GK Stats/Weapons Vs Point Value

[slmellon]

Are these guys 15 pt Space Marines with suped up armor and weapons, or have their points been adjusted? Cant find any solid references and my LGS closed down (good thing i move in 2 weeks) so i cant look at a dex. If i remember correctly dont they all have storm bolters and some kind of power weapon? And i read somewhere a 3++ Sv? Please tell me they are at least 30 pts a piece

 

slm

[MaveriK]

Space Wolf Space Wolf ra ra ra, Space Wolf Space Wolf ha ha ha! GK whaa? I don't think we are allowed to post points or stat lines. Maybe private message someone in the appropriate astartes section.

[JamesI]

Grey Knights are significantly more expensive than Grey Hunters or Normal Marines

[slmellon]

The only reason the question was here is because they are the new shiny army and I was wondering about facing them, then I was wondering if they were posterboys and given "special treatment"

 

Wasnt looking for actual stats, I'll edit my OP, was looking for I guess differences between a GK and a GH, like every they have a every thing the same except, GK have better Sv and they all fart AP2 rainbows.

 

Thanks James that is what I am looking for.

[Thunderhawk3015]

GK's are your standard marine armor, with a storm bolter and force sword. You can go nuts with upgrades for squads, but it will cost in the points department.

[slmellon]

I think my question is are base points for each proportionate to each other? I keep hearing of the Badassedness of GKs but do their point values reflect this also? I mean they can move shoot twice and assault with a weapon that can straight kill a man, they are termys in PA.

[skoll]

Grey Knights are significantly more expensive than Grey Hunters or Normal Marines

if by significantly you mean 5. thats their standard troop at least everything is more expensive by far, but their standard guys are a bargain for what they bring. tough we can still out shoot em.

[Grey Mage]

Grey Knights run 20pts a peice, with forceweapon and stormbolter. Halberds, possibly their best weapon option and certainly the most common, is an extra 5.

 

Of course, their units have issues- psycannons are their most versatile weapon, and frankly the best anti-tank weapon their troops have available. Every other unit on the codex, save inquisitorial warbands, are more expensive by a good bit- some as high as 55pts a model for infantry units.

 

And they die as easily as any marine. Once their upgrades are but on them and a transport taken your looking at around 30-32pts a marine.

 

The problem is to many people are going OMG THEY ALL HAVE POWERWEAPONS. Their weakness to shooting is very real, and theyre not invincible in CC either- though caution needs to be taken.

[greatcrusade08]

The problem is to many people are going OMG THEY ALL HAVE POWERWEAPONS. Their weakness to shooting is very real, and theyre not invincible in CC either- though caution needs to be taken.

 

no, i go "OMG THEY ALL HAVE FORCEWEAPONS"..

ive been trying to think how you could best them in assault, becuase you need to do it eventually.

if you use characters you cant hide from the hidden fist or forceweapon, becuase any member of the squad can activate his lightsabre and cut you down.

IIRC as a squad they only have the one psychic power per turn, so at least they cant get S5 with hamerhand aswell as forceweapons, and for some daft reason GK thought it wise to give an option to have I6 on units with 100% forceweapons just for laughs.. your ICs are not safe.... ever.

 

i think tbh with one or two attacks base (cant remember) the basic GK squads can be manageable, most are at I4 and your HQs can strike first, and if you get the rest of the squad to 'block' you can probably luck/math your way out of instant death (only one attack back, has to hit at 4+ has to wound at 4+, have to fail a 4+ inv, has to pass Ld test).. ironically my scouts would be better at these duties as they are more expendable.

most basic GK units i see come with TH, so aslong as you can whittle the unit to half strength you may be able to kill them before he swings, alternatively furious charge or a couple of HQs (or models with higher I) could probably kill them for no loss.

 

the problem comes with purifier squads and termies, these are loaded with halberds and have grenades, so you cant hide in cover.. thankfully we still ahve inv saves so hammernators and Lotd or wolves with shields and whatnot may still be reasonably safe.. of course its always best to charge than be charged, and a libby to neagte hammerhand would be useful.

 

If for some reason your GK opponent take standard GKs as troops instead of termies (why oh why GW.. I6 termies as troops.. *shakes head*) then you could charge those and shoot the other stuff.

demeching GK early is imperative, luckily long fangs are aplenty in most wolf lists.

 

have at em boys :)

[slmellon]

This was the banter I was kinda lookin for when i started this...thank you brothers.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Death Cult assassins can be troops, and they're I6, WS5, S4 and have three attacks base (2+1). Okay they're T3 with a 5++, but in combat they wreck face.

 

But yes, the basic Grey Knight Strike Squad is a strong shooty unit, with some melee ability.

 

The Purifiers have better melee ability, but point for point they're less shooty.

 

Terminators are half as shooty as GKSS, but can be more survivable in melee against power weapons and the like.

 

Paladins are insanely good at not dying. A decent sized unit with apothecary will probably take an entire game of shooting from non-S8+, AP2-, weapons and still have most of its members alive at the end of the game. Shoot them with lascannons and meltaguns.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

It's only when they start paying for the "extra" toys that their points start to balance out. With just the basics they are under-pointed for their value.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Regardless of whether a ten man Grey Knights Strike Squad assaults or is assaulted by a ten man Grey Hunter Squad worth an equal points value, the Grey Hunters will on average win in two turns, taking five or fewer casualties. I'm not scared of the Strike Squads, even if they all have force weapons and Hammerhand.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It's only when they start paying for the "extra" toys that their points start to balance out. With just the basics they are under-pointed for their value.

 

Probably. But you have to remember that the army has to be designed not just to to fight MEq, but also Orks, Nids and Guard, all of whom the power weapon does nothing against. That they are forced to take it is a problem - it they are properly priced for when they fight MEq, they are too expensive and will get over-run by horde, and when they are properly priced for GEq, they are too cheap and will over-run Marines.

 

Not easy.

 

But Greys are cheaper and with a better set of gear than a Tactical, and are certainly better than a Claw. So it is just GW repeating old 'mistakes' :)

[Hiro_Protagonist]

It's only when they start paying for the "extra" toys that their points start to balance out. With just the basics they are under-pointed for their value.

 

Probably. But you have to remember that the army has to be designed not just to to fight MEq, but also Orks, Nids and Guard, all of whom the power weapon does nothing against. That they are forced to take it is a problem - it they are properly priced for when they fight MEq, they are too expensive and will get over-run by horde, and when they are properly priced for GEq, they are too cheap and will over-run Marines.

 

Not easy.

 

But Greys are cheaper and with a better set of gear than a Tactical, and are certainly better than a Claw. So it is just GW repeating old 'mistakes' :P

 

I agree that finding the right points overall must be tricky.

 

But when considering the following:

- MEQ makes up ~50% of the field (probably more)

- Storm Bolters > Bolters vs. Horde

- Force Weapons rock vs. Nidzilla and Nob mobs

 

I still think they're under priced.

[DeathKorpsman]

Regardless of whether a ten man Grey Knights Strike Squad assaults or is assaulted by a ten man Grey Hunter Squad worth an equal points value, the Grey Hunters will on average win in two turns, taking five or fewer casualties. I'm not scared of the Strike Squads, even if they all have force weapons and Hammerhand.

 

You may want to reconsider. A Strike Squad with default swords is not as daunting, though no AS always stinks for MEQ. However, they can get the halberds mentioned above which changes the outcome dramatically.

 

Scenario: Using my magical powers of guess-ti-math. Feel free to refine my numbers if it seems pertinent.

 

10 GH, 2 x Plasmagun, MoW, Pfist, Standard. Pretty basic loadout that I see alot for objective clearing and such. ~200pts ish.

 

8 GKSS, Halberds, also around 200ish points.

 

GH's assault GKSS:

 

GH's assault. Probably 1 unsaved wound from pistols coming in. GKSS cast Hammerhand, swings with 8 attacks (Justicar has an extra), potentially with Counterattack from a GM for more, but let's say 8 in a vacuum. ~3 dead GH's. GH's swing back with an almighty 15 from the regulars, 2 from the pfist and let's say 6 from MoW (rolled decent). About 3 unsaved wounds from normal attacks and one, very possibly two from pfist. That is including "1" rerolls from the banner. GK's lose by two, but stick. Next turn the GKSS score another 1-2 wounds. Not looking good for the GK. Remaining GH's (about half) roll up the rest of the GKSS. This combat was a bit conservative, with GH's probably able to score more unsaved wounds due to saturation and the feckless attention of the dice gods.

 

GKSS assault GH's:

 

GKSS assault. 16 storm bolter shots bring in ~2 unsaved wounds on the charge. GKSS cast Hammerhand, swings with 17 attacks. ~6 wounds. GH's attack back with 6 normal attacks, 2 pfist, 6 from MoW (yay Counterattack), using banner. ~1 unsaved wound from normal attacks, with maybe another rending wound, and 1 maybe 2 wounds from pfist. So 2-4 wounds ish, we'll say 3. It is now 5 to 4. GH's stick around. GKSS cast Hammerhand again, doing 2 or 3 wounds. MotW and pfist swing back with 5 normal and 1 pfist. Possibly doing about 2 wounds. Next turn they're toast.

 

 

So, don't rely on Counterattack to save your hide in combat with GK's. I've been watching people's GK builds and many people are kitting their assault units out entirely with halberds because, frankly, they rock. Most usually throw a NDH in there too, for bashing vehicles and MC's. With stormbolters and/or special weapons shooting on the way in, plus all their weapons being force weapons, you really don't want to let them get the charge off if you can avoid it. If you can charge them, SW's win. If you let yourself get charged, you probably lose against equal points.

 

I agree that some of the GK units are probably underpriced, but I think there are some passive blocks built into the list that prevent them from being overpowered. Their shooting ability, aside from a very few exceptions, drops like a rock outside a 24" bubble. Even inside that bubble, GK's will struggle to hurt anything with 3+ AS or 13+ AV. Sure they CAN hurt that stuff, but it isn't a done deal. They have to saturate the target and roll well. Given their limited number of units, generally, its tough for them to do this.

 

Splitting a GK's force up, so he can't concentrate fire, is a great way to take advantage of this handicap. Using Rhino's to block off GK squads from each other for example, so he can't focus fire his dakka on your squads, will allow you to overwhelm his usually outnumbered units. GK's are, once on the ground, very very slow except for their jump troops. This can also be an advantage, by staying outside the 24" kill bubble and using your longer range stuff to pummel him while he can't shoot back. Not as easy to do as SW sometimes as it is with other armies, but it is still a viable tactic.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It's only when they start paying for the "extra" toys that their points start to balance out. With just the basics they are under-pointed for their value.

 

Probably. But you have to remember that the army has to be designed not just to to fight MEq, but also Orks, Nids and Guard, all of whom the power weapon does nothing against. That they are forced to take it is a problem - it they are properly priced for when they fight MEq, they are too expensive and will get over-run by horde, and when they are properly priced for GEq, they are too cheap and will over-run Marines.

 

Not easy.

 

But Greys are cheaper and with a better set of gear than a Tactical, and are certainly better than a Claw. So it is just GW repeating old 'mistakes' :P

 

I agree that finding the right points overall must be tricky.

 

But when considering the following:

- MEQ makes up ~50% of the field (probably more)

- Storm Bolters > Bolters vs. Horde

- Force Weapons rock vs. Nidzilla and Nob mobs

 

I still think they're under priced.

 

I think you are fairly right :P

So without trying to counter what you are saying, remember that a killy marine who is cheapish still dies quicker than 2 normal Marines.

That means we need to blunt their killiness and play to their fragility.

Perhaps they are like obsidian? Hard and very sharp [i think obsidian still has a keener edge than any steel....?] but if you can "wear" that or hit first, you can snap them more easily than the less deadly but more robust iron blade....

 

I think that means shooty that is greater than 24" in range - Fangs, Typhoons, Rifleman, Lasplasbacks and maybe even the vanilla LR that Darkseer used to great effect in his latest tourney.

 

Thin them out.

 

Maybe things to hit the Psyflemen dreads - MM Speeders, melta-pods, Scouts, etc. Stop them from being able to duel with you at >24", thin them out and then move in for the kill and Objectives....

[Hiro_Protagonist]

It's only when they start paying for the "extra" toys that their points start to balance out. With just the basics they are under-pointed for their value.

 

Probably. But you have to remember that the army has to be designed not just to to fight MEq, but also Orks, Nids and Guard, all of whom the power weapon does nothing against. That they are forced to take it is a problem - it they are properly priced for when they fight MEq, they are too expensive and will get over-run by horde, and when they are properly priced for GEq, they are too cheap and will over-run Marines.

 

Not easy.

 

But Greys are cheaper and with a better set of gear than a Tactical, and are certainly better than a Claw. So it is just GW repeating old 'mistakes' <_<

 

I agree that finding the right points overall must be tricky.

 

But when considering the following:

- MEQ makes up ~50% of the field (probably more)

- Storm Bolters > Bolters vs. Horde

- Force Weapons rock vs. Nidzilla and Nob mobs

 

I still think they're under priced.

 

I think you are fairly right :huh:

So without trying to counter what you are saying, remember that a killy marine who is cheapish still dies quicker than 2 normal Marines.

That means we need to blunt their killiness and play to their fragility.

Perhaps they are like obsidian? Hard and very sharp [i think obsidian still has a keener edge than any steel....?] but if you can "wear" that or hit first, you can snap them more easily than the less deadly but more robust iron blade....

 

I think that means shooty that is greater than 24" in range - Fangs, Typhoons, Rifleman, Lasplasbacks and maybe even the vanilla LR that Darkseer used to great effect in his latest tourney.

 

Thin them out.

 

Maybe things to hit the Psyflemen dreads - MM Speeders, melta-pods, Scouts, etc. Stop them from being able to duel with you at >24", thin them out and then move in for the kill and Objectives....

 

I definitely agree with your reasoning on how to deal with them. Stay away and shoot them up sounds good to me!

 

Like the osbidian comparison by the way. In fact, my favourite weapon has always been the old Aztec "sword".

 

Macuahuiltl: The macuahuitl is sometimes referred to as a sword or club, but it lacks a true European equivalent. The weapon was a wooden plank 3 to 4 feet long, and three inches broad, with a one or two-handed grip for swinging and rows of obsidian blades embedded in its sides. The bladed edges were capable of inflicting serious lacerations, up to and including beheading an opponent, while the flat side could be used to deliver a knockout blow.

 

I've seen footage where one hit easily cleaves through a person! (gel and bone analog was used of course)

[matchbox]

You wanna know the best way to beat grey knights in combat? Rune priests. That 4+ nullify is irritating as hell as it can stop ourforce weapons and our hammerhand spell. Other than that. Wolfguard w/ frost blade and storm shield.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah... but heres the thing- who really cares about force weapons besides our HQ section? Thunderwolves? Meh- were still looking at a bunch of powerweapons attacking an army primarily made of single wound models without invulnerable saves. Assault is not the first option here.

[DV8]

Even our HQ department doesn't really care. Our strongest HQ "fighters" all have Eternal Warrior anyways, so their Force Weapons do nothing. Hammerhand coupled with Might of the Titans is a bigger threat because it will allow them to land more wound and force us to roll saves.

 

Rune Priests (this is where Njal will shine, with his 3+ null rod) to nullify the Grey Knight powers will be key. Beyond that, target priority is the key to beating Grey Knights. Cut their transports out from under them, removing their mobility. Then target their long-range firepower (like Vindicare Assassins and Psyfleman Dreadnoughts) to minimize incoming firepower, and move in for the kill. The optimal Grey Knight range is the 12.1"-24" mark, where their Storm Bolters will outpace our Bolters/Plasmaguns/etc. So when you move in close, make sure you can make a big enough dent. Otherwise you'll bounce right off and walk right into the Grey Knight kill zone.

 

 

DV8

[eyeslikethunder]

i was told they ignore eternal warrior !

by a grey knights player who had forgot his codex

[JamesI]

i was told they ignore eternal warrior !

by a grey knights player who had forgot his codex

I believe the only ignore eternal warrior for demons.

[Skirnir Ragefang]

They don't ignore Eternal warrior at all. They are regular Force weapons with the addition that a wounded Deamon or Psyker has to pass a LD test or be removed from play. The force weapons however do NOT have to be activated to do this. (e.g. no LD test required)

 

Just looked it up in the Codex :) So mostly dangerous to our Rune Priests.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Except two wounds will kill those anyway.

 

A typical Grey Knights strike squad will be 10 men, 2 psycannons, and the Justicar taking a master crafter daemon hammer. In a Rhino (because Mech is king) that's 275 points.

 

What does 275 points get us in a Grey Hunter pack?

 

Well a Grey Hunter pack (leaving out the Wolf Guard because he's technically a separate unit) naked is 150 points. Add two meltaguns guns, a plasma pistol, mark of the Wulfen, wolf totem, power fist, Rhino and that's 245 points. We have to work to get there. We still have 30 points to spare.

 

Grey Hunters charge... charge? What is this thing you speak of? Anyway. The hunters have three wounds on 2s/ignore saves shots before assaulting, it's reasonable to assume they'll kill two. The bolt pistols may account for another 1. That's three down. Then the assault. Grey Knights hit of 4, wound on 4, ignore saves. They have 6 power weapon attacks, let's call it two casualties. The Hunters generate about 28 attacks, with hits on 4s (re-roll 1s) wounds on 4s (re-rolls 1s) and the Grey Knights get normal saves. That's another 2-3 wounds. The Justicar and the power fist go together, he get's two attacks (re-rolling one attack) so perhaps 1-2 wounds, and the Grey Hunter gets 2 attacks, 4s to hit (re-roll 1s) and wounds on 2s (re-roll 1s). So another wound realistically. So about 7 dead Grey Knights and 4 dead Grey Hunters, who are much cheaper.

 

Of course with storm bolters and psycannon the Grey Knights will (through torrenting) do a lot more damage when they charge, and with the bonus attacks from charging they'll probably wipe out the Wolves. That said, the only time we should be sitting in front of the Grey Knights is after rapid firing into them. There should be a few dead Knights after that.