Weapons of choice

[Cambodia]

Hi guys.

Just wondering as a rookie player that has just lost his gaming virginity. What weapons are best??? What are practical??? Etc.

Im on my way to building a 2000pt force and in the process of list making i have come stuck on this subject. Peronally i like Las-cannons just their look suits the futuristic look of the game, but with single shots & costs etc are they the way to go? So that is the question.

 

What weapons are prominant in your force?What do you prefer and why?

 

Bolters

Plasma's

Las-cannons

Meltas

Flamers

Launchers

Power weapons etc

 

Pro's & Cons of weapons and choices?

 

Any input would be great. as i do want a competitive army that i still enjoy the look of.

 

Cheers Cambo

[Mysticaria]

I assume we are talking about equipping infantry? If not, I like demolisher canons, autocanons, and thunderfire canons. :P Anyway, they are all good... it really depends on what you are shooting at. Ideally you want something with high-enough strength so that you wound on 2+ or 3+ and with a low-enough AP to ignore armor, balanced with the number of shots, the cost and availability. Each squad has different weapon options as well, so the answer will vary by squad. Judging from your question... are you looking at tactical squads? If so, check out these threads for some different opinions.

threads: "All Comers" Tactical Squad or Tactical Squad Layout

 

Lascanons are ok in tactical squads, but cost 5 points more than a multimelta. They are a good deal on predators (combipred has autocanon on top and lascanons on the side for only 120 points) and some people like them on dreadnaughts as well. You give up the AP1 but get +1s and some range. Most times I've considered lascanon I ended up going with a multimelta instead, but its not a bad choice. Difference is really going to be how its used, as a lascanon wants to be at long range while the multimelta wants to be in a rhino in the middle of the battle. I think most people give the edge to the Multimelta since it has AP1 which is huge for shooting vehicles, and since all the bolters in the squad will be in range to potentially fire as well.

 

Flamers and meltaguns are both golden... probably the most popular special weapons. Likewise, combimeltas and combiflamers are both good and can go great with a squad that already has one so they can "double up" on one key turn of shooting. I like plasmaguns and combiplasmas, but they are more risky and fill a different role than flamer/melta so they aren't as popular.

 

Missile launchers are awesome. Especially the Typhoon and Cyclone launchers which have 2 shots each. Hard to argue with a free tactical squad missile launcher, especially because the black reach models are cheap and easy to get. You'll see a lot of people take missiles. In my 1,500 tournament army I have 10 missile shots/turn. AP3 is good enough to break most armor, and S8 is enough to get most transports and MCs.

 

Power weapons and power fists are generally more varied in opinion. Lots of people like them, but others think they are overcosted. It really comes down to what you want the squad to do. If you start wasting points on things that won't be used often, it can really impact the army quickly. After all, it doesn't take too many powerfists or lascanons to add up to a landspeeder or a dreadnaught.

 

Bottom line: every weapon is good, just have a plan for it. If you take something you like, you should be ok.

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

Lascanons are ok in tactical squads, but cost 5 points more than a multimelta. They are a good deal on predators (combipred has autocanon on top and lascanons on the side for only 120 points) and some people like them on dreadnaughts as well. You give up the AP1 but get +1s and some range. Most times I've considered lascanon I ended up going with a multimelta instead, but its not a bad choice. Difference is really going to be how its used, as a lascanon wants to be at long range while the multimelta wants to be in a rhino in the middle of the battle. I think most people give the edge to the Multimelta since it has AP1 which is huge for shooting vehicles, and since all the bolters in the squad will be in range to potentially fire as well.

 

I have good news for you Myst, multi-meltas are free on Tactical squads, while lascannons cost 10pts. So you've been paying too much for your MMs and can now fit another 10-15pts of stuff into your list :).

 

Anyway, I agree with Myst, flamers and MMs are definitely the most popular weapons for Tactical squads at the moment. I myself typically run two squads with combi-flamer, flamer, MM in a Rhino. They sit in midfield and attempt to control it, if you get it right you've got a potential 96" coverage with two multi-meltas, although it's probably best to make it less, both for board size and keeping your Tactical squads close enough to support each other. Nonetheless that's a big zone that vehicles won't want to enter, making your opponent think twice. And then there's the flamers. Flamers and boltgun, plus the one shot from the combi-flamer is enough to decimate most infantry squads, while MEQ will struggle due to the amount of wounds caused on them. With Vulkan this gets nastier, I've wiped out nearly whole units of Marines with one round of shooting from one of these squads.

 

The big debate, however, is missile launcher vs multi-melta, and a lot of the time it comes down to personal preference and availability. I have nothing against the ML, I just prefer MMs in my midfield Tactical squads, and a plasma cannon in my one offensive/defensive squad (it's one of two squads in my big, big army designed to potentially combat squad). Availability comes into it because through Black Reach and regular Tactical sets you only get missile launchers for them, while you get loads of specials. For MMs, heavy bolters etc you need the Dev squad set. I don't find this too bad however, as I found that I have enough Marines left over to make a Dev squad with the spare pieces, giving me the Tacticals I wanted and letting me field a 1xLC, 3xML Dev squad. In general I put my missile launchers on my Typhoons, which are fantastic when run in squadrons of two. Other people prefer MLs in their Tactical squads as it gives them range, flexibility, and allows them to combat squad effectively if need be.

 

Plasma guns are borderline weapons, some people use them, such as Myst, others don't. I like plasma, but find my flamers do more for me in the long run. In the upcoming Badab War campaign, however, I'll be looking at using a couple of plasma weapons to combat with the multitude of Marine armies that will be running around. However, plasma weapons are very prevalent in Command squads, where people often take advantage of FnP to take four of them fire them relatively safely. Plasma cannons are used quite a lot, due to cheap points cost and potential destructive ability.

 

Other popular weapons are autocannons, normally seen on Preds and Rifleman Dreads, Demo cannons tend be popular, filling in the role of either plasma or flamer, depending on what you don't take as they can take MEQ and hordes (although not cover).

 

In the end it comes down to playstyle and preference. My playstyle and preference means I favour autocannons and missiles on robust, mobile units for my long-range firepower, while I like to control midfield with meltas, flamers, and demo cannons. Other people have different preferred weapons depending on how they play.

 

Also, if you're looking for ideas on outfitting Tactical squads etc, don't hesitate to take a look at the C:SM 101 link in my sig. In there are some ideas and examples of commonly run Tactical squads, and what they can do on the battlefield.

 

Hope all this helps.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Every weapon in the game fits a different bracket. If you want the short answer, flamers and meltaguns together will probably help you out with the majority of targets, but let me break it down a bit for you...

 

Bolters - Our standard gun, not so effective alone but becomes more acceptable in large numbers. Generally its not something that i'd pay to upgrade to, but as its free its a pretty decent start point. Its anti-infantry all the way

 

 

Plasma's - Plasma can be pretty pricey and the user runs the risk of dying. But beyond those downsides this is one lethal gun that can help take out the enemy elite units easily. Basically aim it at anything heavily armoured (space marines, terminators etc)

 

Las-cannons - A long ranged weapon that has a primary use of being a vehicle opener I suppose, its quite expensive and its debated at how effective it is for its points, but it is possible to get a good number to the field!

 

 

Meltas - One of our staple guns, this is the space marine answer to vehicles and primarily heavy vehicles. It operates best at half its maximum range so you'll need to be really close to get to use it, buts its our most reliable tool for making sure that a vehicle goes boom!

 

 

Flamers - Another staple gun, it provides a nice template to scorch enemies, making it a very useful weapon against large numbers of enemies, particularly those who are badly armoured, its much less effective against heavily armoured targets like terminators and to some extent, marines.

 

Launchers - Missile Launchers are a pretty basic and all round good gun, its got a good range and can operate reasonably well against lightly armoured vehicles, its very cheap wherever you find it and in number can be quite a potent addition

 

(Autocannons - Autocannons are less common than the other weapons but deserve a mention. They are mostly found on predator tanks and 'rifleman' or 'half rifleman' dreadnoughts (ones with an autocannon arm or two). They aren't particularly strong, but they do excel at opening up light vehicles or putting injuries onto monstrous creatures.

 

Power weapons etc - Power weapons are ideal at ripping open well armoured targets and are the staple of an elite fighting unit, whilst power fists and thunder hammers strike slower, they are also very powerful! Storm shields usually assist in keeping a melee squad like this alive.

 

 

Overall there isn't a BEST weapon. It all comes down to factors such as the number of weapons and how they work in your army. For instance some people may take very little melta weaponry and rely heavily on massed autocannon and missile fire to deal with the majority of vehicles. Others will overload on melta weaponry. The character Vulkan is useful as he boosts flamers and meltas (potentially our best 2 weapons) which makes your army all the more powerful, but more so if you overloaded on flamers and meltas! There are loads of ways to use weaponry and mixing and matching so that units can cover several targets or work in tandem with another unit is usually a good idea

[Fatuous]

Hard to say much more with out starting to repeat the above posters, who got it pretty spot on.

 

It really does depend on several factors as to 'which is best?' as depending on the situation, they all can be 'best'. Also, depending what else you have in your list, some work out better than others might, and there are certainly some things that are cheap in some FOC allocations than others.

 

For Example I think the tac squad lascannon is prob the cheapest way of getting one.

 

Alot of this will really come down to your play style and the rest of ur list choices. If you are 36" from a tank and want to kill it, then a lascannon is poss your best bet (Or Auto cannons if they are light transports) over a MM that can't even hit it. But with in 12" that MM has a much better chance of popping a transport. IO gues what I'm trying to say is situation is key here, there is no one best (which is good, it makes the games far more interesting).

 

So if you want to be sitting back and shooting from range, then those lascannons are argueably better than any number of MMs.

 

If you have ways of getting a MM to it's sweet spot (podding in a dread, fast moving land speeder, etc.... the MM is far better at it). Likewise for troops in transports, that want to move upfield, they make great area denial units.... no one wants to put an expensive vehicle any where near them., as opposed to a ML, which is far less frightening.

 

I'd love to get MMs in my tac squads, but suffer from not buying a dev box yet, so I stick with the humble, free ML which is a great support weapon. Great range, 2 firing modes...... you really can not complain about this as a free upgrade, it can handle most things. But with only 1 of them, you are not really going to be getting much done with it, and the rest of your tac squad might be just sat around not doing anything.

 

With special characters changing things so much, depending on ur HQ, things change massively too. As already mentioned, take Vulcan and ur flamers and melta weapons just got a huge buff, so you prob want mostly these weapons. Take kantor, and a small stern guard unit with 2 cheap heavy weapons like ML for home base defense becomes much more tempting, as it doube the ML numbers, and can score. So if you are planning on taking a SC, that will change the rest of your army build quite dramatically.

 

When building a list, there are prob 2 main factors to consider before you put any real thought to what you are taking. Are you making a balanced list that can take on anyone, or do you have a smaller pool of enemies to fight against. I would strongly consider the balanced list over tailored lists, but if you are only ever going to fight orks, etc.... then you are going to want a lot of flamers.........

 

You need to make sure you can handle hordes, monsterous creatures, transports, heavy tanks (AV14) and heavy infantry. Aim to get in a couple of ways of dealing with both and you are on your way to a good list.

 

How you fill these roles is really up to you. If you want to be taking lascannons, then I would prob put them in tac squads, sitting in your DZ that are not going to be moving much. Or in a rhino, shooting from the top hatch. A plasma gun might be a nice special weapon, as gives you another reasonable strength shot up to 24". Or a flamer as they are free, and good for defending when enemies get too close. Or heck an melta so you can move out and take down armour that gets too close. But as you have the lascannon, I'd prob trust it to deal with things at range.

 

But by doing this......... you are pretty much making the rest of those tac squads extra bodies..... they will never be shooting at the same thing as the lascannon, so all their bolters are pretty much wasted. Unless you combat squad of course...... giving greater tactical use, but less resiliance.

 

From your post, I think you are going around this process in the best way. Focusing on those units you like, you can identify with your army better that way, and won't get bored painting. So have a look at the army list choices, and the way you'd like to fight (blasting at range, large numbers of tanks, fast moving skimmers, etc........) and find options that effectively cover all the must have roles to be covered (hordes, MCs, transports, etc...) and see what fits. Then trim off the excess that wont fit in your point limits. There are a lot of list building articles around, as yet I can not think of 1 that was not really useful. So get reading!!! <_<

 

As an example, here is a list I used recently, broken down to show it's different parts. I would be the first to admit that this is not a hugely competitive list, I only used it to get so newly painted models on the table for the first time, but I did make sure it covered all the basics.

 

Master of the forge (can fix things, anti horde as has a flamer)

Tac squad, flamer, ML (all rounders, mostly anti horde, but can deal with light transports)

Tac squad, plasma gun, ML (mosly anit horde as above, but with added anti light transport and heavy inf)

Scout squad, combi melta, power fist, missile launcher, 4 snipers, 2 shot guns, 2 combat blades (can take on most thing, anti horde in CC, anti heavy tanks, with melta, and anti transport with ML: I was testing out this unit to see if it worked....... as yet, undecided)

2 Dreadnaughts with MM and heavy flamer (anti horde and anti heavy tanks)

1 dreadnaught, 2 twin linked autocannon (poss the best anti light vehicle weapon platform I've ever used).

5 CC terminators (anti MC, heavy inf, tank........)

land raider redeemer (anti horde, but with a MM on top, also anti heavy armour, that can move quite quickly)

[DerekLee688]

I'll throw in my two cents in as well.

 

Bolters/Bolt Pistols- These are our base weapons and they are anti horde. In fact all of our infantry are anti horde until you start upgrading them. Against marines you'll have to rely on special or heavy weapons that fire AP 3 or less to bypass their armor. You could also simply pile on wounds with flamers, more bolters, and Frag missiles, however, this is less effective if they have higher toughness (from bikes or plague marines) or have Feel No Pain(like Blood angels, plague marines, or orks with doctors).

 

Melta weapons- S:8 AP:1 standard, means you can kill any vehicle in the game and also ignore armor of Marines/Terminators while causing instant death to the vast majority of Marine characters that are T:4 or T:4(5). Only downside is range and number of shots. Most people put their melta on fast moving units like land speeders, attack bikes, bike squads, drop pods, etc.

 

Autocannons- S:7 AP:4 Can't relyably kill Armor 13 and 14 vehicles. Can't penetrate marine armor or cause instant death. The upside they have 2-4 times the range, twinlinked half of the time, and double the shots of melta. They hurt/kill transports and light vehicles of all the codexes but fail to affect infantry that isn't horde. Pretty rare too, only two units in most Marine codexes have them.

 

Missle Launcher- Krak shot S:8 AP:3 does what autocannon does just better. Same range, easier to kill AV:13 tanks and possibly kill AV14, bypasses marine armor saves, and causes Instant death. Cyclones and Typhoons give the same number of shots as autocannon but you will never have them twinlinked like a rifleman(2xautocannons on Dreadnought). Frag shot S:4 AP:6, blast gives you a nice anti-horde weapon to go with your anti-horde bolters at no extra cost.

 

Assault Cannons- awsome weapon, few weapons have as many shots and it's rending allows it to kill AV:14 vehicles as well as Lascannons and still chew through infantry and ignoring some armor saves. Down side is that it is expensive. If you're a Blood Angel player, you get the most options to use them and with most options being twin-linked.

 

Power Weapons- Powerfists, lightning claws, relic blades, thunderhammers, frost weapons, glaive encarmine, Blood fist, blood talons, DCCW etc. They all have different additional rules, but the one constant is Power weapons. These are what turn the anti horde close combat attacks of marines into marine/terminator/elite killing units needed if shooting isn't producing enough casualties (C:SM perspective). If your infantry doesn't have special CC rules like rending attacks, furious charge, or even Feel no Pain then you need units carring alot of power weapons to overcome more skilled CC armies. However, this opens another problem of transporting them and paying for them, as they get expensive quickly and are prime targets to get shot at. A popular tactic is to only use them against enemy units already in CC with your non CC units. This prevents them from being shot at and can only be attacked if the guys they are saving die or get assaulted by a new unit, this is what vets call Counter Assault units.

[DarkGuard]

One sec guys, just want to check something with all of you, especially the OP. The stuff that Grim and DerekLee688 in particular have said is very, very good. I was just wondering if you'd be all right with me taking those, condensing them together and adding them into a new section in my C:SM 101. Sounds about right that there should be a part about weapons now I think about it.

[Mysticaria]

Lascanons are ok in tactical squads, but cost 5 points more than a multimelta. They are a good deal on predators (combipred has autocanon on top and lascanons on the side for only 120 points) and some people like them on dreadnaughts as well. You give up the AP1 but get +1s and some range. Most times I've considered lascanon I ended up going with a multimelta instead, but its not a bad choice. Difference is really going to be how its used, as a lascanon wants to be at long range while the multimelta wants to be in a rhino in the middle of the battle. I think most people give the edge to the Multimelta since it has AP1 which is huge for shooting vehicles, and since all the bolters in the squad will be in range to potentially fire as well.

 

I have good news for you Myst, multi-meltas are free on Tactical squads, while lascannons cost 10pts. So you've been paying too much for your MMs and can now fit another 10-15pts of stuff into your list :cuss.

 

ha.. yeah. I was thinking of plasma canon being 5 points. I know MM are free, so unfortunately no more room in my list. Just means its harder to take lascanons if I wanted to.

 

-Myst

[Cambodia]

Cheers guys for all your insight and input it is muchly appreciated.

 

I am planning on decking my tact squads each with missile launchers and meltaguns.

 

My dred, landraider and pred are all equiped with las cannons

Most of my Sgt.s will have power axes and hammers as i think they fit in with the imagery of the Imperial Fists

 

Any other input or advice welcome

 

Cheers once again to all the guys above.

CAM

[pattison]

My favourite weapons are plasma pistols, guns and cannons (especially cannons!), but they can't be used very effectively in an SM army.

Except cannons as great defensive weapons for campers.

 

I normally use tons of missile launchers alongside my other favourite weapons: heavy bolters and autocannons.

I always fail to hit with meltas or if I hit I roll snake eyes for penetration. So I use minimal meltas, mostly guns.

Infantry-equipped lascannons are also prone to miss in my hands, but a pair of combi-predators is still a staple in most of my SM lists, they're very very reliable and resistant on the long term.

 

So pretty much missile spam, heavy bolters, autocannons (on dreads and preds), some lascannons and minimal needed melta.

I'd love to use more plasma though but it's quite difficult.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Since 'weaker' weapons tend to have a pretty decent range you can quite effectively 'carpet' your army with them, things like missile launchers and autocannons work well in numbers and can lay down a pretty decent barrage, sure its not going to break apart tough vehicles like land raiders, but it'll certainly rip open smaller pieces of armour and then you can always sprinkle a couple of melta weapons to use to take out heavy armoured vehicles. Though the appearance of a free multi-melta in tactical squads really makes it worthwhile...

 

I kind of wonder if its possible to forgo melta altogether and just rely on massed missile launcher/ autocannon fire to deal with most enemes and slow up tough vehicles.....

[Mysticaria]

Since 'weaker' weapons tend to have a pretty decent range you can quite effectively 'carpet' your army with them, things like missile launchers and autocannons work well in numbers and can lay down a pretty decent barrage, sure its not going to break apart tough vehicles like land raiders, but it'll certainly rip open smaller pieces of armour and then you can always sprinkle a couple of melta weapons to use to take out heavy armoured vehicles. Though the appearance of a free multi-melta in tactical squads really makes it worthwhile...

 

I kind of wonder if its possible to forgo melta altogether and just rely on massed missile launcher/ autocannon fire to deal with most enemes and slow up tough vehicles.....

Yeah, it's possible. My army has lots of missiles and only just a little melta. I do have Vindicators and Chainfists to cover some LR hunting duties, but mostly I just rely on ignoring land radraiders whenever possible. Unless they are filled with scoring unit and sitting on an objective, most times they just don't need to be killed. There are easier kill points out there, and once they've delivered their cargo what are they going to do, kill a few models? Most times they don't leave you shaking in your boots. Against other tanks, you should be able to get a missile onto the side armor and solve that problem.

 

-Myst

[pattison]

Yes.

Land Raiders in my opponent's army make me happy even if I have 2-3 meltaguns in mine and that's it.

A bunch of fast Predators is a totally different story... :D

[TyrionTheImp]

I kind of wonder if its possible to forgo melta altogether and just rely on massed missile launcher/ autocannon fire to deal with most enemes and slow up tough vehicles.....

 

I think it's possible in say a Tau list where Broadsides can fill in lack for lack of melta. Really the only Tau unit people bring fusion blasters on are piranhas, but those are more for blocking than actually doing damage. As for a Space Marine list, one would have to bring a lot of devastators, riflemen, and Typhoons for the effect, but then you'd be short on scoring bodies and be outgunned by armies with better and/or cheaper guns.

 

I think any good list should have a good amount of high strength long range firepower, it's the best way to deal with transports before they get into range, and melta is the best way to deal with it when they are in range. I love missile launchers, they're cheap and you can get multiples of them for the price of a lascannon. Personally, I'd much rather have 2 S8 shots for one S9 any day.

 

To the original post, I'm a big fan of flamers, meltas, and missile launchers. I carry these and only these on my tactical squads, and are often found in other parts of my army. A well placed flamer template (or two) combined with a rapid firing tactical squad can deal significant damage to an enemy squad. Melta is king as long as mech is king as far as I'm concerned, and has some uses against heavier infantry and such. Missile launchers are cheap and effective and dual-role.

 

I don't really use plasma, I just don't see it as good of a choice. Firstly, it lacks focus. It can threaten light vehicles and effectively kill any infantry in the game, as well as put wounds on Monstrous Creatures, etc, but it's not nearly as good against vehicles as Melta (AP 1 REALLY helps with that), and a flamer has a chance of doing even more damage to any infantry (simply by putting more wounds), and makes wound allocation a bit more difficult. If you rapid fire your bolters and a plasma gun on a squad, and both your plasma gun shots hit and wound, it's likely those will be placed on the same guy, meaning your plasma becomes as effective as a single melta shot. A flamer on the other hand adds far more wounds reliably to the squad and makes wound allocating much harder because you just have more wounds to allocate. This changes when you have A LOT of plasma, like the quad-plasma command squad. There's a reason it's popular, and it doesn't have those extra bolter wounds to play wound allocation games with.

 

Plasma cannons i dislike because they're blast only. Blasts seem too hit or miss. I've used cannons many times until recently, and they only did memorable things about twice. When they do work they're AWESOME, but for the most part they won't do much.

[DerekLee688]

@Darkguard: Go ahead and take what you need for your C:SM 101. It's already helped me in learning how to use options in the codex.

[DarkGuard]

@Darkguard: Go ahead and take what you need for your C:SM 101. It's already helped me in learning how to use options in the codex.

 

Thanks, I'll certainly make sure you're stuff is in there. I will credit everyone in this thread, don't you guys worry :yes:.

 

I'll do it all the next time I have the opportunity, a bit tired at the moment.

 

By all means guys, keep this up. Some very useful stuff here. I find myself agreeing with a lot of people, I certainly wish plasma was better or cheaper.