Blood angels doubts

[The Unknown Father]

Basically I don´t know which habilities can be used inside a vehicle or not. Specially I have the following.

 

-Blood chalice

 

-Sanguinus shield (the librarian power)

 

-Chapter banner

 

Please tell me also where I can find the explanation to show it to the other players

 

Thanks!

[JamesI]

All of them can be used from inside a vehicle.

 

In the transport rules it states that any model with an area of affect ability is measured from the vehicles hull.

[Grey Mage]

Yep, read the transport rules again, that should clear it up.

[DevianID]

Sorry for the delay in following up on this... JamesI you said

In the transport rules it states that any model with an area of affect ability is measured from the vehicles hull.

 

While you are close, the real rule reads differently. 'If you need to measure range...'

 

Do the rules for the Blood Chalice need you to measure range to or from an embarked unit?

 

GW has ruled that abilities that hit everything within x inches do not hit units embarked, as the embarking rules tell you to 'Remove the squad from the table.' Every single instance of the many things you can do in a vehicle is detailed in the rules. Examples include contesting, shooting from firepoints, using some (but not all) psychic powers. If the rules for the ability do not mention embarked units (like chaos Icons do) then use GW's precedent on the matter and do not use such abilities if you want to play strictly by the rules.

 

That said, most people (myself included) just use any and every ability from a vehicle without concern and/or permission. Makes vehicles much more powerful.

[ShinyRhino]

Sorry for the delay in following up on this... JamesI you said

In the transport rules it states that any model with an area of affect ability is measured from the vehicles hull.

 

While you are close, the real rule reads differently. 'If you need to measure range...'

 

Do the rules for the Blood Chalice need you to measure range to or from an embarked unit?

 

GW has ruled that abilities that hit everything within x inches do not hit units embarked, as the embarking rules tell you to 'Remove the squad from the table.' Every single instance of the many things you can do in a vehicle is detailed in the rules. Examples include contesting, shooting from firepoints, using some (but not all) psychic powers. If the rules for the ability do not mention embarked units (like chaos Icons do) then use GW's precedent on the matter and do not use such abilities if you want to play strictly by the rules.

 

That said, most people (myself included) just use any and every ability from a vehicle without concern and/or permission. Makes vehicles much more powerful.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Blood Chalice an area effect? All units within 6" of the Chalice gain Feel No Pain. So, the "bubble" of FnP is granted 6" from the hull of the transport inwhich the Priest is embarked.

[Seahawk]

Yes, the chalice is a 6" bubble that, when embarked, would be measured from the vehicle's hull.

[Grey Mage]

As for your question, Devian- yes, you need to measure from somewhere to determine the effect- in this case, 6" out from the model is the effects of the chalice. Since models dont cease to exist, or even to interact with the board just because theyre in a transport- they can still fire out of fireports, be damaged, etc- theres no reason for us to assume the effect goes away.

[DevianID]

All units within 6" of the Chalice gain Feel No Pain. So, the "bubble" of FnP is granted 6" from the hull of the transport inwhich the Priest is embarked.

Howdy again... not trying to stir up trouble I swear! Perhaps my initial point was lost/confused, so I should probably elaborate.

 

Lets use Pedro Kantor's bubble as an example of one of the many, MANY bubble effects. Pedro says all units with 12 inches of pedro get +1 attack. There is no provision for when Pedro is embarked.

 

SO, we turn to the embarked vehicle section. The rules for embarking say we remove the embarked Pedro from the table. We now can not measure 12 inches to Pedro, Pedro is not on the table.

 

As we read further, we get to a section saying 'If we need to measure to or from an embarked unit, we can measure to the hull.'

 

So, we look back at Pedro's rule. When embarked, does Pedro's rule provide the need to measure? Or stated another way, is Pedro's ability one of the abilities that penetrate the vehicle wall barrier to work on embarked units, as well as while embarked? No, Pedro's rule has no provision for working when embarked, UNLIKE some psyker power, shooting attacks, or contesting allows you to do said things. Therefore, since no permission is given, this does not work when embarked, as per GW's precedent.

[dswanick]

All units within 6" of the Chalice gain Feel No Pain. So, the "bubble" of FnP is granted 6" from the hull of the transport inwhich the Priest is embarked.

Howdy again... not trying to stir up trouble I swear! Perhaps my initial point was lost/confused, so I should probably elaborate.

 

Lets use Pedro Kantor's bubble as an example of one of the many, MANY bubble effects. Pedro says all units with 12 inches of pedro get +1 attack. There is no provision for when Pedro is embarked.

 

SO, we turn to the embarked vehicle section. The rules for embarking say we remove the embarked Pedro from the table. We now can not measure 12 inches to Pedro, Pedro is not on the table.

 

As we read further, we get to a section saying 'If we need to measure to or from an embarked unit, we can measure to the hull.'

 

So, we look back at Pedro's rule. When embarked, does Pedro's rule provide the need to measure? Or stated another way, is Pedro's ability one of the abilities that penetrate the vehicle wall barrier to work on embarked units, as well as while embarked? No, Pedro's rule has no provision for working when embarked, UNLIKE some psyker power, shooting attacks, or contesting allows you to do said things. Therefore, since no permission is given, this does not work when embarked, as per GW's precedent.

But where do you come by the assumption that Kantor's effect doesn't work when he is embarked? I know of no FAQ or similar that states this.

[Alphz]

Hes going on the precedent. Many rules, such as chaos icons specifically state;

 

"If the icon is in a vehicle you measure the distance from the hull" (paraphrased as I can't be bothered grabbing the codex).

[Grey Mage]

And alot of older codices- and even a bit in the newer ones- paraphrased rules from the core books to try and avoid confusion. This later caused an entirely different bit of confusion when, for example, the parts of some transport sections mentioned that dedicated transports could only be used by the units they were purchased with.

 

As for the 5th edition core book and how it interacts with auras this is my take-

 

The transport section discusses the units being transported as if they were contained inside the vehicle itself. Repeatedly stating "carried" or "transported", it would seem the units are- like in real life- in all ways passengers of the vehicle. Only in the section of embarking does it discuss removing the models from the table, and even then it mentions that you can place a model on top for reference. It seems to me that the entire thing is done on the supposition that the units are in the vehicle then, without forcing us to try and place the models inside.

 

This is further reinforced by the rules for fireports, and by the FAQ stating that you cant just hop over a unit when you disembark.

 

As for the model on top of the transport- wich model is not discussed, nor is it mentioned that theres any change for that models rules. Would it really make sense to say that since pedro kantor is sitting on my landraider he can be shot at despite being embarked? Or that his aura works when hes hoodsurfing but not otherwise? How would he or the unit move as you cannot move through another models base?

 

So the idea that auras go away because the model is being transported causes more questions than answers and ends up breaking alot of the normal actions in the game as a side-effect. Added to that is that GW has shown their opinion on the matter through FAQs and Tournaments repeatedly (RAI I know, but there it is).

 

The only thing I can see against it is Doom of Malantais FAQ, wherein its aura of death is stopped by transports. I would hazard that this is because it is in most ways executed as an area of effect shooting attack, and thus was FAQ'd along the lines of a shooting attack.

[SeattleDV8]

The general trend is that units embarked cannot be affected directly from out side the trasport.

You can of course wreck or expode the vehicle which then has side affects for the passengers.

As the same time units embarked can still affect things outside (and inside their own) transports, i.e. shooting, psychic powers etc.

For example Shadow in the Warp ('Nid) does not affect passengers but those same passengers can use their psychic hoods.

The new Tau FAQ carried this a bit further ( I am impling a general effect from a special rule, with may not be backed up from GW)

"Q: If an ethereal (including Aunʼva) is killed do models

embarked in vehicles have to take a morale check? (p33)

A: No."

 

When an ethereal dies all Tau 'on the table' take a morale test , it seems that an embarked unit also are immune to morale tests.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The only thing I can see against it is Doom of Malantais FAQ, wherein its aura of death is stopped by transports. I would hazard that this is because it is in most ways executed as an area of effect shooting attack, and thus was FAQ'd along the lines of a shooting attack.

 

 

Actualy there is a stated reason in the main FAQ in reference to psychic powers not effecting units in a transport (unless the caster itself is also in the same transport). Because GW are lazy and didnt want to think about it. Of course the vast majority of the nid FAQ goes agaisnt established rules and precidence.

 

 

The RAW in the rulebook (pg 66) is that "If the player needs to mesure a range to or from the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the hull." To or from means by the rules outside effects the inside, and inside effects the outside (asuming line of sight is not needed). GW however cosistantly FAQs that outside does not effect inside. The problem here of course is any given FAQ only effects the specific rules in question wereas an errata could solve the thing universaly.

[SeattleDV8]

All too true.

I wish GW would treat their rules with the same quality their treat their models....sigh

[DevianID]

Yeah, there is a LOT of precedent that abilities do not work through the transport barrier.

 

Some examples have been mentioned, and the main rule was quoted.

The RAW in the rulebook (pg 66) is that "If the player needs to mesure a range to or from the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the hull." To or from means by the rules outside effects the inside, and inside effects the outside (asuming line of sight is not needed). GW however cosistantly FAQs that outside does not effect inside. The problem here of course is any given FAQ only effects the specific rules in question wereas an errata could solve the thing universaly.

 

The rule quoted above does not give permission to use abilities through the vehicle embarked barrier (for lack of a proper term). It simply is a measurement rule telling you how to measure if you need to.

 

This is just like the rule for how to measure between units. If you need to measure range to a unit, you measure to the the closest base in that unit.

 

The measurement rules do not allow you to measure any time you want, such as premeasuring your shooting attack in the movement phase. They also dont let you use your abilities whenever you want, despite having rules for how to measure those abilities.

 

Also,

For example Shadow in the Warp ('Nid) does not affect passengers but those same passengers can use their psychic hoods.

 

Psychic hoods can not be used while in a vehicle by the shadow in the warp precedent. NO ONE plays that way, myself included, BUT that is the RAW and precedent. The psychic hood is not on the table when embarked--fact. No permision is given to use the hood while embarked, so despite knowing how we would measure (from the vehicles hull) we still can not measure. No FAQ allows the hood to work while embarked. Lack of FAQ disallowing the Hood in a vehicle is not the same as having permission to use the hood.

 

Also, not that this matters all that much, but 4th edition, and presumably 3rd edition, specificly disallowed anything from working through the embarked vehicle barrier. GW has not reversed this rule explictily, and they still follow the old mind set based off the new FAQ for tau abilites and tyranid abilities, plus the wording of lots of abilities (KFF in orks, chaos icons in csm, giving orders in guard, ect)

[SeattleDV8]

Psychic hoods can not be used while in a vehicle by the shadow in the warp precedent. NO ONE plays that way, myself included, BUT that is the RAW and precedent. The psychic hood is not on the table when embarked--fact. No permision is given to use the hood while embarked, so despite knowing how we would measure (from the vehicles hull) we still can not measure. No FAQ allows the hood to work while embarked. Lack of FAQ disallowing the Hood in a vehicle is not the same as having permission to use the hood.

 

Also, not that this matters all that much, but 4th edition, and presumably 3rd edition, specificly disallowed anything from working through the embarked vehicle barrier. GW has not reversed this rule explictily, and they still follow the old mind set based off the new FAQ for tau abilites and tyranid abilities, plus the wording of lots of abilities (KFF in orks, chaos icons in csm, giving orders in guard, ect)

Sorry ,but you cannot prove that. NO ONE (grrrr) I know plays that a psychic hood cannot be used when embarked.

Not RAW and no precedent. The Hood is on the table, (FACT!!) ..heh, it is embarked ( the not on the table was a 4th Ed rule)

BRB pg. 66 " it is removed from the table and placed aside ,making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported"

The Unit is still on the table the models are 'placed aside'.

We are then told that any measuring to or from the unit is to the Vehicles hull.

All the permission a hood needs is that a psychic power is used (most hoods also have a range restriction) they don't need a FAQ.

Psychic powers can be used when embarked,as long as it is not a shooting power you don't even need a fire point.

Yes we do know where to measure from, the vehicles hull, saying we don't know where you measure from doesn't make sense.

Or are you telling me a SM hood could not be used because of range, but a DA hood is allowed because it has no range??

Seems a bit silly to me.

As to the 'old GW mind set' I don't see it, besides who cares what the past ed. allowed or disallowed we are playing 5th ed.

KFF can be used when embarked. Chaos Icons are allowed when embarked. Not 100% sure about the guard but aren't they allowed to issue orders from embarked officers as long a the unit is not embarked?

[Grey Mage]

Imperial Gaurd officers in vehicles may not issue orders, but IG squads in vehicles can receive them.

[Hellios]

Imperial Gaurd officers in vehicles may not issue orders, but IG squads in vehicles can receive them.

 

Isn't it the other way round? Eitherway I'm pretty sure Chimeras have the command vehicle rules that specifies what can or cannot be done out of them.

[Grey Mage]

4rth paragraph says an officer cannot issue orders if in a vehicle.... but rereading it, your right- I missed the part in the 5th sentence that says they cant be issued to a squad in a vehicle.

 

And then yes, the chimera has the command vehicle rule.

[dswanick]

Imperial Gaurd officers in vehicles may not issue orders, but IG squads in vehicles can receive them.

Imperial Guard Orders may not be issued by an Officer Embarked in a Transport(Codex: Imperial Guard Pg.29). Imperial Guard Orders may not be issued to a unit Embarked in a Transport(Codex: Imperial Guard Pg.29). The Chimera Armored Transport has the Mobile Command Vehicle rule which allows Embarked Officers to issue Orders(Codex: Imperial Guard Pg.39).

[Grey Mage]

Like I said, sorry, missed that in the 5th paragraph.

[dswanick]

Like I said, sorry, missed that in the 5th paragraph.

No problem, I must have started typing my response at the same time you posted yours. :P

 

The next question would be - did GW specify that Orders can't be issued into/out of transports because it isn't allowed, as some claim, or because it is allowed and they wanted to specifically disallow it? Seems to me GW wouldn't need to state that something that isn't allowed, isn't allowed. But that's just me.

[SeattleDV8]

Thanks, I wasn't sure about the guard question.

[DevianID]

BRB pg. 66 " it is removed from the table and placed aside ,making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported"

The Unit is still on the table the models are 'placed aside'.

Um Seattle, you are actually claiming that the unit the rules state are removed from the table the rules actually say are on the table? Sorry, removed from the table means removed from the table, nothing you state there puts them back on the table. So no, the Hood is not on the table, the rules tell us very specificly that the Hood is removed from the table when embarked.

did GW specify that Orders can't be issued into/out of transports because it isn't allowed, as some claim, or because it is allowed and they wanted to specifically disallow it? Seems to me GW wouldn't need to state that something that isn't allowed, isn't allowed. But that's just me.

That is the question, but at the same time, the FAQ disallowed the nid abilities to work through the transport barrier after the codex came out, meaning perhaps GW does need to state when something isnt allowed, because everyone has been playing transports wrong this whole time.

[SeattleDV8]

Did you miss the line that stated that the unit is being transported?

Or did you stop reading after the line they are 'removed from the table"

The removed and placed aside just means you don't have to try and force the models into the transport, we aren't playing Gorka Morka here.

Yes the models are removed but the unit is still there.

The unit is being transported and we have been given permission to measure to and from the unit by measuring to the transports hull.

4th ed. is gone, stop living in the past.

 

the FAQ's have shown that embarked units cannot be affected directly, the embarked unit can effect things from inside the transport, i.e. shooting, pyschic powers, icons ,etc.

The hood is being transported and works just fine, as long as the caster is within 24" of the hull (well, for most armies).

BRB FAQ

Q: Can a model use a psychic power that is not a Psychic

Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a transport vehicle? (p50)

A: Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is still

worked out from the vehicleʼs fire points (this will count as

one model shooting through that fire point if the power is

used in the Shooting phase).

If the psychic power does not require line of sight and has

a range or an area of effect that is normally measured

from the model using it, these are measured from the

vehicleʼs hull, as explained in the Embarking section on

page 66.

Look, that disproves your idea right there.

and again BRB FAQ

Q: Can Psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a

transport? (p50)

A: For simplicityʼs sake, the answer has to be a firm ʻNo,

unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transportedʼ

Hmmm if the psyker isn't 'on the table' how can he cast powers on embarked units?

and

Q: Must passengers fire at the same target that their

vehicle is firing at? (p66)

A: No, they are a separate unit (albeit they are temporarily

co-existing with the vehicle) and so can fire at a different

target.

 

Oh dear, they are 'on the table' again!