Blood angels doubts

[DevianID]

Again sorry about the lateness of the reply, I have spotty internet access at times.

 

Seatle, the unit being transported does not mean the unit is on the table. Being on the table is a specific game term with specific game effects.

 

Also, you say we have been given permission to measure to and from the unit. This is wrong. The rules read 'If you need to measure.' No permission is given to use abilities, instead we just have measurement rules if your special rule needs you to measure when embarked. If your special rule does not need you to measure to or from an embarked unit, then you can not do it.

 

the FAQ's have shown that embarked units cannot be affected directly, the embarked unit can effect things from inside the transport, i.e. shooting, pyschic powers, icons ,etc.

The rule that says embarked units can not be affected is the same rule that says they can not affect the outside. There is only one section of the rules detailing to or from embarked units, the measurement rules, and they work as a 2 way street.

 

Please note that everything you mentioned that the embarked unit can do to affect the outside world is SPECIFICLY allowed. Shooting? Specificly allowed from firepoints, regardless of needing LOS or not. Psychic powers? Some are allowed, depending on the power's description via FAQ. Icons? Codex rule says they work when embarked.

 

As for 'not being on the table and casting powers,' we can do this because the rules (again via FAQ) let us do this. Just like the rules let us use the vehicle when measuring to score with an embarked unit. We have specific allowances for embarked units to affect the outside world.

 

If you argue that a psychic hood would work while embarked, via the measurement rules, then you are also arguing that the Doom of Malantai works on embarked units, via the measurement rules, because the measurement rule is a two way street. However, we have an FAQ saying that the measurement rule is not permission to use any ability you want.

[Leonaides]

then you are also arguing that the Doom of Malantai works on embarked units

Not really since GW have specifically stated that it doesnt...

[DevianID]

then you are also arguing that the Doom of Malantai works on embarked units

 

Not really since GW have specifically stated that it doesnt...

 

That is my point exactly. The exact rule used by tyranid players to allow the Doom and Shadows on embarked units GW says infact DOES NOT give permission for these powers to work on embarked units in vehicles.

 

Thus, according to precedent, the same exact rule being used for a hood, either affecting a psyker unit in a vehicle or an embarked hood to affect an outside psyker model, would also not work. The measurement rule is a two-way street, it works when measuring 'to' or 'from' an embarked unit, but only when a models special rule says it works when embarked.

[SeattleDV8]

Nope, because the unit is embarked it cannot be directly effected from outside abilities, nothing stops the embarked affecting things outside.

We have many abilties that work that way. Icon, shooting, psychic powers etc.

That is the precedent.

[shatter]

paraphrasing an FAQ

"To keep it simple, embarked units cannot be affected"

 

Note it doesn't say embarked units cannot affect and as DV8 has stated and restated, there are several specific mechanics for them doing stuff when embarked.

[DevianID]

Nope, because the unit is embarked it cannot be directly effected from outside abilities, nothing stops the embarked affecting things outside.

We have many abilties that work that way. Icon, shooting, psychic powers etc.

That is the precedent.

 

Where is the rule that no embarked unit can be affected in a transport? Also, where is the rule that says your embarked vehicle affects things outside? I almost dare you to quote the embarked measurement rule to support both of your points lol.

 

My issue with your arguments is that they are based on how you play, not on how the rules read. I too play the way you do, however I am arguing that the rules do not support how you and I play the game. The oft misused embarked unit measurement rule is a two way street, it works both to and from. You cant argue 'from' abilities work in one breath and argue 'to' abilities dont work in the other breath.

 

BTW... The 'abilities' you mention all are specific exceptions that allow you to do something while embarked. Your stance is that you need no exception to allow you to use abilities while embarked (such as a psychic hood), yet your 'proof' is to list items that directly contradict your point, as they specifically allow you to do something.

 

And, the standard disclaimer I put with this argument since 5th ed came out. No I dont play this way, no I am not trying to be confrontational, please dont take this the wrong way. This is an acedemic debate based on the rules, past precedent (4th ed, many codexes, and most recently the new faqs), and lack of clarification from GW. GW has never clearly ruled that generic abilites work 'from' or 'to' while embarked, they have only given specific abilites the OK to work embarked while disallowing many, many other abilities from working on embarked units.

[SeattleDV8]

quote]BRB FAQ Q: Can Psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a

transport? (p50)

A: For simplicityʼs sake, the answer has to be a firm ʻNo,

unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transportedʼ

So no psychic powers on embarked units.

Q: Can an embarked unit ever be the target of enemy

shooting? (p67)

A: No. Only the transport vehicle can be hit.

Also shooting attacks are out.

The very few non-shooting, non-psychic attacks or effects around ('nid and Tau for example) have all been ruled not to work on embarked units.

There is nothing in the game that directly effects passengers and all rulings back that.

4th ed. did treat passengers very differently and as so is only confusing the issue at this point.

 

On the other hand the embarked units can freely interact with the game.

Shooting is allowed , with normal restrictions

Also psychic powers

Q: Can a model use a psychic power that is not a Psychic

Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a transport vehicle? (p50)

A: Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is still

worked out from the vehicleʼs fire points (this will count as

one model shooting through that fire point if the power is

used in the Shooting phase).

If the psychic power does not require line of sight and has

a range or an area of effect that is normally measured

from the model using it, these are measured from the

vehicleʼs hull, as explained in the Embarking section on

page 66.

Almost anything with an area of effect is treated the same; if embarked, measure from the hull.

There are a few things that don't work when embarked (although I can't think of any off hand) but they are the exceptions and say so.

[timmytool]

Where is the rule that no embarked unit can be affected in a transport? Also, where is the rule that says your embarked vehicle affects things outside? I almost dare you to quote the embarked measurement rule to support both of your points lol.

 

while these faq's don't rule out all affects on transported units their are more FAQ and written rules to negate their affects

BRB FAQ v1.2 p 3 column 1 q7 no psychic powers with one exception and a RAI reference to no outside affects to transported units.

" p 4 " 2 q1 no shooting units in transports

my below argument discount even more effects.

 

My issue with your arguments is that they are based on how you play, not on how the rules read. I too play the way you do, however I am arguing that the rules do not support how you and I play the game. The oft misused embarked unit measurement rule is a two way street, it works both to and from. You cant argue 'from' abilities work in one breath and argue 'to' abilities dont work in the other breath.

 

BTW... The 'abilities' you mention all are specific exceptions that allow you to do something while embarked. Your stance is that you need no exception to allow you to use abilities while embarked (such as a psychic hood), yet your 'proof' is to list items that directly contradict your point, as they specifically allow you to do something.

 

It can be said (RAW/RAI) the transported unit/models are no longer represented in their past form but as a unit inside the vehicle coexisting (and therefor benefit from the vehicle statuses like being unaffected by morale or special rules that don't affect vehicles) and range is now measured from the hull.

 

BRB p66 column 2 paragraph 2 (embarking) - the units past gaming form is removed but is replaced by being "transported" no mention to losing war-gear/weapons or abilities

BRB p66 column 1 paragraph 5-6 if the removed from the table argument was valid then the unit could not fire their non-existing weapons out of the fire points

(the rules don't say they keep their weapons only where to measure from like the embarking rule)

BRB p63 column 2 paragraph 2 (vehicles and morale)

BRB FAQ v1.2 p 4 paragraph 1 q11 - they co-exist

 

And, the standard disclaimer I put with this argument since 5th ed came out. No I dont play this way, no I am not trying to be confrontational, please dont take this the wrong way. This is an acedemic debate based on the rules, past precedent (4th ed, many codexes, and most recently the new faqs), and lack of clarification from GW. GW has never clearly ruled that generic abilites work 'from' or 'to' while embarked, they have only given specific abilites the OK to work embarked while disallowing many, many other abilities from working on embarked units.

 

while all might not agree with my interpretation most should be able to see the logic used to back this line of interpretation.