Stormraven Question

[Tybrus]

So reading the new codex and I note that the Stormraven can take this ammo giving a +1 str to each weapon on the ship.

 

My question is this, if taken then Bolters on the Craft str 5. Does this option negate the use as a defensive weapons?

 

?

[nurglez]

I would say yes, as they are now str 5, and weapons need to be str 4 or less to be defensive.

[Darkmagi]

I would say its debatable as the entry states that the model "counts the strength of its shots as one higher then normal" To me this says weapon stays str 4 until it shoots, its shots are resolved at str 5 for wounding/penetration.

[Techmarine Harkus]

I agree that by making the bolters S5 they cannot be defensive weapons.

 

The alternative seems more like blagging the wording in order to get a benefit.

[Prathios]

This has been a hotly debated point in other posts with those very much for and against the issue. I have a hard time taking away the defensive rule as the weapon has not changed the ammo has. Realistically a weapon in real life does not change a bit because of the ammo. Only the ammo changed so it just seems silly to me that the weapon would change. Granted I see the argument from both sides. Personally I wouldn't take away the defensive weapon rule though.

[Seahawk]

As they are now Strength 5, they are now Normal weapons instead of Defensive weapons; Defensive weapons are defined as Strength 4 or less, while normal weapons are Strength 5 or higher. It's THAT SIMPLE. There is not any true debate, only anger at changing of the rules that happen to disadvantage some people.

 

When one reads the entire entry for psy-bolt ammo, there is a clear-as-day example as to what happens to a weapon's strength:

 

"E.g. an assault cannon would be Strength 7, rather than Strength 6, if the firer had psybolt ammunition."

 

The rest sorts itself out: bolt pistol, boltgun, storm bolter, and hurricane bolter would be Strength 5, rather than Strength 4; heavy bolters would be Strength 6, rather than 5; autocannons would be Strength 8, rather than Strength 7. This is their base strength. Again, it can't get any simpler than that.

 

weapon stays str 4 until it shoots, its shots are resolved at str 5 for wounding/penetration.

This makes no sense and adds nothing but confusion.

[Hapless]

As they are now Strength 5, they are now Normal weapons instead of Defensive weapons; Defensive weapons are defined as Strength 4 or less, while normal weapons are Strength 5 or higher. It's THAT SIMPLE. There is not any true debate, only anger at changing of the rules that happen to disadvantage some people.

 

When one reads the entire entry for psy-bolt ammo, there is a clear-as-day example as to what happens to a weapon's strength:

 

"E.g. an assault cannon would be Strength 7, rather than Strength 6, if the firer had psybolt ammunition."

 

The rest sorts itself out: bolt pistol, boltgun, storm bolter, and hurricane bolter would be Strength 5, rather than Strength 4; heavy bolters would be Strength 6, rather than 5; autocannons would be Strength 8, rather than Strength 7. This is their base strength. Again, it can't get any simpler than that.

 

weapon stays str 4 until it shoots, its shots are resolved at str 5 for wounding/penetration.

This makes no sense and adds nothing but confusion.

I have to agree with you there. Ocam's(sp?) Razor and all, the simplest explination is most often the correct one. And this seems to me to be the simpliest explination. Sadly this does discourage me from takeing the psybolt ammo, but then again it is a fast vehicle so maybe it is worth it, but for 20 points I still have to wonder.

[Prathios]

As they are now Strength 5, they are now Normal weapons instead of Defensive weapons; Defensive weapons are defined as Strength 4 or less, while normal weapons are Strength 5 or higher. It's THAT SIMPLE. There is not any true debate, only anger at changing of the rules that happen to disadvantage some people.

 

When one reads the entire entry for psy-bolt ammo, there is a clear-as-day example as to what happens to a weapon's strength:

 

"E.g. an assault cannon would be Strength 7, rather than Strength 6, if the firer had psybolt ammunition."

 

The rest sorts itself out: bolt pistol, boltgun, storm bolter, and hurricane bolter would be Strength 5, rather than Strength 4; heavy bolters would be Strength 6, rather than 5; autocannons would be Strength 8, rather than Strength 7. This is their base strength. Again, it can't get any simpler than that.

 

weapon stays str 4 until it shoots, its shots are resolved at str 5 for wounding/penetration.

This makes no sense and adds nothing but confusion.

I have to agree with you there. Ocam's(sp?) Razor and all, the simplest explination is most often the correct one. And this seems to me to be the simpliest explination. Sadly this does discourage me from takeing the psybolt ammo, but then again it is a fast vehicle so maybe it is worth it, but for 20 points I still have to wonder.

 

I disagree that you think this is the simplest explanation. If asked my opinion on the topic without any rule books to quote in front of me I would simply have said the idea that changing the ammo causes the gun to cease to be defensive is preposterous. So the fact that you have to scrutinize the rules causes the above explanation to be, IMO, more complicated. The most logical and simplest thought process I think falls to the other camp. But ultimately as I said before I would like this defined in an FAQ.

[Hapless]

As they are now Strength 5, they are now Normal weapons instead of Defensive weapons; Defensive weapons are defined as Strength 4 or less, while normal weapons are Strength 5 or higher. It's THAT SIMPLE. There is not any true debate, only anger at changing of the rules that happen to disadvantage some people.

 

When one reads the entire entry for psy-bolt ammo, there is a clear-as-day example as to what happens to a weapon's strength:

 

"E.g. an assault cannon would be Strength 7, rather than Strength 6, if the firer had psybolt ammunition."

 

The rest sorts itself out: bolt pistol, boltgun, storm bolter, and hurricane bolter would be Strength 5, rather than Strength 4; heavy bolters would be Strength 6, rather than 5; autocannons would be Strength 8, rather than Strength 7. This is their base strength. Again, it can't get any simpler than that.

 

weapon stays str 4 until it shoots, its shots are resolved at str 5 for wounding/penetration.

This makes no sense and adds nothing but confusion.

I have to agree with you there. Ocam's(sp?) Razor and all, the simplest explination is most often the correct one. And this seems to me to be the simpliest explination. Sadly this does discourage me from takeing the psybolt ammo, but then again it is a fast vehicle so maybe it is worth it, but for 20 points I still have to wonder.

 

I disagree that you think this is the simplest explanation. If asked my opinion on the topic without any rule books to quote in front of me I would simply have said the idea that changing the ammo causes the gun to cease to be defensive is preposterous. So the fact that you have to scrutinize the rules causes the above explanation to be, IMO, more complicated. The most logical and simplest thought process I think falls to the other camp. But ultimately as I said before I would like this defined in an FAQ.

Remember your thinking of Real world application. Yes in the real world I would agree. Sadly this is a game played by a set of rules, that have been defined. Bear with me please.

Which of these sounds like the simple explication.

Explination 1: This upgrade increases your strength by 1.

Explination 2: This upgrade increases your strength by 1, but only when rolling for damage or for armor penitration.

[Inquisitor Apropos]

I think of it this way:

20 pts for a Twin Linked Str 6 Heavy Bolter, and a twin linked Psycannon.

Then decide if you really need the 6 Twin Linked Str 5 Bolters, for extra infantry extermination. Only against Nids, Orks, or foot IG. And it's not like you don't have plenty of anti-infantry dakka already.

 

Personally, I'd drop the HB for Typhoons, and swap the AssCan for either a TL Lascannon or a TL Plasmacannon, depending on whether I thought I'd need more tank popping or more heavy infantry popping. The Typhoons complement both well, and can be fired as 'defensive' frag missiles as needed. Actually, Typhoon+Plasma/AssCan+Hurricanes is probably your best anti-horde set up, since you can fire it 'on the move'.

[ghostofBobbyLee]

I would like to point out the example of the Landspeeder/Stormraven with Typhoon Missile Launcher; if you fire Krak Missiles (Strength 8) it is not defensive, if you fire Frag Missiles (Strength 4) it is defensive. Seems clear to me that psybolt ammunition is intended to raise the Strength of the weapon by +1. What do you expect to get for a 5 point upgrade anyway?

[Seahawk]

So the fact that you have to scrutinize the rules causes the above explanation to be, IMO, more complicated.

I'm not scrutinizing anything, I'm merely stating that the second sentence in the psy-bolt ammunition rule explains away any confusion through its clear example. As stated, you cannot say the ammo adds +1 to the weapons' strength "when rolling to wound/penetrate." The rule does not say that. The rule says you add +1 to the weapons' strength, period.

 

What do you expect to get for a 5 point upgrade anyway?

It's a 20-point upgrade for the Raven, making it 50 points for that and the hurricane bolters. Not exactly cheap!

[RedemptionNL]

I would like to point out the example of the Landspeeder/Stormraven with Typhoon Missile Launcher; if you fire Krak Missiles (Strength 8) it is not defensive, if you fire Frag Missiles (Strength 4) it is defensive. Seems clear to me that psybolt ammunition is intended to raise the Strength of the weapon by +1. What do you expect to get for a 5 point upgrade anyway?

 

It's 20 points actually, but yeah, I also think weapons raised to S5 no longer count as defensive.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I do get sick and tired of people trying to fudge the rules to milk cheese. First it's people trying to claim a dreadknight with a personal teleport isn't an MC anymore so can fit into a Raven.

 

Now it's hurricanes. psybolt ammo makes a the bolters str5, str5+ means no defensive fire, it's simple.

[Something Wycked]

This has been a hotly debated point in other posts with those very much for and against the issue. I have a hard time taking away the defensive rule as the weapon has not changed the ammo has. Realistically a weapon in real life does not change a bit because of the ammo. Only the ammo changed so it just seems silly to me that the weapon would change. Granted I see the argument from both sides. Personally I wouldn't take away the defensive weapon rule though.

Actually, you're wrong there. "Realistically in real life", if you use different ammunition in a weapon, the characteristics of that weapon do change.

 

Easiest example would be a shotgun. Compare shot rounds to slugs- shot has next to no recoil and excellent spread. Fire a slug out of the same weapon, and there is no spread and a heck of a lot more kick. There's essentially the same amount of gunpowder in the shell, but the mass of the shell makes it recoil much heavier.

 

Next example would be a .38 revolver. .38 and .357 are so close as to be able to be fired out of the same weapon, but the .38 shells have fairly standard ballistic characteristics while the .357 is a magnum round and can be a real pain to fire due to the increased recoil.

 

Both examples would be a great demonstration of increasing the "strength" of a weapon, and making it harder to handle, losing their "defensive" qualities.

 

More onto the original question and actual rules mechanics... The only weapons that fire with variable strengths are described as such in their rules entries, with very specific details as to how they work. All other weapons are a very specific strength score when firing, and do not change in the step between rolling to hit and rolling to wound.

 

Arguing that Hurricane Bolters are Strength 4 when you roll to hit to gain the Defensive quality and suddenly Strength 5 when you roll to wound is the worst sort of cheese. Its either strength 5 when you fire it or its strength 4 when you fire it, and it stays that strength not just for the entire shooting phase, but it stays that way for the entire game.

 

If you take psybolt ammo, Hurricane Bolters are no longer defensive weapons, period.

[Angelis Mortis]

I would like to point out the example of the Landspeeder/Stormraven with Typhoon Missile Launcher; if you fire Krak Missiles (Strength 8) it is not defensive, if you fire Frag Missiles (Strength 4) it is defensive. Seems clear to me that psybolt ammunition is intended to raise the Strength of the weapon by +1. What do you expect to get for a 5 point upgrade anyway?

 

And this is the reason why I hope in 6th Edition, the make defensive weapon a special rule such as gets hot!, rapid fire, assault, etc. It would simplify things even further.

[Techmarine Harkus]

Actually, you're wrong there. "Realistically in real life", if you use different ammunition in a weapon, the characteristics of that weapon do change.

 

Easiest example would be a shotgun. Compare shot rounds to slugs- shot has next to no recoil and excellent spread. Fire a slug out of the same weapon, and there is no spread and a heck of a lot more kick. There's essentially the same amount of gunpowder in the shell, but the mass of the shell makes it recoil much heavier.

 

Because I'm a tool I have to point out... slugs and shells are the same mass. The mass of the rounds fired is the definition of guage. Slugs have a higher recoil because of the increaced overpressure one solid round causes vs several smaller ones. Shot is hardly recoilless unless you're speaking comparitively. What you were getting at still stands though.

 

Sorry...

 

I dont think real world examples of why hurricane bolters with psybolt ammo should/not be defensive weapons. You can argue that making them S5 would increace the recoil and make it less able to shoot while the vehicle is in motion... but I don't see what that has to do with what is written in the rules for a tabletop game. Likeness to real life isn't exactly 40k's strongest point... IRL a Challenger II tank can travel some 60mph on a road while firing its main gun at a target moving parallel to it. In 40k you aren't even alowed to shoot a peashooter if you go past 10mph.

 

I think it really is as simple as: Defensive weapons are those of strength 4 or less. Thats true for every vehicle in the game. By saying oh, my GK vehicles can fire strength 5 as defensive seems like an unfair benefit. You are firing strength 5 weapons where others would not be able to. And your reasoning behind it is because the guns base profile is S4. Well you arent firing its base profile.

 

The typhoon missile launcher example is a very good example of how one weapon can fire in two different ways, one being defensive and the other main.

 

The above lines of argument is solid. There are no flawes and no dodgey interpretation. The comparison to typhoon missiles is not a perfect example but it is definitely relevant.

 

If I were now to say they are still defensive because "...count the strength of it's shots one point higher..." implies by the use of the word 'count' that it's not solid enough compared to saying 'makes' insead... Then you are playing with the specific wording to draw your conclusion. Analysing specific wording can be important, but when its a specific word not words, it tends to mean you are trying to bend something. If I were to say 'counts as a powerfist' that would mean... doubling your strength, ignoring armor saves and striking at I1... Do the attacks cause instant death at the new strength? Um, yes. It's all part of what 'counting as' something implies. Being one point higher in S dosen't stop me being a defensive weapon, as long as It's still S4 or less, because thats the definition of defensive weapons.