

[jeffersonian000]

Oh, Reclusiarch! Poking wholes where and however you want, but in the end it just shows how much of an armchair general your comments come out to be.

 

Oh noes, he called me names :rolleyes: I guess I must be wrong

 

I haven't called you names, yet. But I will call foul on your reading skills.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I haven't called you names, yet. But I will call foul on your reading skills.

 

Orly? What haven't I read properly? I've been careful to quote you directly with my responses, to make sure I wasn't misreading what you were saying. So please, enlighten me as to how I've failed to comprehend your writing properly.