BA background - "Renaissance" based

[alfred_the_great]

Am I right in thinking the BA are based around a Renaissance archtype?

[Tabgoi]

I think you are getting a lot of veiws and not a lot of posts because this has been covered several times in the past. I'd try a search of the subforum and you can find a few threads on this topic with a lot of really good input. But short answer would be that the Renaissance is but one of the influences that seems to be prominant in our chapter.

[AGPO]

No harm in discussing things afresh. :P Each of the Space Marine chapters has an archetype as far as its model range goes, something that's become more prominent as they've gained their own codexes and ranges. The Ultramarines are classical (Jes gets annoyed if you call them 'Romans' or 'Greeks,' The Templars are Medieval knights/crusaders, the Dark Angels are monks and the Space Wolves are Vikings. In this regard yes Blood Angels are renaissance - their banners and artwork speak of the classical revivalist and realist movements, whilst the angelic motifs are typical of the sculptures of the era.

 

In their fluff however, they suit different archetypes, depending on the era you are looking at. The tragic heroes, the damned soul, the fallen angel and the vampire have all featured to a greater or lesser extent to describe the blood angels.

[Leksington]

I often wonder why people associate the BA with the renaissance. Personally I don't get it. I don't see the BA as particularly humanist in their views, nor do I see an emphasis on a return to the classics. Where is it written that BA spend more time discussing logic, math, law, grammar, theology, moral philosophy, etc. than other chapters? Being among the first to accept the Codex Astartes as canon doesn't strike me as profoundly free thinking.

 

If it is merely because BA marines are good at both Art and Soldiering, I'm calling shenanigans.

[Tabgoi]

If you will remember, the reason teh BAs accepted the Codex so readily was that they had just lost their Primarch and the Emperor, and were without leadership and guidance for the first time in their history. The looked to the codex as a way to stabilize themselves by adhering to a very regimented structure as a way to counteract the chaos they saw all around themselves. When you feel like you are drowning you will latch on to any floatation device you can find, even if it comes from the leader of the Ultra smurfs. A lot of the reasons why people feel they are renasaince based is the Renassaince has a very modern outlook, which the Blood Angels share. Most Astartes have a post modern outlook. Also, look at the names of our characters and the surface of Baal. If they do not invoke imagery of Dante's Inferno set in the far future I am not sure what will. Plus early on the Blood Angels were flat out refered to as vampires in space, and while much of the romance surround vampires was born out of the victorian era, it traces its roots to the renassaince and the increased interest in the legends and fables of other cultures, a big departure from the previous isolation and distrust of other lands. Or you could go with all the fluff that compares them directly to renassaince ideals, mentioning how the BAs themselves look like the statues that came from that period, the focus on artistry, things of this nature. Soldiering really does not come into it because most people think of the renassaince think of Italy. Also, there are several sources (granted this is third edition fluff, not fifth) that state the Blood Angels are far more catious around civillian populations then other Chapters and that they attempt to minimize civillian casualties when possible as they see their role as being that of the protectors of humanity guiding them to a better futrure that Sanguinius saw for them. Its part of why they see the Black Rage and Red Thirst as such a horrible curse because it causes all of their lofty ideals to go straight out the window. A lot of how you see the Blood Angels will depend on what edition you started playing them because each really has a different focus. Second edition was vampires, third was more renassaince, and fifth plays up the angelic side.

[daboarder]

I often wonder why people associate the BA with the renaissance. Personally I don't get it. I don't see the BA as particularly humanist in their views, nor do I see an emphasis on a return to the classics. Where is it written that BA spend more time discussing logic, math, law, grammar, theology, moral philosophy, etc. than other chapters? Being among the first to accept the Codex Astartes as canon doesn't strike me as profoundly free thinking.

 

If it is merely because BA marines are good at both Art and Soldiering, I'm calling shenanigans.

 

The names and artistic bent/armour are the big give away. They were hallmarks of the enlightenment.

[Leksington]

The names and artistic bent/armour are the big give away. They were hallmarks of the enlightenment.

I'm not sure what you mean by "artistic bent/armor." And the enlightenment came well after the renaissance period. Names like Gabriel and Dante are both fairly popular names even today.

[daboarder]

actually the enlightentment IS the enaisance, their different names for the same period. as for the names. its who the names are refrenbces to that counts.

 

Dante: a refrence to Dante Alighieri author of the poem Inferno. A great read by the way I highly recomend it.

 

Tycho: Tycho brahe one of the early astronomers who was arguably as influential to his time as Galileo or Copernicus.

 

Mephiston and lemartes are both reference to well known archetypes of the times. ie: Mephistopheles.

 

As for the armour, most armour during the renaissance was designed as much for ceremonial dress as tactical advantage.

[Leksington]

A lot of the reasons why people feel they are renasaince based is the Renassaince has a very modern outlook, which the Blood Angels share. Most Astartes have a post modern outlook. Also, look at the names of our characters and the surface of Baal. If they do not invoke imagery of Dante's Inferno set in the far future I am not sure what will. Plus early on the Blood Angels were flat out refered to as vampires in space, and while much of the romance surround vampires was born out of the victorian era, it traces its roots to the renassaince and the increased interest in the legends and fables of other cultures, a big departure from the previous isolation and distrust of other lands. Or you could go with all the fluff that compares them directly to renassaince ideals, mentioning how the BAs themselves look like the statues that came from that period, the focus on artistry, things of this nature.

-What is a post-modern outlook as apposed to a modern outlook? When you throw in post-modern I immediately associate the two with the art movements, neither of which have anything to do with the renaissance.

-What do renaissance statues look like? They look like beautiful people. That the Blood Angels look like beautifuly sculpted people doesn't make them renaissance.

-I can see the names from Dante's Inferno, but I see none of the theological discussion. It is the theological discussion in Dante's Divine Comedy that makes it renaissance, not the names of the characters.

 

It is easy to see an association with vampires: Born of the primarch's blood, lots of time sleeping in sarcophagi, blood lust fueled madness, live longer lives than other marines, beautiful, tragically flawed. Renaissance connection aren't so obviously clear. I feel like I could take any chapter and make a loose argument that they are renaissance.

 

And wouldn't you say that the BA brand of vampirism is more associated with contemporary views of vampires (anne rice) rather than the pre-victorian fables that influenced a victorian era view of vampires?

[Leksington]

actually the enlightentment IS the enaisance, their different names for the same period. as for the names. its who the names are refrenbces to that counts.

 

Dante: a refrence to Dante Alighieri author of the poem Inferno. A great read by the way I highly recomend it.

 

Tycho: Tycho brahe one of the early astronomers who was arguably as influential to his time as Galileo or Copernicus.

 

Mephiston and lemartes are both reference to well known archetypes of the times. ie: Mephistopheles.

 

As for the armour, most armour during the renaissance was designed as much for ceremonial dress as tactical advantage.

Renaissance is 14th through 17th centuries. The Age of Enlightenment is rooted in the 18th century.

 

I have a friend named Dante. Tycho is a brand of toys. To say Mephiston is of the Faustian Mephistopheles is to tread dangerous territory. Faust is the story of a deal with the devil. If we are indeed invoking the Faust story, then we are overtly saying that yes, Mephiston made a deal with a demon. :P

 

Again if it is only the names that come from the renaissance, but none of the things that made the renaissance the renaissance, I'm calling shenanigans.

 

BA power armor looks a lot like the power armor of other chapters. And if you look at other marine chapters you'll find character as ornamented, if not more ornamented than BA characters. :P

[robot530]

I think the BA follow a specific historical trend echoing early Western crisis cults through the Renaissance into the Enlightenment. Of course it is a completely twisted version of it but the motifs and references are there. The sacraficed son, the blood, the grail, etc. It really does go on and on. The vampire is an inversion of those traditions; the tradgedy of the Chapter, why their souls are in danger. BA are most concerned of the Chapters with their own damnation from within. Dante is not named after someones buddy, Tycho is not named after a toy company, and Meph seems to be dealing with demonic temptations.

 

The Renaissance was the rediscovery of lost greek thought (Aristotle, Ultra) from non-Western sources, escaping from the Dark Ages (BTemplars). It makes sense that the BA would use the Codex as a starting point to stucture the spiritual crisis within the Chapter. They also look to science/biology as a potential cure through the use of the Sanguinarian priesthood (ha!).

[daboarder]

What he said

[Tabgoi]

A lot of the reasons why people feel they are renasaince based is the Renassaince has a very modern outlook, which the Blood Angels share. Most Astartes have a post modern outlook. Also, look at the names of our characters and the surface of Baal. If they do not invoke imagery of Dante's Inferno set in the far future I am not sure what will. Plus early on the Blood Angels were flat out refered to as vampires in space, and while much of the romance surround vampires was born out of the victorian era, it traces its roots to the renassaince and the increased interest in the legends and fables of other cultures, a big departure from the previous isolation and distrust of other lands. Or you could go with all the fluff that compares them directly to renassaince ideals, mentioning how the BAs themselves look like the statues that came from that period, the focus on artistry, things of this nature.

-What is a post-modern outlook as apposed to a modern outlook? When you throw in post-modern I immediately associate the two with the art movements, neither of which have anything to do with the renaissance.

-What do renaissance statues look like? They look like beautiful people. That the Blood Angels look like beautifuly sculpted people doesn't make them renaissance.

-I can see the names from Dante's Inferno, but I see none of the theological discussion. It is the theological discussion in Dante's Divine Comedy that makes it renaissance, not the names of the characters.

 

It is easy to see an association with vampires: Born of the primarch's blood, lots of time sleeping in sarcophagi, blood lust fueled madness, live longer lives than other marines, beautiful, tragically flawed. Renaissance connection aren't so obviously clear. I feel like I could take any chapter and make a loose argument that they are renaissance.

 

And wouldn't you say that the BA brand of vampirism is more associated with contemporary views of vampires (anne rice) rather than the pre-victorian fables that influenced a victorian era view of vampires?

 

A modern outlook is basically one that believes tomorrow will be better than today. It is a positive outlook where our children will have a better life than we have. A post modern outlook believes the best days are behind us and things are destined to get worse. Pretty common terms.

 

Each period of art has different emphasis on different proportions. Off the top of my head I cannot tell you the what the proportions for each period are, but they have different ratios of hips to waist to stomach to chest to shoulder down to head size based on what the ideal of beauty is at the time. This has changed dramatically throughout history. Women who we see at fat now were at one time the essence of perfection. Go figure.

 

If you do not see the link to Dante's Inferno I have to guess you have only read the James Swallows and Matt Ward fluff, which is pretty weak stuff. It may be technically "renegade" now as it goes pretty far away from the new fluff (mostly in terms of the Red Thirst and Black Rage), but read the Blood Quest comics.

 

I said victorian era as the main influence in terms of vamprism which was all about a sorid release of untamed passion as at the time everyone was so bottled up. Think of it along the lines of the Red Thirst and the Black Rage as an uncontrolled release of deep desires that penetrate their normal reserve and stoic demeanor. Anne Rice by the way writes her vampire stories in the "Gothic" style. This is a reference to art forms prevalent in the 12th to 15th centuries in Northern Europe. The Victorian period refers to the reign of Queen Victoria or 1837 to 1901 and is known for being a major point of revival for the gothic styles of architecture, arts and liturature. Also, if you check any interveiws given by Anne Rice she will list books like Wuthering Heights and other victorian novels as inspiration. Basically by invoking her you were saying I was spot on.

[alfred_the_great]

Well, that told me!

 

Cheers, sorry about not doing a search first....

[Gv0zD]

I'd like to add my few cents to this discussion.

 

There are certain traits that link BA to late-medieval Italy or Renaissance age.

 

Italy was among the best producers of plate armor alongside Germany, hence the two most popular schools - Milanese and Gothic. BA have their Sanguiary Guard wear such 'artificer' armor, which is better than regular suits, looks better and overall reminds of Renaissance era statues.

 

One of the most powerful Italian city states was Venice that used red and golden lion as their coat of arms. BA use those colors as major in their color scheme and iconography.

 

The Venitian carnival - a cultural event that involves wearing different sorts of masks. BA use the death masks to represent their grief for the lost primarch and employ them to instill fear upon their enemies.

 

Names. No need to repeat the previous posters.

 

The desire to change thing to good. Turning a tribal barbarian (in general sense) to perfect demi-god being is the ultimate goal most Renaissance era philosophers and scientists strived to achieve (although not iterally, they spoke of mental transformation, in case of BA we have both mental and physical).

 

Angels. The symbol of Catholic religion and the related art. BA are angels themselves, they use the angelic images on thier banners, tanks, shoulder pads etc etc.

 

So there are more than plenty of evident references to Renaissace and Medieval Italy. The vampiric theme is somerhing other, but since the first well-known vampire descended from South-eastern Europe, which was also influenced by Medieval Italy, one can find similarites here as well.

 

-EDIT-

Typos. Lots of typos :)

[Tabgoi]

Nice points Gv0zd.

[SevenExxes]

I feel that the Blood Angels remind me of The Roman Empire after they embraced Christianity.

Sanguinius was the son of the Emperor and he died.

Jesus was the son of God and he died.

The Red Grail is the symbol of Sanquinius like the cross is for Jesus.

But the Red Grail also represents the blood of Sanguinius like the Catholic ceremony of drinking red wine that represents the blood of Christ.

The armour with the emphasis on red and gold resembles the Legionnaires to some degree.

[Gv0zD]

Nice points Gv0zd.

Thanks! :)

[robot530]

Gv0zD: Nice examples.

 

A note on the vampire: The vampire has been associated as a symbol of the antichrist. Instead of mortal men drinking the blood and eating the flesh of a supernatural being to achieve salvation/eternal life after death, the vampire is a supernatural being who drinks the blood and eats the flesh of mortal beings to achieve eternal death in unlife in the physical world.

 

Duality seems to be inherent in western thought. Descartes was a good Catholic who tried to connect the dual nature of man as intellect/material. In the end his argument became an appeal to the goodness of God. Descartes opened up a huge field of thought in the fields of science and especially biology, much of that thought coming out of the Enlightenment. I think this can all be viewed as on topic because yes the BA are very influenced by Renaissance concepts. They are a crisis cult suffering from a physical/spiritual existence involving ritual blood drinking/flesh eating. They address this crisis through both ritual spiritual practice as well as physical scientific investigation.

 

Even when they're swinging chainswords and attached to jump packs the thirst and the rage are there encroaching on the meridians of their minds threatening with spiritual madness.

[Leksington]

I'd like to add my few cents to this discussion.

 

There are certain traits that link BA to late-medieval Italy or Renaissance age.

 

Italy was among the best producers of plate armor alongside Germany, hence the two most popular schools - Milanese and Gothic. BA have their Sanguiary Guard wear such 'artificer' armor, which is better than regular suits, looks better and overall reminds of Renaissance era statues.

 

One of the most powerful Italian city states was Venice that used red and golden lion as their coat of arms. BA use those colors as major in their color scheme and iconography.

 

The Venitian carnival - a cultural event that involves wearing different sorts of masks. BA use the death masks to represent their grief for the lost primarch and employ them to instill fear upon their enemies.

 

Names. No need to repeat the previous posters.

 

The desire to change thing to good. Turning a tribal barbarian (in general sense) to perfect demi-god being is the ultimate goal most Renaissance era philosophers and scientists strived to achieve (although not iterally, they spoke of mental transformation, in case of BA we have both mental and physical).

 

Angels. The symbol of Catholic religion and the related art. BA are angels themselves, they use the angelic images on thier banners, tanks, shoulder pads etc etc.

 

So there are more than plenty of evident references to Renaissace and Medieval Italy. The vampiric theme is somerhing other, but since the first well-known vampire descended from South-eastern Europe, which was also influenced by Medieval Italy, one can find similarites here as well.

 

-EDIT-

Typos. Lots of typos :D

If I were to write an essay describing the renaissance era it's innovations and it's importance, there is not a single thing you listed that would make my description.

 

-You say the BA's use of Artificer Armor is a reference to the rennaisance. Vanilla Marines seem to have much more access to artificer armor, in this regard making them a better renaissance candidate. Vanilla Marines' Captains and HG have access to Artificer Armor while their BA equivalent do not. It is also worth noting that there are only 30 SG total. And I'll point out there is not a single renaissance statue that looks anything like the armor worn by SG.

-There have been powerful nations throughout history that have used red and gold. Are the Washington Redskins of the renaissance? Surely no.

-I'll give you that the death mask do seem to be a nod to renaissance era masks. But that is a pretty weak link and there is not a historian in the world that would suggest that masquerade masks were significant in defining the the renaissance era.

-Names are a pretty weak link. If I changed the name of every person who lived in the renaissance era, would it no longer be the renaissance era? If I changed the name of every currently living person to something that was common in Italy in the 15th century would we call the world today the renaissance era? No and no.

-Conversion of Barbarians to Christianity is more associated with the 4th-7th centuries. It certainly wasn't a developmen of, nor a nod to, the renaissance era.

-Angelic Iconography is much much older than the renaissance. I'd say most of the BA art that is presented to us is pre-renaissance. The most iconic artistic development of the renaissance was a realistic sense of perspective; a move from paintings that looked 2d to paintings that represented 3d. Look at BA banners, look at the BA avatars we have here. Very 2d and indicative of a period before the renaissance.

 

 

You have a handful of names with italian or biblical origin, and the death masks. Everything else you listed points away from the renaissance, not towards it. No artistic trends of the renaissance, not theological trends of the renaissance, no educational trends of the renaissance, no political or government trands of the renaissance. A name and a costume does not a renaissance era make.

[Leksington]

A modern outlook is basically one that believes tomorrow will be better than today. It is a positive outlook where our children will have a better life than we have. A post modern outlook believes the best days are behind us and things are destined to get worse. Pretty common terms.

 

Each period of art has different emphasis on different proportions. Off the top of my head I cannot tell you the what the proportions for each period are, but they have different ratios of hips to waist to stomach to chest to shoulder down to head size based on what the ideal of beauty is at the time. This has changed dramatically throughout history. Women who we see at fat now were at one time the essence of perfection. Go figure.

 

If you do not see the link to Dante's Inferno I have to guess you have only read the James Swallows and Matt Ward fluff, which is pretty weak stuff. It may be technically "renegade" now as it goes pretty far away from the new fluff (mostly in terms of the Red Thirst and Black Rage), but read the Blood Quest comics.

 

I said victorian era as the main influence in terms of vamprism which was all about a sorid release of untamed passion as at the time everyone was so bottled up. Think of it along the lines of the Red Thirst and the Black Rage as an uncontrolled release of deep desires that penetrate their normal reserve and stoic demeanor. Anne Rice by the way writes her vampire stories in the "Gothic" style. This is a reference to art forms prevalent in the 12th to 15th centuries in Northern Europe. The Victorian period refers to the reign of Queen Victoria or 1837 to 1901 and is known for being a major point of revival for the gothic styles of architecture, arts and liturature. Also, if you check any interveiws given by Anne Rice she will list books like Wuthering Heights and other victorian novels as inspiration. Basically by invoking her you were saying I was spot on.

I appreciate your clarification of what you meant by post modern. I'm not sure what a positive or negative outlook on the future has to do with the renaissance. You suggested that that BA had the positive outlook. How does that mesh with an embracing of greek tragedies and a more realistic view depiction of the world?

 

Yes, Mannerist depicted elongated body parts (especially necks legs and arms), Baroque art was often interested in negative space and lighting, etc. All of these were depicting beautiful and ideal looking people. Of course someone writing about BA is going to reference the art period with the proportinally correct depictions. If I created a fictional culture with beautiful people and based around late 19th century culture, I would still reference statues by michaelangelo. A reference to a Picasso or Monet painting wouldn't be indicative of their good looks, despite the art period being appropriate.

 

It is all fine and good that you are referencing gothic, and victorian, but the renaissance was marked more by an embracing of the greek culture, not franco-germanic cultures. To say that the BA are gothic isn't at all synonymous with saying that they are of the renaissance.

[Gv0zD]

@ Lexington.

 

Man, this is scifi game, not an academic thesis dedicated to history and philosophy. Don't be too literal about it. You find no philosophical evidence of Renaissance? It is ok. The Space Wolves don't worship Scandinavian pagan gods, so they are not 'Space Vikings' anymore, is it so? The Black Templars don't crusade in a name of Christ, so they are in no way 'Templars', right?

 

There are esthetical references to Renaissance-era Italy, not to Renaissance era itself, and those reference are mostly exterior, as with most cultural references in this game.

 

All in all, you just do not agree with me, I'm ok with it.

[SevenExxes]

The Japanese Samurai used War Masks to strike fear into the hearts and minds of their enemies.

Japanese War Mask = Death Mask

 

Blood Angels are Samurai, yo!

 

Christian Samurai Renaissance Warriors

[Rybnick]

The Japanese Samurai used War Masks to strike fear into the hearts and minds of their enemies.

Japanese War Mask = Death Mask

 

Blood Angels are Samurai, yo!

 

Christian Samurai Renaissance Warriors

The Glaive Encarmine could draw a further parallel to the Japanese Samurai, although 2 handed swords are certainly not exclusive to the BA we do have our own "brand name" 2 hander.

 

Basically what it boils down to is that most fluff for Space Marine armies BA included can be traced back to multiple periods of human history and none is more right or wrong than another. Personally I identify my BA more with the Renaissance period than any other, but that's just my opinion.

[Brother Chris]

Fascinating discussion.

 

I don't think GW went into such great detail when 40K was being designed. It favoured quasi medieval fantasy, as D&D popularised, and its historical games were very light touch - Blood Royal was not a particularly accurate representation of the 14th century, for instance.

 

The Space Marines are sort of Medieval knights. The Ultramarines are at the 'Roman Empire after it adopted Christianity' end of the spectrum, Space wolves a little bit later, maybe vikings of the 10th century. Black templars are Teutonic knights of the high middle ages, say around 1270s, the same time period the Bretonnians represent. The Grey Knights are wars of the Roses, late 15th century, or more specifically Arthurian Romances set then or their pre-raphaelite interpretation. In my view, the blood angels come at the very end of the spectrum. They are the knights of the Italian renaissance, not unlike the era the Empire represents in Warhammer, closer to early 16th century. Erasmus and Mephistopheles are characters of that period. Tycho is probably mistakenly believed to be in that era (He followed on from Copernicus, who was, but with a gap in time. I think the designers wrongly associated Dante with the period (He being a quintessentially Italian renaissance character). The real Dracula just clipped it.

 

The renaissance is strong connected to Art, and to the idea of all round excellence, the renaissance man, hence BA are additionally skilled in the arts. Sanguinius is modelled on Italian Renaissance images of the Archangel St Michael.

 

Now in reality there is a lot more to be said about the real renaissance and a lot of ways in which the Blood Angels do not correspond with this reality, but if you think in terms of GW's limited impression of this period, I think it is pretty clear that was what they were trying to convey.