Grand master Mordrak

[Valerian]

I think everyone gets it by now that Darius doesn't care for Mordrak; is anyone still confused on that point? Good. RD has done well at outlining why he doesn't like him, why he doesn't consider him worthwhile, and why he won't take him. I encourage everyone to consider those points if you are thinking about using Mordrak in your army.

 

However, I think that the practical experience of those who actually do use Mordrak to easily outweigh the theoretical arguments of those who do not. SJ uses him, and is successful with him, and plans on continuing to use him. It's just hard to accept all the negativity about this particular SC when many folks are completely happy with what he does for your army.

 

Like all SCs, he come pre-built, so he's got his own unique set of advantages and disadvantages. If, your particular army list, playstyle, and capability are such that his advantages really work for, while his disadvantages really don't detract much, then use him; you'll be happy that you did. As always, the best way to determine if he'll work for you, is to try him out, and to see what you think for yourselves.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

hats a pretty silly way to cost a character.

 

No, it's not.

 

Let's imagine for minute we're laying 400 point limit games.

 

I bring Mordrak and 5 Ghost Knights.

 

During the course of play I get really lucky and roll a 5 followed by a 3 for the first two wounds Mordrak takes. That nets me three free 40 point Terminators, that I could only get by using a 200 point SC.

 

So for his 200 point cost, I got 320 points worth of models. Or rather for his 200 point cost, I gain a free 120 points. Making his overall cost 80.

 

Yes, there are drawbacks, and yes, would won't always get the full 3 free Terminators.

 

But how many free Terminators can you get for a normal GKGM?

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I don't want anything to do with this pissing match boys, but it seems to me we have two valid points being made by two opposite play styles. This thread has given me a well of knowledge so far, lets not get it shut down!! ;)

 

I wish there where renderings of both Mordrak and Thawn so that I could model them based off of something. And with the kind of luck I have, I will finish the two models and then GW will put out the official release.

 

I know for a fact that in my local "meta"(if you can call it that), in your face armies played aggressively dominate, which is why the GhostWing appeals to me. I will be playing a 1500 point game this coming Thursday, I'll let you all know how it went. Or how poor of a general I am!!!! :lol:

 

End of Line

[Godhead]

Please let us know how your 1500 point game goes. I used mordrfak at 1750 with a libby and shunters and it was amazing. However at 1500, i cant make him fit. If you bring a libby with warp quake vs a heavy mech list. It could be disasterous. I've won games on turn 4 vs guard due to warp quakes amazing ability to pen a parking lot. Before the faq i completely wrecked a blood angels mech force where he conceded turn 2. My only issue with mordrak is that you have to play big games to make the most out of him and for me that includes a libby. Im too addicted to sanctuary.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

As someone using Mordrak for quite some time now I'll post my own opinion about him.,

 

I've been running him since the codex came out and I had quite some success with him.

I'm using him in a typical shunt-punch list:

-Mordrak + 4 Ghosts (with banner, not very cost effective but great looking and not too bad)+ =I= with TDA/psycannon

-2 Dreadknights with PT and Incinerators

-5-men Interceptor squad with PC and NDH

-10-men SS-squad with Rhino, PC and NDH

- 5-men SS squad with PC (objective sitter)

- Vindicare

- 1 Psyfleman

I've planned on using this kind of list once the first serious rumours were leaked an I've sticked to it so far. In the end I had to take a GM to unlock the abillity to give the Dreadknights scout resulting in some nasty alpha-strike abillites which are important for that aggressive kind of list. Obviously neither a walking regular GM (too slow), one riding in a LR or SRaven (205+ pts = too expensive point wise for a low model count army) nor a deep striking one (too unreliable = not able to assault till turn 3, might show up too late, might scatter and relies on servo skulls which can be removed) fitted into the army. In the end I sticked with Mordrak who grands Grand Strategy, has huge distraction potential and offers additional alpha-strike potential. Some people already pointed out that Mordrak tends to be isolated from the rest of the army resulting in his early demise, however the situation changes drastically once the enemy has too decide at whom he wants to point his heavy AT weapons: the 2 Dreadknights running amok in his deployment zone, killing off high priority targets and which probably already dealt some major damage, the interceptors which just used their shunt-move to get some nice rear armour shots on important tanks or the 6 terminators sitting in terrain (dangerous terrain tests are not that threatening as people believe them to be, after all you have to roll a 1 first and you still get a 5++ save after that (= 0-1 casualties in most cases, still better than sitting out in the open and wasting the important 3+ cover save) and neither Mordrak nor the Inquisitor I run care too much about losing a wound, former might even spawn another terminator), which are quite resistant both to small arms fire (TDA and both Mordrak and the =I= are able to soak some regular wounds) and AT guns (3+ cover save). Most people tend to focus on the Dreadknights allowing Mordrak's unit to charge enemy units right next to them and contest objectives.

I've had great succcess with both Mordrak and the list in a competitive environment. The list fits my play style and I enjoy playing it. Any attempts to persuade me to play another type of list are futile :D.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mordrak is best used in disruptive style armies such as the one you've just posted. I had a lot of success with my BA DoA army for the same reason - the opponent has some tough choices in terms of target priority. It's very aggressive as a style of play and many opponents will simply get flustered and fold quick. To me this is what SM are all about in general. People who want to sit back and shoot are going to have a hard time wrapping their head around this aggressive style of play.

 

G :D

[jeffersonian000]

Black Orange has it right. Mordrak's Ghost Knights (or even a full Ghostwing) are best played aggressively. You can still pick and choose when and where you army will hit specific enemy units, which is no different from any other army with deep strikers. But what Mordrak brings with him is the ability for you the player to set the pace of the game, forcing your opponent to react to you (very Fire Warrior).

 

With 6th ed being discussed, a Ghostwing will be a power house build along with Draigowing. 1st turn, Mordrak + Ghosts + IC arrive, then immediately assault. You chose which enemy unit to this to, so it'll be the best use of this squad. Then on turn 2, Termies start to drop in next to Mordrak, or on the other side of the field as needed, to immediately assault (or go to cover, or tank hunt, etc). Very dynamic. I'm looking forward to it.

 

SJ

[Adir]

Don't worry about Darius... that's just his favorite method of fishing - trawling :)

 

Mordrak has gotten a bad rap from day one mainly because his Ghost Knights lost their ability to take psycannons (they had it in the playtest 'dex that made the rounds).

 

Objectively he brings a lot to the table over a standard GKGM but he does lack customizability - another point of contention.

 

Best advice - try him yourself in a few games. Let us know what you think.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think everyone gets it by now that Darius doesn't care for Mordrak; is anyone still confused on that point? Good. RD has done well at outlining why he doesn't like him, why he doesn't consider him worthwhile, and why he won't take him. I encourage everyone to consider those points if you are thinking about using Mordrak in your army.

 

Thanks man. I'm hopeful people do find a use for him, because I sorta want him to live up to the hype as well. The thing is though, the ideas people are putting forward aren't that great/realistic.

 

If I may slightly veer off my negative streak for a moment? In a 2.5k game (or Apoc), where points are less of an issue, use him as a welcome mat for some Deepstriking Dreadknights? It lets you avoid taking expensive teleporters on them (which cuts down on their price dramatically, if all you give them is greatswords, which I highly recommend), and they match Mordrak's needs perfectly (ie powerful but expendable fighty units). While the enemy is bricking their collective pants at that, the rest of the army (which will still be a significant force at this point level) moves in to support.

 

However, I think that the practical experience of those who actually do use Mordrak to easily outweigh the theoretical arguments of those who do not. SJ uses him, and is successful with him, and plans on continuing to use him. It's just hard to accept all the negativity about this particular SC when many folks are completely happy with what he does for your army.

 

Hey, I'm happy to be proved wrong by 'in the field' experience, because like I said, Mordrak doesn't appeal to me with my army build, hence I've never used the guy. However, I've done similar stuff to what people are suggesting (except of course that it was a Paladin squad that landed with the Libby+homer, on Turn 2 with no support), and it's really risky. I caught a newbie out with it once, next game he castled and destroyed them. My nasty all-Deepstrike plan went right out the window, with my Terminators+Strikes showing up piecemeal to be fed to pre-positioned enemy units. I only won thanks to objectives (landed my last Strike squad on my home one, contested his with my barely-alive Dreadknight).

 

No, it's not.

 

Let's imagine for minute we're laying 400 point limit games.

 

I bring Mordrak and 5 Ghost Knights.

 

During the course of play I get really lucky and roll a 5 followed by a 3 for the first two wounds Mordrak takes. That nets me three free 40 point Terminators, that I could only get by using a 200 point SC.

 

So for his 200 point cost, I got 320 points worth of models. Or rather for his 200 point cost, I gain a free 120 points. Making his overall cost 80.

 

Yes, there are drawbacks, and yes, would won't always get the full 3 free Terminators.

 

But how many free Terminators can you get for a normal GKGM?

 

(facepalm) Dude, this is exactly what I mean. You are conjuring these figures out of thin air, pretending they mean anything in an actual battle. Yes, theoretically, those extra Terminators are worth points. The reality? You pay a premium on a character, then for his retinue, with the chance (not certainty) of getting a few replacements to the inevitable casualties. So no, Mordrak costs 200pts, as does his retinue. You pay that figure whether all three replacements are conjured up during the battle, and you still pay it even if the squad goes poof on Turn 1 due to bad luck.

 

A normal Grandmaster means I'm not stuck fielding FailKnights with him, I can attach him to Paladins, regular Terminators, or even a Strike squad (people forget those can Deepstrike too). Hell, I can even attach him to Death-Cult if I like.

 

I don't want anything to do with this pissing match boys, but it seems to me we have two valid points being made by two opposite play styles. This thread has given me a well of knowledge so far, lets not get it shut down!!

 

Hey man, it's all good in the hood B) read above to see my suggestion for using Mordrak's ability

 

-Mordrak + 4 Ghosts (with banner, not very cost effective but great looking and not too bad)+ =I= with TDA/psycannon

-2 Dreadknights with PT and Incinerators

-5-men Interceptor squad with PC and NDH

-10-men SS-squad with Rhino, PC and NDH

- 5-men SS squad with PC (objective sitter)

- Vindicare

- 1 Psyfleman

 

First of all, no that Banner is what makes the unit passable in close-combat. You take that out, they go back to being as bad as regular Terminators at 5-man.

Second, you have really low infantry and actual Troop count. Even with making the Dread and Dreadknights scoring, you have really no staying power with that army. Not much dakka either, so I'm curious as to how it fares in shoot outs.

The TDA Inquisitor is interesting, what made you choose him over a Librarian?

 

I've planned on using this kind of list once the first serious rumours were leaked an I've sticked to it so far. In the end I had to take a GM to unlock the abillity to give the Dreadknights scout resulting in some nasty alpha-strike abillites which are important for that aggressive kind of list. Obviously neither a walking regular GM (too slow), one riding in a LR or SRaven (205+ pts = too expensive point wise for a low model count army) nor a deep striking one (too unreliable = not able to assault till turn 3, might show up too late, might scatter and relies on servo skulls which can be removed) fitted into the army.

 

Ok, so you want a GM, but you don't wanna spend points protecting him? Cool, attach him to a Strike squad, camp him back. And if you're worried about spending 205pts on a Stormraven (which is a fallacy btw, you just need a retinue for him, not transportation), why did you feel ok spending about the same on Ghost Knights for Mordrak? Walking GM is fine man, he's a support character not a one-man wrecking ball. Anyway, Knights need a good couple of shooting phases before charging in, so having him hang back with some Terminators/Strikes, then mauling the remainder of the enemy with rad nades etc afterwards works.

 

In the end I sticked with Mordrak who grands Grand Strategy, has huge distraction potential and offers additional alpha-strike potential. Some people already pointed out that Mordrak tends to be isolated from the rest of the army resulting in his early demise, however the situation changes drastically once the enemy has too decide at whom he wants to point his heavy AT weapons: the 2 Dreadknights running amok in his deployment zone, killing off high priority targets and which probably already dealt some major damage, the interceptors which just used their shunt-move to get some nice rear armour shots on important tanks or the 6 terminators sitting in terrain (dangerous terrain tests are not that threatening as people believe them to be, after all you have to roll a 1 first and you still get a 5++ save after that (= 0-1 casualties in most cases, still better than sitting out in the open and wasting the important 3+ cover save) and neither Mordrak nor the Inquisitor I run care too much about losing a wound, former might even spawn another terminator), which are quite resistant both to small arms fire (TDA and both Mordrak and the =I= are able to soak some regular wounds) and AT guns (3+ cover save). Most people tend to focus on the Dreadknights allowing Mordrak's unit to charge enemy units right next to them and contest objectives.

 

Yeah, but arguably, those Dreadknights will get shot at regardless of whether Mordrak is there or not. So actually, it's not about him being in the enemy DZ thats important, it's Scouting those Dreadknights close enough to shunt Turn 1 and threaten stuff. Which is what you can do with a regular GM anyway. Same goes for the Interceptor squad, it's shunting up for fun times regardless of Mordrak's presence. Which begs the question, why bother spending so many points on a unit which, by your own admission, doesn't draw fire? You could just shift the Dread to Elite, buy another Dreadknight+gear and probably still have change to upgrade that 5-man Strike squad into a full unit.

 

I've had great succcess with both Mordrak and the list in a competitive environment. The list fits my play style and I enjoy playing it. Any attempts to persuade me to play another type of list are futile .

 

:P Damn, after I wrote all that response...ah well, well played sir

 

Mordrak is best used in disruptive style armies such as the one you've just posted. I had a lot of success with my BA DoA army for the same reason - the opponent has some tough choices in terms of target priority. It's very aggressive as a style of play and many opponents will simply get flustered and fold quick. To me this is what SM are all about in general. People who want to sit back and shoot are going to have a hard time wrapping their head around this aggressive style of play.

 

Mordrak doesn't do disruption, because he doesn't do anything on the turn he arrives. At least with BA, when they land, meltaguns fire and tanks die horribly. Thats why a DoA list scares newbies, because they don't understand how to beat it yet.

If opponents 'get flustered and fold quick', they're obviously either new or need to play more. I don't know how other people's local scene is, but both Drop Pod lists, Deathwing, Dark Eldar and Daemon armies have all had their time in the sun with the 'land in the gaps in their lines, eat stuff, laugh'. It's cultivated an attitude where people hear the word 'Deepstrike' and instantly start castling, planning out how to block good landing zones with their infantry (stringing them across gaps etc). I've beaten armies like that with Tau, which is sadly just about the only time they do shine (against chunks of an enemy army, landing around them with easy LOS and range).

Again, I reiterate, if you just assume your opponent will lose his cool and you'll win automatically, one day you'll run into someone who doesn't do that. And then your whole battleplan falls on it's face.

 

Black Orange has it right. Mordrak's Ghost Knights (or even a full Ghostwing) are best played aggressively. You can still pick and choose when and where you army will hit specific enemy units, which is no different from any other army with deep strikers. But what Mordrak brings with him is the ability for you the player to set the pace of the game, forcing your opponent to react to you (very Fire Warrior).

 

Actually, no. Y'see, the only unit that lands on Turn 1 is Mordrak. Everyone else waiting in Reserve is subject to the vagaries of dice rolls (to get 'Communion' happening, to keep Mordrak alive so that 'Communion' can be cast and help you, the actual Reserve rolls themselves). So, you could get units you don't want just yet, or maybe in the wrong order. Also, the enemy knows pretty much where you want those units to be, because they have to land in support of Mordrak (otherwise he will be singled out and killed by competent players), because he's carrying the teleport homer (or more precisely, the Librarian is). You are forcing a reaction from your opponent, but it's not something I'd hazard to predict too easily. Some people will just sit there and nuke you with their firepower (IG, Tau etc), others might reposition so all you're facing is vehicle hulls and nothing else able to be charged/shot up (Marines, Eldar etc), others might switch around their units and send in close-combat specialists to mob Mordrak+friends (Chaos, Orks, Black Templars, Marines).

 

With 6th ed being discussed, a Ghostwing will be a power house build along with Draigowing. 1st turn, Mordrak + Ghosts + IC arrive, then immediately assault. You chose which enemy unit to this to, so it'll be the best use of this squad. Then on turn 2, Termies start to drop in next to Mordrak, or on the other side of the field as needed, to immediately assault (or go to cover, or tank hunt, etc). Very dynamic. I'm looking forward to it.

 

Thats a really big if, and as I've said before, it's a very artificial buff. If we get that happening, 6th is going to be horribly broken towards Deepstrike lists (because other playstyles will get ganked hard). There will still be counters, but fewer than there are now.

 

Don't worry about Darius... that's just his favorite method of fishing - trawling

 

I'm just a simple deep-sea fisherman. I know only the sea and her cruel ways....(devolves into slurred sea-shanty)

 

Mordrak has gotten a bad rap from day one mainly because his Ghost Knights lost their ability to take psycannons (they had it in the playtest 'dex that made the rounds).

 

They also lost their cheaper price tag and 10-man unit size. That was a big point in Mordrak's favour; yes you have to pay for the character, but here look at the shiny cheaper Terminators with the same gear. Why oh why did that have to change? Same has to be said of Crowe, his hasty edit to not be attachable seems really weird.

 

Objectively he brings a lot to the table over a standard GKGM but he does lack customizability - another point of contention.

 

No, he really doesn't. In the playtest codex, Mordrak was a strong contender, because we could stomach the lack of grenade options (the only worthwhile wargear upgrade to a generic GM that anyone cares about) if we got awesome special rules unique to the character. Instead, they gimped him too hard, and now we have something that takes a lot of work to be of any use (IMO, a bit too much work).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A friend of mine won a tourney with Mordrak this past weekend. He can't be all that bad, right?

 

G :(

[Gentlemanloser]

(facepalm) Dude, this is exactly what I mean. You are conjuring these figures out of thin air, pretending they mean anything in an actual battle. Yes, theoretically, those extra Terminators are worth points. The reality? You pay a premium on a character, then for his retinue, with the chance (not certainty) of getting a few replacements to the inevitable casualties. So no, Mordrak costs 200pts, as does his retinue. You pay that figure whether all three replacements are conjured up during the battle, and you still pay it even if the squad goes poof on Turn 1 due to bad luck.

 

Conjuring figures out of thin air?

 

Seriously, 400 points of Mordrak + 5 Ghost Knights face off versus 400 points of any other army.

 

Lady luck (or the dice gods) favour you and you now have 520 points worth of units facing your opponents 400 points.

 

It's simple maths.

 

Yes, you pay for Mordrak. But what you get is a guaranteed first turn DS anywhere you want with no scatter. And an IC that can't be singled out in CC. It's like our very own Powerfist Sarge, yet with a MC TH.

 

You pay *no* Premium for Ghost Knights. They are normal Terminators with the Benefit of Stealth and the downside of no special ranged weapons. They still get access to all the normal Terminator CC options.

 

A normal Grandmaster means I'm not stuck fielding FailKnights with him, I can attach him to Paladins, regular Terminators, or even a Strike squad (people forget those can Deepstrike too). Hell, I can even attach him to Death-Cult if I like.

 

Becuase you can't purchase a single Psycannon on them, they're fail Knights? Psycannons are good, for sure. But they aren't the be all and end all, and the Ghost Knights are in no way 'fail' because they can't purchase one.

 

yes you have to pay for the character, but here look at the shiny cheaper Terminators with the same gear.

 

That wasn't the point for the cost break. The cost break was to offset the possibility of losing all of them if Mordrak dies. And it's a stupid idea to have put them up in the actual dex. But that's no bearing on Mordrak himself...

 

Actually, no. Y'see, the only unit that lands on Turn 1 is Mordrak.

 

Scout based Intereptor/PT NDK based lists with everyone deployed Turn 1.

 

Mordrak doesn't do disruption, because he doesn't do anything on the turn he arrives.

 

Ignoring either the Inquisitor in TDA with a Psycannon or GKBC with Incinerator I usually run with him, I've had him drop and Storm Bolter a Thunderfire to death first turn. That was quite a /sadpanda moment for the Marine player who was using it to tremor my 10 man Pally unit.

 

Whatever your weapon layout. A DS with no scatter where ever you want it (and first turn is just the icing on the cake) is the ultimate disruption. Throws a spanner into the works of your opponents plan, even if it's only an unexpected speedbump.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

-Mordrak + 4 Ghosts (with banner, not very cost effective but great looking and not too bad)+ =I= with TDA/psycannon

-2 Dreadknights with PT and Incinerators

-5-men Interceptor squad with PC and NDH

-10-men SS-squad with Rhino, PC and NDH

- 5-men SS squad with PC (objective sitter)

- Vindicare

- 1 Psyfleman

 

First of all, no that Banner is what makes the unit passable in close-combat. You take that out, they go back to being as bad as regular Terminators at 5-man.

Second, you have really low infantry and actual Troop count. Even with making the Dread and Dreadknights scoring, you have really no staying power with that army. Not much dakka either, so I'm curious as to how it fares in shoot outs.

The TDA Inquisitor is interesting, what made you choose him over a Librarian?

Don't get me wrong, the shooty elements in the list are just shooting support (killing APCs (Psyfleman, Strike Squad) or Land Raiders (Vindicare)). Most of the damage the list deals comes from the alpha strikes the Dreadknights, Mordrak and the Interceptors (and maybe the 10x men SS if I roll a 5 or 6 with my Grand Strategy roll allowing me to scout the Rhino 12" within 24" of the enemy and fire 8 PC shots put of the fire port turn 1) will pull off turn 1. I win the games by crippling the enemy in the first 2 turns, taking out the most nasty threats and building up lots of pressure on my opponent. For example an IG gunline which lost all of it's Russes, Manticores and Hydras turn 1 is pretty much a toothless tiger. A shoot out is the worst thing that could occur to that kind of list, lacking bodies I would always be in a lose/lose situation as any army with even a slight focus on the shooting phase will obviously outshoot me. However the list is not that easy to kill as it appears to be on first thought, Mordrak's squad and the Dreadknights are able to survive some serious firepower. If these heavy hitters in my list die before dealing serious damage (which is unlikely but might happen with bad rolls/luck) I'm going to lose anyway (as any deathstar army would in a similar situation).

 

The TDA Inquisitor is interesting, what made you choose him over a Librarian?

He's one of the few HQs which can join the Ghost Knights (which Deep Strike OC) and of these both the cheapest and most cost effective. For +15 pts. compared to a normal Terminator with Psycannon I get + 2 wounds, +1 attack and stubborn for the squad. That way I get the Heavy Weapon Mordrak's unit needs to deal serious damage the turn they arrive (allowing isde/rear armour shots turn 1 which fits with the alpha-strike theme/strategy of my list), makes the whole unit a bit more reliable (stubborn) and with 3 wounds he can easily soak small arms fire which would otherwise kill 3 ghosts in his place. With the majority of his squad being T4 he'll be as hard to wound with small arms fire. Of course he can be insta-gibbed by anything S6+, however with him being so cheap I won't care much if that happens, especially if he already soaked some wounds. Of course he'll give up a KP, but with Mordrak not giving one up on his own I can live with that. The reason I didn't take a librarian is obvious: I don't need one. Without playing a reserve list I don't need him for the teleport homer, the Psycannon more than makes up for warp rift and with the ability to auto pass tests for force weapon activation, the abillity to cast Hammerhand twice and the majority of the squad being equipped with halberds (I6) and the whole squad already having stealth I don't need any of the buff powers. And 160+ pts for another HQ would've been just to expensive for my list, after all I took Mordrak because he's the cheapest way to effectively get Grand Strategy in this list, otherwise I would run a regular GM in a Storm Raven or a Paladin-wall.

.

I've planned on using this kind of list once the first serious rumours were leaked an I've sticked to it so far. In the end I had to take a GM to unlock the abillity to give the Dreadknights scout resulting in some nasty alpha-strike abillites which are important for that aggressive kind of list. Obviously neither a walking regular GM (too slow), one riding in a LR or SRaven (205+ pts = too expensive point wise for a low model count army) nor a deep striking one (too unreliable = not able to assault till turn 3, might show up too late, might scatter and relies on servo skulls which can be removed) fitted into the army.

 

Ok, so you want a GM, but you don't wanna spend points protecting him? Cool, attach him to a Strike squad, camp him back. And if you're worried about spending 205pts on a Stormraven (which is a fallacy btw, you just need a retinue for him, not transportation), why did you feel ok spending about the same on Ghost Knights for Mordrak? Walking GM is fine man, he's a support character not a one-man wrecking ball. Anyway, Knights need a good couple of shooting phases before charging in, so having him hang back with some Terminators/Strikes, then mauling the remainder of the enemy with rad nades etc afterwards works.

Are you seriously telling me to waste the CC abilities (or more exactly: all of his stats) a GM offers and just pay 175+ pts. for D3 special rules? For the very same reason people don't like to play Crowe, because he doesn't add anything to the list except allowing Purifiers to be troops and is an expensive running KP otherwise. If that was the only option I had to get Grand Strategy I would rather buy a naked 25 pts. Inquisitor and invest the points in the rest of my army. On the other hand you seem to miss that a Grand Master (or any independent SM character in existance with the only exceptions being Mephiston and Abaddon) without a retinue is just a running KP, won't do much in CC (before he gets killed in turn) and will easily be killed by some Insta-kill shots to the face if he's running alone or his transport get's shot down and he's up on his own. It's your own decision if you prefer to ignore the whole CC potential a regular GM offers via Rad- and Psycho Grenades if combined with a good CC unit or Mordrak with his ability to easily kill any non-eternal warrior character or monstrous creature with his S10 (Hammerhand) master crafted NDH, WS6, 4+ Attacks and the ability to get automatic force weapon activation on top of that (Banner) without the risk to be singled out (resulting in the most awesome hidden PF-Sergeant in existance). In the end you either run a GM with a tough unit able to run across the whole table whilst soaking wounds (10x men regular Terminators/ 5+ men Paladin squad with wound allocation) or with a smaller retinue and a transport (5 terminators + GM in a Raider/Raven). Both of these options cost a lot more than the cheap Mordrak squad (465 pts instead 560+). A regular GM with fancy Grenades and 5 regular TDA with PC as a deep-striking alternative is just 30 pts. cheaper than the Ghost squad I run but is a lot less reliable and would need additional points invested in an on table Char with psychic communion and servo skulls which would make the whole even more expensive (and they still won't be able to assault till turn 3 and are far easier to kill with plasma and regular small-arms fire).

 

Yeah, but arguably, those Dreadknights will get shot at regardless of whether Mordrak is there or not. So actually, it's not about him being in the enemy DZ thats important, it's Scouting those Dreadknights close enough to shunt Turn 1 and threaten stuff. Which is what you can do with a regular GM anyway. Same goes for the Interceptor squad, it's shunting up for fun times regardless of Mordrak's presence. Which begs the question, why bother spending so many points on a unit which, by your own admission, doesn't draw fire? You could just shift the Dread to Elite, buy another Dreadknight+gear and probably still have change to upgrade that 5-man Strike squad into a full unit.

Heh, depends on the situation. Most of the time my opponents prefer to shoot the Dreadknights first, most of the time at least one of them will survive the first shooting phase, maybe even both if the alpha-strikes dealt enough damage. In the end he'll get charged by both the remaining Dreadknight(s) AND Mordrak and his retinue which are sitting right next to the enemy objective and/or important but immobile heavy support squads (Obliterators, Long Fangs, Devastators etc.). As I mentioned earlier a regular GM won't be able to assault till turn 3+ if he's not riding in an expensive Storm Raven (which can easily be shot down with Krak missiles or Auto cannons which would be wasted on the Dreadknights if such an easy to kill high priority vehicle is on table). If my opponent decides to split fire between the Ghosts and the Dreadknights (worst decision as most likely all three units will survive then) or focus on the Ghosts (likely to survive thanks to the ability to soak small arms fire, to spawn additional bodies and a 3+ cover save) the situation won't change much. Even in the unlikely case the whole units gets whiped out both Dreadknights will still be able to wreck havoc. Don't forget that all of my agressive elements are fast enough to always be in charge range turn 2 to the desired target so there is no easy choice in target priority (perfect example for survivability through saturation of equal threatening units). As I said earlier: If my opponent is not able to kill these elements in the first two turns (or the first turn depending on the situation) he probably already lost.

 

Becuase you can't purchase a single Psycannon on them, they're fail Knights? Psycannons are good, for sure. But they aren't the be all and end all, and the Ghost Knights are in no way 'fail' because they can't purchase one.

Dito, especially if you can still stick a cheap Psycannon =I= to squad.

[Valerian]

If we get that happening, 6th is going to be horribly broken towards Deepstrike lists (because other playstyles will get ganked hard).

 

It won't be too bad, if things go as currently rumored, due to the new scatter rules for Deep Striking units. If you attempt to DS within 6" of enemy units, then you scatter 3d6 inches; if you drop between 6-12 inches away, you scatter 2d6; from 12-18 inches away, just 1d6; anything beyond 18" has no scatter.

 

Units arriving in Drop Pods won't get to assault, so that removes a huge threat from most Marine forces. Units that have rules that decrease scatter will, obviously, have an advantage, and might more easily pull of drop-assaults. Blood Angels with Descent of Angels, for example. They'll only scatter 1d6, if placed just a little over 6" (between 6 and 12") from the enemy. Same thing as our units when placed near a Servo-Skull. Big winners will be assault-oriented units that don't scatter at all, like Commander Dante and whoever you attach him too. Grand Master Mordrak and company will be another.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Conjuring figures out of thin air?

 

Seriously, 400 points of Mordrak + 5 Ghost Knights face off versus 400 points of any other army.

 

Really? Ok, lets take two Deathstars of similar points. First, Tyranids;

 

Prime w/lash whip+bonesword, rending claws, toxin sacs, regen

(115 points)

Warrior w/barbed strangler+lash whip+bonesword, 4 x Warriors w/lash whip+bonesword+rending claws, all w/toxin sacs

(185 points)

 

You land next to me. On average, your six storm bolters do 4 wounds to the Warriors. I take one on the Prime, three on the squad. One Warrior loses 1-2 wounds.

 

Next it's my turn. I charge you, reducing all models to I1. I generate 2-3 unsaved wounds with the Prime alone, and 10 unsaved wounds with the Warriors.

Even with wound allocation, everyone including Mordrak must save two wounds. On average, all the Ghost Knights die, and Mordrak must take a bonesword

to the chest. On a 3D6 roll, if you fail your Leadership, he dies. Assuming he lives, he'll kill the Prime, but next round the remaining Warriors will kill him off

and any Ghost Knights he brings back.

 

Now, with regular Marines:

 

10 x Stormhammers

(400 points)

 

You land next to me. On average, you do no wounds.

Next turn, I charge you. The Ghost Knights go first, inflicting (I'll assume Hammerhand went off) one casualty (3 wounds, 1 storm shield fails).

Mordrak and the remaining 9 Stormhammers duke it out. He inflicts 2-3 wounds, so I'll be generous and say another Stormhammer dies.

However, even whilst Mordrak slaps that guy down, their hammer attacks inflict 11 wounds. You can game it so Mordrak only has to save one

wound, but if he fails it, he dies. The other guys are resoundingly dead. In the next round of combat, Mordrak again slaps down another Stormhammer,

but the remaining hammers finish him off.

 

Lady luck (or the dice gods) favour you and you now have 520 points worth of units facing your opponents 400 points.

 

It's simple maths.

 

I have no idea what you mean by this.

 

Yes, you pay for Mordrak. But what you get is a guaranteed first turn DS anywhere you want with no scatter. And an IC that can't be singled out in CC. It's like our very own Powerfist Sarge, yet with a MC TH.

 

You mean, like how Thawn is one? Or any hammer we take on a squad?

 

You pay *no* Premium for Ghost Knights. They are normal Terminators with the Benefit of Stealth and the downside of no special ranged weapons. They still get access to all the normal Terminator CC options.

 

Becuase you can't purchase a single Psycannon on them, they're fail Knights? Psycannons are good, for sure. But they aren't the be all and end all, and the Ghost Knights are in no way 'fail' because they can't purchase one.

 

Yes you do, because you have to field a 200pt character to unlock them. Furthermore, they can never be scoring, no psycannon access, and they cannot increase their squad size without Mordrak taking wounds and passing his 'help me friends' test. So I would argue, if you're paying the same price as regular Terminators, on top of Mordrak, you are paying a premium. You lose the abilities that make Troop Terminators a credible threat (10-man blob, dual psycannon, scoring), in exchange for an I1 hero who might regen losses (but only 3 max), inherent Stealth (which is meaningless, because you have 'Shrouding' anyway, and in close-combat it has no effect).

 

That wasn't the point for the cost break. The cost break was to offset the possibility of losing all of them if Mordrak dies. And it's a stupid idea to have put them up in the actual dex. But that's no bearing on Mordrak himself...

 

No, it was to avoid precisely the problem we now face with Ghost Knights; they're not actually that great compared to normal Terminators.

 

Scout based Intereptor/PT NDK based lists with everyone deployed Turn 1.

 

Which work regardless of whether Mordrak is in your army or not. If they're not making use of his teleport homer caddy (aka the attached Librarian), why bother?

 

Ignoring either the Inquisitor in TDA with a Psycannon or GKBC with Incinerator I usually run with him, I've had him drop and Storm Bolter a Thunderfire to death first turn. That was quite a /sadpanda moment for the Marine player who was using it to tremor my 10 man Pally unit.

 

Wow, so not even a Libby attached...and no, a single expensive psycannon on an easily-singled out Inquisitor doesn't make up for the lack of actual squad psycannons. Also, it's amusing to do that to people, but the list of things that are vulnerable to six storm bolters is pretty small. Especially when your opponent knows you're coming in Turn 1. As I've said before, smart opponents will bubble wrap and block off sections they don't want surprise shot up, and force you to land where they want.

 

Whatever your weapon layout. A DS with no scatter where ever you want it (and first turn is just the icing on the cake) is the ultimate disruption. Throws a spanner into the works of your opponents plan, even if it's only an unexpected speedbump.

 

I reiterate, you have six storm bolters, seven if you bring the Libby. There is no spanner being thrown, because your opponent already knows what you want to do, and will just work to counter it (some better than others). Deepstrike armies are older than the original Grey Knights, so no, I don't think anyone will be shocked by Turn 1 Deepstrike. Deathwing and regular drop pod armies have been doing it for quite a while.

 

Don't get me wrong, the shooty elements in the list are just shooting support (killing APCs (Psyfleman, Strike Squad) or Land Raiders (Vindicare)). Most of the damage the list deals comes from the alpha strikes the Dreadknights, Mordrak and the Interceptors (and maybe the 10x men SS if I roll a 5 or 6 with my Grand Strategy roll allowing me to scout the Rhino 12" within 24" of the enemy and fire 8 PC shots put of the fire port turn 1) will pull off turn 1. I win the games by crippling the enemy in the first 2 turns, taking out the most nasty threats and building up lots of pressure on my opponent. For example an IG gunline which lost all of it's Russes, Manticores and Hydras turn 1 is pretty much a toothless tiger. A shoot out is the worst thing that could occur to that kind of list, lacking bodies I would always be in a lose/lose situation as any army with even a slight focus on the shooting phase will obviously outshoot me. However the list is not that easy to kill as it appears to be on first thought, Mordrak's squad and the Dreadknights are able to survive some serious firepower. If these heavy hitters in my list die before dealing serious damage (which is unlikely but might happen with bad rolls/luck) I'm going to lose anyway (as any deathstar army would in a similar situation).

 

So, as an alternative, why not Scout a Terminator/Paladin blob into enemy lines in support? They'll last significantly longer than a Strike squad, have combat threat, more frontage for contacting enemy armour (wrapping those tank walls and giving them 'Might of Titan' hugs), and they bring psycannons. Not having Mordrak there really doesn't affect either your staying power or alpha-strike ability.

 

He's one of the few HQs which can join the Ghost Knights (which Deep Strike OC) and of these both the cheapest and most cost effective. For +15 pts. compared to a normal Terminator with Psycannon I get + 2 wounds, +1 attack and stubborn for the squad. That way I get the Heavy Weapon Mordrak's unit needs to deal serious damage the turn they arrive (allowing isde/rear armour shots turn 1 which fits with the alpha-strike theme/strategy of my list), makes the whole unit a bit more reliable (stubborn) and with 3 wounds he can easily soak small arms fire which would otherwise kill 3 ghosts in his place. With the majority of his squad being T4 he'll be as hard to wound with small arms fire. Of course he can be insta-gibbed by anything S6+, however with him being so cheap I won't care much if that happens, especially if he already soaked some wounds. Of course he'll give up a KP, but with Mordrak not giving one up on his own I can live with that.

 

Just seems weird that you'd want to spend that amount of points for just one psycannon. I generally find one isn't enough, you need at least two to achieve significant damage on the target. Also, as I said before, smart opponents are going to only expose what they don't mind losing (so for example, shielding more important tanks with expendable Chimeras).

 

The reason I didn't take a librarian is obvious: I don't need one. Without playing a reserve list I don't need him for the teleport homer, the Psycannon more than makes up for warp rift and with the ability to auto pass tests for force weapon activation, the abillity to cast Hammerhand twice and the majority of the squad being equipped with halberds (I6) and the whole squad already having stealth I don't need any of the buff powers. And 160+ pts for another HQ would've been just to expensive for my list, after all I took Mordrak because he's the cheapest way to effectively get Grand Strategy in this list, otherwise I would run a regular GM in a Storm Raven or a Paladin-wall.

 

I can see your point, but I just feel that if you're willing to spend that many points on a single psycannon, a Libby doesn't seem that cost prohibitive.

 

Are you seriously telling me to waste the CC abilities (or more exactly: all of his stats) a GM offers and just pay 175+ pts. for D3 special rules? For the very same reason people don't like to play Crowe, because he doesn't add anything to the list except allowing Purifiers to be troops and is an expensive running KP otherwise. If that was the only option I had to get Grand Strategy I would rather buy a naked 25 pts. Inquisitor and invest the points in the rest of my army. On the other hand you seem to miss that a Grand Master (or any independent SM character in existance with the only exceptions being Mephiston and Abaddon) without a retinue is just a running KP, won't do much in CC (before he gets killed in turn) and will easily be killed by some Insta-kill shots to the face if he's running alone or his transport get's shot down and he's up on his own. It's your own decision if you prefer to ignore the whole CC potential a regular GM offers via Rad- and Psycho Grenades if combined with a good CC unit or Mordrak with his ability to easily kill any non-eternal warrior character or monstrous creature with his S10 (Hammerhand) master crafted NDH, WS6, 4+ Attacks and the ability to get automatic force weapon activation on top of that (Banner) without the risk to be singled out (resulting in the most awesome hidden PF-Sergeant in existance). In the end you either run a GM with a tough unit able to run across the whole table whilst soaking wounds (10x men regular Terminators/ 5+ men Paladin squad with wound allocation) or with a smaller retinue and a transport (5 terminators + GM in a Raider/Raven). Both of these options cost a lot more than the cheap Mordrak squad (465 pts instead 560+). A regular GM with fancy Grenades and 5 regular TDA with PC as a deep-striking alternative is just 30 pts. cheaper than the Ghost squad I run but is a lot less reliable and would need additional points invested in an on table Char with psychic communion and servo skulls which would make the whole even more expensive (and they still won't be able to assault till turn 3 and are far easier to kill with plasma and regular small-arms fire).

 

No, I'm just saying the mantra of 'you have to buy a Stormraven/Terminator blob apiece' for TDA characters is patently false. You can stick (read CAN, not have to) a Grandmaster in the backfield to support a fire support unit like Purifiers (or even Strikers) with blind+rad nades, and focus on casting 'Communion'. Same applies to Librarians.

On his close-combat ability; no, you're not buying him to be a wrecking ball. Draigo does that job so much better, and arguably the Libby powers-up units to be mini-heroes. A Grandmaster has a decent statline, but without buffs like 'Hammerhand'/rad nades and 'Might', he's not hitting that hard really. His nade unlocks, 'Communion', somewhat decent statline (better than a Libby or Paladin, but still not huge) and 'TGS' combine to make him worth his points. Individually, no, not any one thing makes him worthwhile (and I would argue, at lower point games, a Grandmaster is hard to justify over a Libby). He's a support character who can hold his own, but not win combats single-handedly.

 

On that point however, I would digress by saying that I usually do have him up front, hacking up face. I like to use a Terminator blob at 2k and a Paladin blob at 2.5k, with the Paladin blob combat squadding to each meatshield the Libby and Grandmaster. At 2k, he's tag-teaming with the Librarian in the Terminator blob, providing a backup 'Hammerhand', blind grenades so they can take charges, and rad nades for more reliable wounding (lessening the need for 'Might').

 

Heh, depends on the situation. Most of the time my opponents prefer to shoot the Dreadknights first, most of the time at least one of them will survive the first shooting phase, maybe even both if the alpha-strikes dealt enough damage. In the end he'll get charged by both the remaining Dreadknight(s) AND Mordrak and his retinue which are sitting right next to the enemy objective and/or important but immobile heavy support squads (Obliterators, Long Fangs, Devastators etc.). As I mentioned earlier a regular GM won't be able to assault till turn 3+ if he's not riding in an expensive Storm Raven (which can easily be shot down with Krak missiles or Auto cannons which would be wasted on the Dreadknights if such an easy to kill high priority vehicle is on table). If my opponent decides to split fire between the Ghosts and the Dreadknights (worst decision as most likely all three units will survive then) or focus on the Ghosts (likely to survive thanks to the ability to soak small arms fire, to spawn additional bodies and a 3+ cover save) the situation won't change much. Even in the unlikely case the whole units gets whiped out both Dreadknights will still be able to wreck havoc. Don't forget that all of my agressive elements are fast enough to always be in charge range turn 2 to the desired target so there is no easy choice in target priority (perfect example for survivability through saturation of equal threatening units). As I said earlier: If my opponent is not able to kill these elements in the first two turns (or the first turn depending on the situation) he probably already lost.

 

I know that feeling, my poor Dreadknight rarely survives a single game nowadays. Again though, I would re-iterate that a smart opponent will see your alpha strike strategy coming from a mile away (Mordrak, teleporter units...hmmm, whatever could he be planning?), and deploy defensively to counter it. If your opponent focus fires any one of those units, it will die (Dreadknights can have their 2+ save broken, it happens to me all the time), and 6 Terminators is not too daunting to most armies. You're also assuming he'll just let you reposition to multi-charge. He could place a unit in your way (Guard and Tyranids are great at this, as are Orks), mobbing your units from mutual support in seperate tarpits/speedbumps. He could slam his own assault units into one or more of your alpha strikes, removing that threat and freeing up his firepower to concentrate on the remainder.

 

I'm not saying the strategy is bad (alpha strike is what it is, a huge gamble that can either pay off or kneecap you), but Mordrak isn't neccessary to it. You can field much better alternatives to him, whilst still keeping your 'in yo face' style of army intact.

 

It won't be too bad, if things go as currently rumored, due to the new scatter rules for Deep Striking units. If you attempt to DS within 6" of enemy units, then you scatter 3d6 inches; if you drop between 6-12 inches away, you scatter 2d6; from 12-18 inches away, just 1d6; anything beyond 18" has no scatter.

 

If thats true, then 'Warp Quake' is going to be worth it's weight in gold for us. Again though, a grain of salt...

 

Units arriving in Drop Pods won't get to assault, so that removes a huge threat from most Marine forces. Units that have rules that decrease scatter will, obviously, have an advantage, and might more easily pull of drop-assaults. Blood Angels with Descent of Angels, for example. They'll only scatter 1d6, if placed just a little over 6" (between 6 and 12") from the enemy. Same thing as our units when placed near a Servo-Skull. Big winners will be assault-oriented units that don't scatter at all, like Commander Dante and whoever you attach him too. Grand Master Mordrak and company will be another.

 

Dude, Blood Angels and Daemons will become so overpowered, Knights will be a distant memory by comparison. We have Deepstrike as a mechanic to deliver us within 24" so we can shoot things, then cut up the survivors. Those two armies are meant to land close, unleash some close-range shooting (and get shot up for a turn by the enemy, hence the invul saves/FNP+power armour), but then dominate the close-combat in the turn right after. Currently, the balancing factor is that the enemy get at least a turn of shooting (just like how Sweeping Advance got nerfed to prevent pinball 40k). If they remove that, Deepstrike becomes insanely awesome.

[Gentlemanloser]

Really? Ok, lets take two Deathstars of similar points. First, Tyranids;

 

Which totally misses the point in question...

 

I have no idea what you mean by this.

 

If luck goes your way, Mordraks 200 point cost gives you 120 points worth of minis for free. For 200 points, you get 320 points worth of 'stuff'. In essence making Mordrak cost 80 points.

 

You mean, like how Thawn is one? Or any hammer we take on a squad?

 

Yes. But unlike a GKGM.

 

Yes you do, because you have to field a 200pt character to unlock them. Furthermore, they can never be scoring, no psycannon access, and they cannot increase their squad size without Mordrak taking wounds and passing his 'help me friends' test. So I would argue, if you're paying the same price as regular Terminators, on top of Mordrak, you are paying a premium. You lose the abilities that make Troop Terminators a credible threat (10-man blob, dual psycannon, scoring), in exchange for an I1 hero who might regen losses (but only 3 max), inherent Stealth (which is meaningless, because you have 'Shrouding' anyway, and in close-combat it has no effect).

 

If you're gonna spend 200 points on 5 Terminaotrs, you're gonna spend 200 points on 5 Terminators.

 

With or without Mordrak.

 

Of course there is a trade off between Ghost Knights and regular GKT. But you still pay no premium.

 

(Edit: To clarify, it's not a premium as you don't Take Mordrak becuase you want 5 Ghost Knights. You take 5 Ghost Knights becuase you have Mordrak.)

 

No, it was to avoid precisely the problem we now face with Ghost Knights; they're not actually that great compared to normal Terminators.

 

Utterly incorrect.

 

The only time they had a point break (in the leaked Dex) they also had access to Ranged Special Weapons and all the upgrades normal Terminators had.

 

The *only* reason for the cost break, is as I said, you could lose them all to an unlucky roll or Mordrak getting sniped.

 

They never had a cost break becuase there were worse then Normal GKT, they just as good as GKt, with an added free USR (and cheaper Psybolts).

 

Which work regardless of whether Mordrak is in your army or not. If they're not making use of his teleport homer caddy (aka the attached Librarian), why bother?

 

Becuase you're not always taking a Libby with a TH?

 

The GK army hasn't *really* been designed as a DS force that works in conjunction with THs. Ward tried, with stacking Psychic Communions and Servo Skulls. But the GK as a whole fall short of this.

 

You could get the same effect with two GKGM/Inquisitors (for stacking PC) in Storm Ravens (for the TH), or attached to Incerator totting Purgation Squads.

 

Mordrak isn't there to supply an advanced TH via an attached Libby.

[Adir]

I have played a few games with Mordrak and found him to be an excellent disruption unit.

 

I usually take him with 5 knights and drop them into terrain behind enemy lines.

 

Against wolves/blood angels they show up right behind the obligatory missile spam squads. Against guard they end up behind or to the side of any heavy artillery. Executioners are still a problem but at least you can run and spread out a bit...

 

Basically mordrak helps me to make up for lack of long range fire. Of course, I only run 1 rifleman dread... I am not a fan of spam - so my fault there!

 

Throw him against static back field units - your opponent pretty much is forced to deal with them.

[The Mystic]

I use Mordrak all the time.

 

Have'nt lost a game with him yet.

 

He's not a deathstar ultimate win unit with his ghost knights but with proper placement and not throwing him at targets thats gonna wreck his day your golden!!! I've found he works best useing him against soft units and light vehicles then let the rest of your army deal with the contents. He requires alot of synergy with the rest of your army to work, and if you get it right your army will be a force to be reckoned with.

 

Just my experieces so far. Taking him to Throne of skulls in October so getting plenty of playtesting in before hand.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I've found he works best useing him against soft units and light vehicles then let the rest of your army deal with the contents. He requires alot of synergy with the rest of your army to work, and if you get it right your army will be a force to be reckoned with.

 

So what kind of synergy are you talking about? I am going to do a Mordrak list of some kind and I want to know what works well for you...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Which totally misses the point in question...

 

^_^ You blow my mind sir, because just before

 

Conjuring figures out of thin air?

 

Seriously, 400 points of Mordrak + 5 Ghost Knights face off versus 400 points of any other army.

 

The challenge was accepted. I proved Mordrak+friends get their collective butts handed to them by an army people consider weak (Nids), and an army people consider mid-tier (Marines). I have many other 400pt combo's (in some cases, less or only slightly more than 400) which will likewise stomp all over six Terminators. I'm also not modelling what happens if Mordrak fails a save against S8 at range/close-combat, resulting in entire unit evapouration.

 

If luck goes your way, Mordraks 200 point cost gives you 120 points worth of minis for free. For 200 points, you get 320 points worth of 'stuff'. In essence making Mordrak cost 80 points.

 

Dude, it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's not true. You do not get 120pts of extra models, you regen up to 3 of the (inevitable) losses in a 400pt (possibly more) unit. You can have Mordrak without bodyguard (it's an idea I'm seriously considering, for a Libby welcome mat bringing in Dreadknights/Terminators), but Ghost Knights only exist if you spend 400pts.

 

Yes. But unlike a GKGM.

 

A WS6 hammer with four attacks is only marginally better than two other WS4 dudes swinging with a hammer apiece. Also, I don't have to spend 400pts to bring a couple of hammer attacks in a unit, I get them (gasp!) for free.

I would never give an I5 hero an I1 weapon. It's dumb, because the squad can already sacrifice attacks for some hammertimes for free (hell, even the Ghost Knights can do it). Even then, I'm kinda loath to do so, because 'Might' usually lets me smack down armour fine, and losing those I6 attacks means less enemy dudes dead. It's the same logic people use with Assault Terminators; the lightning claws are the real show, the hammer dudes are the wound sinks and for breaking the legs of whatever survived the lightning claws.

 

If you're gonna spend 200 points on 5 Terminaotrs, you're gonna spend 200 points on 5 Terminators.

 

With or without Mordrak.

 

Of course there is a trade off between Ghost Knights and regular GKT. But you still pay no premium.

 

(Edit: To clarify, it's not a premium as you don't Take Mordrak becuase you want 5 Ghost Knights. You take 5 Ghost Knights becuase you have Mordrak.)

 

Yeah, but here is where things get tricky. See, I don't want 5 Terminators. I want 10. Why? Regular Terminators are just like the Tactical Terminators of generic Marines. They punish things without power weapons/AP2, but anything with a power weapon/AP2 is at least going to maul them before succumbing. 10 Terminators is a much more daunting prospect, especially with Librarian support. Also, 10-man lets me bring two psycannons, because just one is not enough dakka really.

With Ghost Knights, Mordrak is a requirement. With a GM, I can add or drop him, regardless of my decision to bulk out my Terminators to full strength.

 

Utterly incorrect.

 

The only time they had a point break (in the leaked Dex) they also had access to Ranged Special Weapons and all the upgrades normal Terminators had.

 

The *only* reason for the cost break, is as I said, you could lose them all to an unlucky roll or Mordrak getting sniped.

 

They never had a cost break becuase there were worse then Normal GKT, they just as good as GKt, with an added free USR (and cheaper Psybolts).

 

I agree, the cost break was meant to make up for the 200pt character they have to tag along with them (who, as you point out, can cause the loss of the whole unit with unlucky save rolls). 375pts for a unit with a psycannon (adding the points for a cheap psycannon Inquisitor, which whilst annoying is still in the price range of the 450-475 you pay for the Terminator blob with dual psycannon and possibly Bro Banner) access landing Turn 1 at least qualifies as competitive. Landing storm bolters only? Not really. Psy-bolts is really neither here nor there.

 

Becuase you're not always taking a Libby with a TH?

 

The GK army hasn't *really* been designed as a DS force that works in conjunction with THs. Ward tried, with stacking Psychic Communions and Servo Skulls. But the GK as a whole fall short of this.

 

You could get the same effect with two GKGM/Inquisitors (for stacking PC) in Storm Ravens (for the TH), or attached to Incerator totting Purgation Squads.

 

Mordrak isn't there to supply an advanced TH via an attached Libby.

 

Entire army functions at mid-field, exceptions are Vindicare, Dreads and Razorbacks (Landraiders are still too expensive to field)

TDA characters with close-combat/mid-field buffs, Orbital Relay has high price and can't move

Paladins Deepstrike

All Troops Deepstrike

Interceptors Deepstrike

Stormravens carry Dreads and Purifiers along for Deepstrike (Purgators suck)

Dreadknights Deepstrike

 

I'd strongly disagree man. Ward went to a lot of effort to make most of the army Deepstrike by default, and gave us the option to bring in the few that don't in Stormravens. 'Communion' on the only other worthwhile heroes besides Libby, and servo-skulls on all Knight characters, seems to suggest he wants us to at least try the army build. Shadow Skies on Stormravens is the biggest hint though.

 

I'm not a fan of all-Deepstrike forces (I'm not an aggressive player, I like to shoot more than hack things up), but you'd have to be blind to not see the obvious push towards it in the codex. Don't you remember all the threads back with the old dex, bemoaning the lack of Deepstrike on Troops and Deepstrike support mechanisms like drop pods? How Knights were the epitome of a teleport attack force, but the rules didn't come close to representing it? GW listened, radically altered the army to fit this ideal, and even brought in Purifiers to (drum roll) satisfy the purists (puns are fun) who still wanted to footslog/pretend Water Warrior worked.

 

I'm not saying Libby with teleport homer is the only way to use Mordrak, but it's probably the best use of him. All other Reserves start showing up Turn 2, and the teleport homer rules specify the carrier must have already been on the table in the previous turn for it to work. As a welcome mat, you could do worse (and IIRC, in our old codex, we used to do the same thing with Troop squads to bring in Terminator support accurately). Provided what you're bringing on is actually threatening and effective (Pallies/Terminator blob, Dreadknights), I could see it working. Might actually give it a go in a 2k game, people have gotten used to my 'walk to the middle and shoot stuff' approach.

 

I have played a few games with Mordrak and found him to be an excellent disruption unit.

 

I usually take him with 5 knights and drop them into terrain behind enemy lines.

 

Against wolves/blood angels they show up right behind the obligatory missile spam squads. Against guard they end up behind or to the side of any heavy artillery. Executioners are still a problem but at least you can run and spread out a bit...

 

Basically mordrak helps me to make up for lack of long range fire. Of course, I only run 1 rifleman dread... I am not a fan of spam - so my fault there!

 

Throw him against static back field units - your opponent pretty much is forced to deal with them.

 

Blood Angels fielding Devastators? ;) I guess they're not overly pricey...but still, poor form on his part.

 

On the point of disruption, do your opponents just let you place him in good positions? I just find it weird they wouldn't even try to counter it with bubble wrap, positioning etc. Maybe they never played Daemons/Deathwing/Drop pod armies when they were around.

Especially odd that the Guard player isn't wrapping his tanks in layers, because thats kinda their default tactic to stopping conventional assaults/fast melta units. Have they ever played Biker armies?

 

Mordrak is sorta a poor investment in this regard, getting rid of enemy fire support doesn't really make up for a lack on your part. Sure, you ate his Long Fangs, but you still can't knock out his units or at least shake them for a few turns (once in range, psycannons do their thing admirably, but it's getting there that hurts).

 

I use Mordrak all the time.

 

Have'nt lost a game with him yet.

 

He's not a deathstar ultimate win unit with his ghost knights but with proper placement and not throwing him at targets thats gonna wreck his day your golden!!! I've found he works best useing him against soft units and light vehicles then let the rest of your army deal with the contents. He requires alot of synergy with the rest of your army to work, and if you get it right your army will be a force to be reckoned with.

 

Just my experieces so far. Taking him to Throne of skulls in October so getting plenty of playtesting in before hand.

 

No one is expecting him to be a Deathstar (although as I've said before, alternatives like Paladins or Terminator blob for similar points are actually pretty good in that role).

 

What opponents do you typically face btw? I find my storm bolter decidedly lacklustre most of the time, everyone either mechs, sits out of range with heavy weapons etc amongst my local players. Do you ever use him for teleport homer placement? What kinda support do you give him (Dreadknights, Interceptors) ?

[bl00d bath76]

Okay just got back from holiday so just done a lot of reading...

 

Okay i see Darius doesn't like the unit... You have your own reasons for this but you have not played with him. Mathhammer doesn't work for a unit which is used in this way. I see many people who have tried him out and he has worked well for them... I wont try and respond to everything you said because i feel i may die of old age by the time im finished ;)

 

Overall Mordrak i think is worth it for the points at 1,500 + point levels. However this entirely depends on where you place him. The best way to use him is to disturb scoring troop choices on objective or take out those devastator squads. He also provides a lot of benefits for the rest of the army if you take a librarian for example...

 

Darius i recomend you trying him out so you can better understand his benefits because i feel no matter how much of a discusion we have on here you are not changing your viewpoint because you think you are right and i think you are wrong. Playing a few games mgiht help you appreciate his benefits :(

[Gentlemanloser]

Dude, it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's not true. You do not get 120pts of extra models, you regen up to 3 of the (inevitable) losses in a 400pt (possibly more) unit.

 

Mordrak and 5 Ghost Knights. First three unsaved wounds taken on Mordrak. You now have Mordrak and 8 Ghost Knights. For the price of 5. 3 free extra bodies.

 

The challenge was accepted.

 

It wasn't a challenge...

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I am all for long posts and in depth conversation. I'd actually like more of that around here. However, if you write a long post which mostly repeats what you already have said, in the very same thread, you are just wasting your own time and everyone else's time. Something to think about.

[The Mystic]

I use Mordrak all the time.

 

Have'nt lost a game with him yet.

 

He's not a deathstar ultimate win unit with his ghost knights but with proper placement and not throwing him at targets thats gonna wreck his day your golden!!! I've found he works best useing him against soft units and light vehicles then let the rest of your army deal with the contents. He requires alot of synergy with the rest of your army to work, and if you get it right your army will be a force to be reckoned with.

 

Just my experieces so far. Taking him to Throne of skulls in October so getting plenty of playtesting in before hand.

 

No one is expecting him to be a Deathstar (although as I've said before, alternatives like Paladins or Terminator blob for similar points are actually pretty good in that role).

 

What opponents do you typically face btw? I find my storm bolter decidedly lacklustre most of the time, everyone either mechs, sits out of range with heavy weapons etc amongst my local players. Do you ever use him for teleport homer placement? What kinda support do you give him (Dreadknights, Interceptors) ?

 

Armies wise, Eldar, SW, SM, BA, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Orks, Chaos SM, IG, and GK's mainly at the moment. Players wise, regular gamers upto tournament level. As I work for GW as a store manager I never use my armies against beginners as I like to keep it fun when we play but other than that I get a wide variety of opponents.

[BrotherWasted]

Mordrak and 5 Ghost Knights. First three unsaved wounds taken on Mordrak. You now have Mordrak and 8 Ghost Knights. For the price of 5. 3 free extra bodies.

 

Which is simply just not going to happen in most games because this would require you to fail saves on a 2+/4++.

 

Mordrak is in Terminator Armor and has an Iron Halo, he will not be failing a flood of saving rolls anywhere near as fast as you make it out.

 

THEN you still need to make all those successful rolls to spawn your extra Ghost Knights. You already have a 1/6 chance per wound roll of even unlocking the possibility of spawning a Ghost Knight. That's bad enough as it is.

[Gentlemanloser]

True.

 

Have I not already said this is a situation where lady luck favours you?

 

As for the wounds, it's not that uncommon in todays MSU lists. Single HB Razor firing. 3 shots, causes a wound. stick it on Mordrak. You save, awesome. You fail, you get a chance for a free temrinator.

 

I did say above that on average, Mordrak will spaw 1.5 (well really 2) free terminators a game.

 

But on a lucky game, he'll spawn you 3.

 

The point about having the 5 other Ghost Knights still alive was *only* to highlight that getting all three is like having a unit of 8 when you paid for 5.

 

Three free bodies worth 120 points, that *only* Mordrak can give you. And that's rolled into his personal cost.