Age of Darkness - Savage Weapons

[Arioch]

Damn me for not being able to resist spoilers!

 

 

First of all: Thanks ADB for finally cleaning the name of our primarch. We are finally free of having him named traitor and heretic. There are still many questions unanswered of course, but at least we can finally put this discussion to rest: Thank you! Im still very exited to get this book when it comes out, the primarch fight should also make it worthwhile. Its not so important to me who came on top of that fight. The Lion resisted the lure of chaos and fought without fear. I think many people underestimate several of the chaos primarchs, because they have not recieved well written fluff about how they killed that Avatar (well, Fulgrim aside). They should recieve more credit, and its good to see them recieve justice.

 

[Master Ciaphas]

Hail fraters

 

I am just aching to read the story - and will buy the anthology solely on account of this. In my humble opinion, Mr. Aaron Dempski-Bowden is one of the foremost writers on the Black Library team...along with Mr. Dan Abnett.

 

It does however sadden me greatly that Mr. Gav Thorpe will be writing the Dark Angel books. While ADB might consider the hands of Thorpe to be "safe and familiar" hands, I do not. "Angels of Darkness" was - at best - a dubious "meh" experience. The novel "Call of the Lion" was interesting, and better than "Angels of Darkness".

 

Finally, there was the "Purging of Kadillus"...and I am not sure that I liked that one. The Naaman chapters were great, whilst the rest were incredibly bland, devoid of character and feeling. Initially, I liked it, but with the benfit of hindsight and in retrospect, I consider the book to be a disservice to the Chapter. I wonder why Mr. Thorpe dislikes the Chapter so much.

 

Let him write about the Eldar (Path of the Warrior - great read!), let him write about renegades (from the Space Marine anthology - innovative, exciting and great short story) - but by The Emperor, keep him away from the 1st Legion, and instead let ADB do them. (I actually also liked the Mike Lee book, "Fallen Angels", even if he was constricted by the first book, "Descent of Angels").

 

Kind regards,

Master Ciaphas

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

While I agree with you on most of that, I did think that the Horus Heresy novels were moderately good. Also, as much as we would like him to, A D-B can't do everything, unless he reveals as of yet unknown superhuman writing skills.

 

EDIT: Ignore the first sentence. I forgot he didn't write those. :D

[EPK]

Okay, just about done with this - good little read.

I quite like the fact that a mere Marine had the chance to "brake in" a Primarch

.

 

I do have questions regarding organization though. I know things don't always fit nicely and sometimes more than one word can be used for the same thing (not really any spoilers per say, just talking titles from this point on)...

 

Alajos is the Captain of the Ninth Order. And Corswain is Paladin of the Ninth Order - a title I understand as the more or less the a Company Champion of sorts. I like this new title.

 

The context clues point to "order" as simply another term for company, yet we know that the Legion also had Chapter divisions....

 

Belath is noted as being the Chapter Commander and a member of The Order of the Raven's Wing in Call of the Lion - not explicitly the commander of that order, just a member. This makes things a tad confusing, is order a term for chapter instead? Or is the Raven's Wing some separate organization that just happens to have "order" in it's title as a throwback? I can buy the latter explanation.

 

If that's the case, could the Legion breakdown be that a certain amount of Orders are commanded by a Chapter Commander (forming a chapter). In this case Belath and Astelan outrank Alajos. This seems like a likely breakdown. The Lion would take a contingent of Orders to command himself than break the rest out among his Chapter Commanders.

 

The tricky part is that Belath and his Order. I'm also sure convolution is part of it as Legions are massive and spread throughout the stars.

 

I'm also curious why it seems authors tend to forgo using the term "master" (Chapter Master, Company/Order Master), is this a mechanism to show that there is some difference both in terminology and organization between the DA of 31k as compared to their brethren of 40k? As if "master" was a term that developed over time with the loss of their true master.

 

Sorry A D-B, I'm anal about things like this. Hopefully you will drop in and illuminate me at your thought process here.

 

-----------

 

On a side note, it's a shame we probably will never get to use the title "Paladin" for our own company champions as GKs have already got it now.

[Candleshoes]

I think the "title/name discrepancy" is simpler than that.

 

The HH series gives the chance for chapters/legions to have real life breathed into them, to have authors dig deep and use creativity and their own vision to their fullest extent, to flesh them out in a unique way, not only in theme, but organization. One problem is that when it came to the HH DA's, DoA and to some extent FA (due to being tied to DoA in characters and story), the authors chose to follow the norm and use pre-existing structures, rather than relish the opportunity to make them fit their background, especially in names and tradition. We see this in the previous 30k and 40k fiction or Mr. Thorpe's work, (Company, Chapter, Master and so on).

 

Savage weapons decided to step out of those constrictions and I applaud the author for it. To make a choice and give some real knightly character to the way former men of the Order evolved into Astartes. Orders instead of Companies, Paladins instead of Company Champions, the etiquette regarding obedience and fealty, the way they hold themselves even in the face of their enemies, the way they even think and speak. If you think about it, it was a real risk, since no other authors portray the material in this light, but I personally embrace this line of thinking. They should be unique and they should be molded from the same clay of their histories on Caliban (why would they have dropped their naming and hierarchical traditions in lieu of the Codex, rather than fitting it into place?).

 

Yes it creates "inconsistencies" with how organization is shown, but honestly, I won't lose sleep over it, and again, prefer the new line of thinking. Here's to hoping the new line of thinking sticks.

[Gaz Taylor]

Either way, I think we're probably safe from me going near the Dark Angels again - as far as I know, Gav is doing that Lion novella next year, so the Legion will be back in familiar and comfortable hands.

 

This really saddens me. I picked up Age of Darkness yesterday after a day out with my wife to Stratford upon Avon and I decided to treat myself. The original plan was to wait until my holiday in June to read this but I couldn't wait as I was so excited about finding out how the Dark Angels and Night Lords squared up to each other and went straight to Savage Weapons] and I enjoyed it loads. It felt very much like a teaser for a series of books about this part of the Heresy. I really enjoyed the story and I plead with you not to give up upon the first legion, just because some fans didn't like how the primarch fight panned out. I thought it was brilliant and I loved

how the Lion was all sad and wot not for how he did the first blow (as it was dishonorable for a knight), and how it was brilliant how the fight was like he was fighting one of the chaos infested beasts upon Caliban. I thought it was great how the fight panned out and I thought it was great how Corswain rushed to rescue his Primarch as a Knight would.

 

 

It takes a brave Author to wander onto the Internet and interact with fans, especially ones as rabid as us 40K (or 30K) ones, as we all have varying different views about how we want 'our' characters to act. I think you need to ignore a lot of what people have said about the Primarch scrap as you will always have people wanting their favourite Primarch to win the fight without a scratch or then win the fight after discovering something profound or managing to power up to Super Saiyan 50. I think it shows a good author to go with his gut instinct and paint the few brush strokes for the bigger picture, rather than caving into what the fans think that they want.

 

PS - You are my Favourite BL author. Please keep up the good work :lol:

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

I would also like to give props to AD-B for being able to portray the marines and primarchs as still sharing some common ground, even if only while bantering. The interactions of the two forces was so much deeper than the shallow "RARGH! HERETIC" and "DEATH TO THE CORPSE GOd" that some authors can fall prey to. As this is still during the Horus Heresy and before 10,000 years of hate, I think AD-B did an excellent job at conveying that.

 

Also, thank you, thank you, thank you for the discussion of how the Lion will be seen in the future. It was perfec, and drove in the tragedy of what happens at Caliban just a little bit more.

[Julius Firefocht]

As a Blood Angel fan, I have always looked upon my Dark Angel brethren with a measure of suspicion, especially after I read Gav Thorpe's Angel of Darkness. Now, all these doubts are swept away, as the Lion is decisively shown to be a true and loyal son of the Emperor. Thank you, A D-B, for clearing up this little "misunderstanding".

 

I can only hope that Sanguinius would be portrayed as brilliantly when the time comes for the Blood Angels to be featured.

[Ethrion]

I loved this short story, especially the clarification of the Lion's loyalties. But more than that I really liked the way he wrote it: exactly as if Curze was talking about us! heheh :D awesome

[Son of Rawl]

Slowly working my way towards this one, liking the fact that Guilliman has taken the role the Lion used to have now

[FerociousBeast]

Remarkably, I chose to save spilling my thoughts on this story until after I had read it... :cuss

 

Which I have now done!

 

I'm a little disappointed by the story. It's nice to have definite confirmation that the Lion was loyal, but really, we already had that in Fallen Angels. I guess we now know that two years into the Heresy, the Lion still hadn't changed his mind, but that's not such a big revelation to me. After Fallen Angels, there was no longer any doubt as to where the Lion's loyalties lay. So as for the confirmation of the Lion's loyalty, while nice, I was looking for a bit more.

 

What I have always wanted from the Horus Heresy is a better explanation of what the Dark Angels were doing during the Heresy, and why they weren't players in the larger, more important conflicts. ADB gives us this in this story, and I have to say I find it underwhelming. We are told that the Dark Angels had already tried to reach Terra, but failed--presumably this is the tale of their voyage with the Space Wolves? And so, being unable to make it to the important fight, decided or were ordered to battle in this sub-sector on the edge of the galaxy with the Night Lords.

 

We knew they fought with the Night Lords during the Heresy, but we didn't know that the fight was to secure a bunch of forge worlds. Here's a logical error, though: supposedly this subsector is massively important to the larger galactic war effort, but if the Dark Angels can't get out of the neighborhood, how could any war materiel? And even if somehow this fight will free up these forge worlds, we're still only talking about a sub-sector. There are thousands of forge worlds throughout the galaxy.

 

So we know now what the Dark Angels were doing during the Horus Heresy: not much.

 

They have always been on the periphery of the Horus Heresy, and I imagine this has presented the writers and editors at Black Library no end of difficulty in deciding how they will try to make them important for the legions of loyal Dark Angel fans. I'm sympathetic to ADB, Mitchel Scanlon, Mike Lee, and Gav Thorpe's plight, and appreciate that they've tried, but I'm no less disappointed that they've been at best only modestly successful.

 

I'm also disappointed that the Lion got beaten up by the Night Haunter (and yes, he did--there was no ebb and flow about the end of that fight), and am tempted to point out the number of Night Lord connections ADB has, but that would be petty of me. Someone has to win those Primarch-on-Primarch slapfights. And if the Lion had won, there'd be Night Lord fans disappointed. So, it is what it is. ;) happens ;)

[A D-B]

What I have always wanted from the Horus Heresy is a better explanation of what the Dark Angels were doing during the Heresy, and why they weren't players in the larger, more important conflicts. ADB gives us this in this story, and I have to say I find it underwhelming.

 

You were never going to get all that in an anthology. It's a short story about three days in a 7 year war. There's a great deal more they were doing after this.

 

 

So we know now what the Dark Angels were doing during the Horus Heresy: not much.

 

That's always been the lore. This is just the prologue to a war to come. The characters state it implicitly. How can it be them doing nothing when they're set to cleanse a massive swathe of the Imperium from traitors, and confront Guilliman for what looks like setting up a second Imperium? That's... I mean... That's... hardly "not much".

 

 

I'm also disappointed that the Lion got beaten up by the Night Haunter (and yes, he did--there was no ebb and flow about the end of that fight),

 

Don't see it that way, myself. They both got gacked hard, and at the end it's mentioned they're equally wounded. The Lion was on the losing side when the fight was interfered with, yep. If it had been interrupted earlier, Konrad would have been on the losing side. I think it's fair to infer the ebb and flow would have kept happening. They're primarchs. Sure, Curze was a cheaty chap, but everyone gets second winds.

 

 

and am tempted to point out the number of Night Lord connections ADB has, but that would be petty of me.

 

Insulting, too. Tsk, dude, tsk.

 

"This really highlights one of the dangers of 40K. You write something with absolute neutrality; with no one winning; with both sides inflicting equal damage to one another; even with one side getting the advantage over a faction you usually write about, and still it's easy to see it as "This guy makes the Night Lords awesome all the time." Um. Like... when I make them cowards? When I make the Lion out to be the epitome of knightly valour and loyalty, while Curze is a suffering wretch who gets impaled by two sneak attacks? They got a cameo in The First Heretic, when Curze saves (and hates) the character I really like, and Sevatar is ordered to stop Corax, which he immediately fails to do. As cameos go, that's not exactly exalting them.

 

It's a conclusion a lot of fans leap to about authors, but has almost no basis in reality for many writers."

 

The fact I write about the Night Lords in a series means absolutely nothing in this story. If I was that unprofessional, they'd win everything easily, and I'd have done a Night Lords HH novel by now where they were shown as the bestest Legion ever.

 

It also assumes the Night Lords are my favourite or preferred faction, and further assumes that even matters in a professional writing capacity. Big, big (and slightly insulting) assumptions.

[greatcrusade08]

It also assumes the Night Lords are my favourite or preferred faction, and further assumes that even matters in a professional writing capacity. Big, big (and slightly insulting) assumptions.

 

IIRC its black legion you play isnt it?

 

people make those assumptions all the time, like how Matt Ward plays ultramarines becuase he went a little nuts with the ultras statements.. he actually plays sallies for those interested.

[Pavement Artist]

I'm also disappointed that the Lion got beaten up by the Night Haunter (and yes, he did--there was no ebb and flow about the end of that fight),

 

Hold on, wasn't that fight divided into two parts? From where i was reading it, it seemed to me that there was a more formal duel where the Lion slaps curze around and then because he realises that he is getting slightly whipped, Haunter devolves the whole thing into a scrappy alley fight.

 

Not to put words in A-D-B's mouth but im sure the point in the fight was to show the Primarchs in their natural elements. Jonson is a paragon of Knightly virtue, he is a warrior without equal and comes from a planet with a strong martial tradition rooted in the orders of Caliban. This is why he dominates the fight when it's (well at least in his eyes) honorable combat, weapon on weapon. Kurze leaps on the Lion and then proceeds to choke him out because that is literally the only way he knows how to fight. He grew up in the arse end of no where on a planet filled with murderers and beater. The only reason he survived his infancy was by becoming as brutal as the society around him. He didn't beat the Lion at all. Jonson gut shot the guy then absolutely whipped him in a duel. Curze knew he was trouble, that's why he had to take things down to a brawling level because thats where HE will have the advantage. He know's there is no point even trying to beat Jonson in an honourable one on one because it just wouldn't end well.

 

It's what makes the myriad "Which Primarch would win" discussions a bit moot. It's all subjective. Are they attacking a fotress? Dorn's probably got it in the bag. Is it a sword on sword duel? Jonson's a knight, he's going to do well here. Hit and run attacks in the dark? You'd put your money on Kurze or Corax. They all have environs they thrive in. That's the point of their existence, they dont all occupy the same role.

 

The Dark Angels did lose a marine where as sevatar and sheng (missing hand aside) got of relatively fine, so i suppose that colours people's feelings about the fight. I thought the fight ended on a fairly even note though, both Primarchs are being dragged away by their legion, both equally bloodied.

 

The Dark Angels totally came out of that the legion with the bigger balls. A Dark angel left his sword in PRIMARCH PSYCHOTIC BATMAN'S SPINE. Im not a massive fan of the first legion, but even that moment had me going "Dammmmmn son".

[NightrawenII]

Jonson is a paragon of Knightly virtue, he is a warrior without equal and comes from a planet with a strong martial tradition rooted in the orders of Caliban. This is why he dominates the fight when it's (well at least in his eyes) honorable combat, weapon on weapon.

The first part: Really?!? Do you remember the name of guy, who stabbed the other guy, while this other guy was busy laughing?

 

I agree with the picture of Lion, as medieval warlord, but is fallacious to think that nobility = knights. - It is quite obvious to anyone, who is familiar with medieval society. Also, the term 'knight' could be interpreted in several different ways, not only "chivalric and noble".

[The Shadow Guard]

Jonson is a paragon of Knightly virtue, he is a warrior without equal and comes from a planet with a strong martial tradition rooted in the orders of Caliban. This is why he dominates the fight when it's (well at least in his eyes) honorable combat, weapon on weapon.

The first part: Really?!? Do you remember the name of guy, who stabbed the other guy, while this other guy was busy laughing?

 

Uhh.. do you remember this guys who couldn't kill his target because the other guy was a lot cleverer at tactics and then punched the other guy without warning leading to the fight between the guys? Besdides the othe guy didn't stab him, just hit him hard and put his lights out... :confused: B)

 

SG

[Pavement Artist]

Jonson is a paragon of Knightly virtue, he is a warrior without equal and comes from a planet with a strong martial tradition rooted in the orders of Caliban. This is why he dominates the fight when it's (well at least in his eyes) honorable combat, weapon on weapon.

The first part: Really?!? Do you remember the name of guy, who stabbed the other guy, while this other guy was busy laughing?

 

I agree with the picture of Lion, as medieval warlord, but is fallacious to think that nobility = knights. - It is quite obvious to anyone, who is familiar with medieval society. Also, the term 'knight' could be interpreted in several different ways, not only "chivalric and noble".

 

I still maintain that he is representative of the martial honour engrained within the knightly orders of Caliban. In as much as that he is a superlative warrior and as a Primarch, comes with that added "Wow" factor. Theyre easy people to make figure heads. The orders shaped the way he developed as a person in the same way that his time in the forests did. There's a duality within him. Outwardly, there is this resplendant warrior king where as at the core of him, there is still this quite bestial nature. In many ways, for the formulative years of his life, Jonson was as feral as Curze and i don't think thats a part of himself that can ever go away. That's the part of him that surfaces when he slams his sword into Curze's gut. The knight in him, most likely hates himself for that blow just as much as the part of him that is still that lost boy in the forests of Caliban probably loved it.

[EPK]

The Dark Angels totally came out of that the legion with the bigger balls. A Dark angel left his sword in PRIMARCH PSYCHOTIC BATMAN'S SPINE. Im not a massive fan of the first legion, but even that moment had me going "Dammmmmn son".

 

I have to agree here. The Lion and Curze may have fought back and forth for some time, evenly matched, but it was a mere Space Marine - albeit one of the finest - that ran a sword through a Primarch's back. How many other primarch's would ever be wounded by another mere marine?

 

 

Jonson is a paragon of Knightly virtue, he is a warrior without equal and comes from a planet with a strong martial tradition rooted in the orders of Caliban. This is why he dominates the fight when it's (well at least in his eyes) honorable combat, weapon on weapon.

The first part: Really?!? Do you remember the name of guy, who stabbed the other guy, while this other guy was busy laughing?

 

I agree with the picture of Lion, as medieval warlord, but is fallacious to think that nobility = knights. - It is quite obvious to anyone, who is familiar with medieval society. Also, the term 'knight' could be interpreted in several different ways, not only "chivalric and noble".

 

 

Come on now, the Lion even apologized before he stuck Curze - someone with less honor might apologize after or not at all. The Lion gave him the briefest moment to stop his banter and actually come on guard.

 

The Russ-Lion squabble was a brotherly fight and in the end, the Lion being the social butterfly he is, could not understand Russ's laughter and smacked him one, as brothers do.

[Aegnor]

Loved the story - would love for ADB to write a novel going into further detail about the long war between the DA and the Night Lords.

 

I loved the Lion in this story - first time I've seen him as a character I could like.

He was still quite cold, not at all outgoing, but wasn't some kind of inhuman robot - seeing him expressing some humour and affection ("Little Brother") with his comrades was great. He was the proud, resolute, knight he should be. But he wasn't a Mary Sue - he does still struggle to connect with his sons in many ways. He can't set aside his desire to conquer and win for his own glory. He can't credit anyone else, even his brother Guilliman, with non-selfish motives. My take on his comment at the end re: Guilliman is that exactly that - imaging the choice between the idea that Guilliman is honestly trying to serve the Emperor's wishes (as G understands them), or the idea that Guilliman is trying to position himself as the "heir to the Emperor" for his own reasons, he leaps without hesitation at the second choice.

 

I should say, that's not as much of an attack on the Lion as it sounds, nor a slight against him compared to Guilliman, even if it reads like it, looking back on it. They are different characters with different flaws, and the Lion's suspicious mind and ambition is a key part of his character, and I thought it was a really cool way of showing that. Guilliman's approach also had it's own flaws, and while I think the first option I suggested is what was happening, I don't think you can deny that there were some definite practical problems - be they short term or long term - with how Guilliman went about things.

 

On the issue of the fight with Curze, I definitely saw it as a draw, albeit it wasn't looking great for the Lion when Corswain intervened. But equally, it could have easily ended in his favour several times earlier in the fight when he was dominating Curze. Two very different, but equally exceptional warriors. Not to mention that ADB was working in some constraints in terms of the idea that their conflict wasn't meant to end at that meeting, that he didn't want to show one side as clearly and entirely superior to the other, AND that we knew as readers that both primarches definitely survived the fight.

 

[EPK]

Not to mention that ADB was working in some constraints in terms of the idea that their conflict wasn't meant to end at that meeting, that he didn't want to show one side as clearly and entirely superior to the other, AND that we knew as readers that both primarches definitely survived the fight.

 

That's a very important point, It must sometimes be a bother for the writers when the overall ending of this Heresy has already been written for the most part. Has a DA fan, had I written it, I would have loved for that first blow to have ended it, but we all know that Curze's death comes in another form.

[A D-B]

Loved the story - would love for ADB to write a novel going into further detail about the long war between the DA and the Night Lords.

 

I loved the Lion in this story - first time I've seen him as a character I could like.

He was still quite cold, not at all outgoing, but wasn't some kind of inhuman robot - seeing him expressing some humour and affection ("Little Brother") with his comrades was great. He was the proud, resolute, knight he should be. But he wasn't a Mary Sue - he does still struggle to connect with his sons in many ways. He can't set aside his desire to conquer and win for his own glory. He can't credit anyone else, even his brother Guilliman, with non-selfish motives. My take on his comment at the end re: Guilliman is that exactly that - imaging the choice between the idea that Guilliman is honestly trying to serve the Emperor's wishes (as G understands them), or the idea that Guilliman is trying to position himself as the "heir to the Emperor" for his own reasons, he leaps without hesitation at the second choice.

 

I should say, that's not as much of an attack on the Lion as it sounds, nor a slight against him compared to Guilliman, even if it reads like it, looking back on it. They are different characters with different flaws, and the Lion's suspicious mind and ambition is a key part of his character, and I thought it was a really cool way of showing that. Guilliman's approach also had it's own flaws, and while I think the first option I suggested is what was happening, I don't think you can deny that there were some definite practical problems - be they short term or long term - with how Guilliman went about things.

 

On the issue of the fight with Curze, I definitely saw it as a draw, albeit it wasn't looking great for the Lion when Corswain intervened. But equally, it could have easily ended in his favour several times earlier in the fight when he was dominating Curze. Two very different, but equally exceptional warriors. Not to mention that ADB was working in some constraints in terms of the idea that their conflict wasn't meant to end at that meeting, that he didn't want to show one side as clearly and entirely superior to the other, AND that we knew as readers that both primarches definitely survived the fight.

 

While there've been plenty of people that "got it" in this thread and elsewhere (EPK and Witch Hunter Kraine spring to mind, even in the last day), I just wanted to say thanks for that, Aegnor. It's rare that someone says their perception of a story exactly matches what you tried to write, and what was in your head as you write it.

 

When it does happen, it's a very, very, very rewarding moment, so thanks for letting it happen just then.

[Plastic Rat]

I've been away from 40k for a good solid few months and I find this thread?! Dude... All I got from it is that freakin' A D-B wrote a freakin' Dark Angels book! The rest of the thread kinda went by in a blur of celebratory alcoholism and random fist pumping.

 

*heads off to Black Library website drunkenly clutching credit card*

[Pavement Artist]

I've been away from 40k for a good solid few months and I find this thread?! Dude... All I got from it is that freakin' A D-B wrote a freakin' Dark Angels book! The rest of the thread kinda went by in a blur of celebratory alcoholism and random fist pumping.

 

*heads off to Black Library website drunkenly clutching credit card*

 

Just as a word of warning, it's not a full book. It's a short story in the new Horus Heresy anthology "Age of Darkness". It's still an awesome piece and the rest of the collection was very enjoyable so i'd recommend the purchase.

 

Of course you might already know this and i now look like an idiot. If so....carry on.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Just read SW last night,

 

A D-B you don't need to explain or justify anything, it's all there in black and white. IMO a fantastic read, great character development in the space of a short story. not just 'bolter porn'.

 

"LOYALTY IS IT'S OWN REWARD."

 

Sums up what us die hards have known since RT days. Very grimdark, for us DA fans the 'good' guys aren't meant to be total WIN like the UM fraters seem to like.

 

Again, thanks for a great read and thanks for getting on this forum and gracing us with your comments.

 

Sorry about the 'suck up'.

 

L

[Candleshoes]

"LOYALTY IS IT'S OWN REWARD."

 

;)