BA background - "Renaissance" based

[shatter]

Lets drop the analysis of geopolitics and get back into plastic and BA aesthetics. While interesting the views, I find too much inaccuracy, cultural bias and naivety in general for folks to be happy with each others statements of opinion and this just aint the place.

 

To me, BA clearly had inspiration sourced from the character evident in Italy's contribution to European evolution; from art and religion to militarism and nationalism and the tragedy that the human condition makes them so intertwined and often so indistinguishable. Seriously, while glorious to the aficionado, it is all pure horror and a worthy contribution to the reflection of man that is the satirical heart of our beloved grim-darkery. You guys know that while Italy never had a lock on the concept of angels and devils, it is their stylization input that has the strongest resonance within 'a typical western mindset', whatever that means.

[JamesI]

Lets drop the analysis of geopolitics and get back into plastic and BA aesthetics. While interesting the views, I find too much inaccuracy, cultural bias and naivety in general for folks to be happy with each others statements of opinion and this just aint the place.

shatter is absolutely correct here.

 

The B+C is not the place to debate American Military versus French Military or what wars were "useless" or not. Real world politics has no place on this board.

 

Many posts have been removed from this thread, and I am going through it to see if any further action is necessary.

 

Keep to the topic at hand and if you feel someone has gone off topic or posted something insulting rather than respond in kind, press the report button.

 

Thank you,

JamesI.

[1Drop]

Some very interesting stuff here, I haven't read the whole thread as I feel I have gotten what I can from the discussion and don't really have anything to add but still, I can see alot of the similaritys mentioned.

[Leksington]

@ Lexington.

 

Man, this is scifi game, not an academic thesis dedicated to history and philosophy.

Here is where I'd say you hit the nail on the head.

 

This is a fictional culture set in a fictional future. Why do we see just a little bit of iconography and then feel so compelled to pigeonhole that fiction into a historical period? Are we so unable to understand the BA culture without trying to cram it into a poorly fitting paradigm?

 

If working under the premise that the BA are of the Renaissance helps you understand and enjoy the BA, then by all means continue. But a humanist philosophy and return to greek classics are what made the renaissance the renaissance. So for me, applying this poorly fitting label only serves to cloud and confuse the culture of the Blood Angels.

[Leksington]

To me, BA clearly had inspiration sourced from the character evident in Italy's contribution to European evolution; from art and religion to militarism and nationalism and the tragedy that the human condition makes them so intertwined and often so indistinguishable.

I'd tend to agree, but I point out that the art, religion and military aspects of the BA are all drawn from the pre-renaissance Italy. If I was forced to pick a period in history I'd point towards around the 5th century or so; around the fall of the roman empire. (I'd might go further and suggest that most of the 40k world reflects significant aspects of the fall of the roman empire). BA: Italian-ish? Yes. Of the renaissance? No.

 

5th Century

-Adoption of relatively new religious docterine

-Conversion of barbarians

-The art is appropriate to this period

-Autocratic

-Military structure closer to legions rather than a feudal set up.

-Invading hordes

 

As apposed to

 

Renaissance

-Deathmasks ^_^

 

To throw you renaissance lovers a bone, the chapter that is most likely to evolve and eventually lead to a renaissance among Space Marines, would probably be the Blood Angels. B)

[daboarder]

See the thing is your looking at it post internet revolution. As such your average person now days knows far more about the renaissance than a bunch of blokes making games in the early 90's did. Back then they probably had only a passing knowledge of what actually happened and therefore based the BA on the renaissance as portrayed in encyclopedia Britannica.

[robot530]

Lexington: Agreed. I wasn't quite sure of your opinion on it all with your beginning posts and criticisms. Now that you are offering your views on the matter I think you have a good point.

 

The Dark Ages and the Renaissance are continueing historical periods or trends brought about by the fall of Rome. I see the Heresey as a reflection of this period as well. History repeats.

 

In this context the BA are the chapter that most echo Renaissance ideas and imagery. Sanguinius was a humanitarian, more so then many/most/all of the other Primarchs. The codex says he looked towards a better future for the people of Baal, and then again for humanity once he joined the Crusade. We can look at the Ultras as being political humanitarians as well, but their statesmanship and vast empire, something the BAs lack, keep their fluff in context as GrecoRoman. The BT are stuck in the Crusade era and the Inquisition is the Inquisition. Wolves are heroic barbarians. All the Chapters are these snapshots of historical points and belief systems. Twisted and mashed together and far flung into the far future where the real meat and potatoes of those historical times can be disregarded. Its all artifice and imagination...

 

Edit: I should say the BT embrace the Crusade era!

[shatter]

One thing that to me is pretty obvious yet seems overlooked is that the Renaissance period drew it's inspiration from all of Europe and it's history. It wasn't an age of everything being new, it was more a 'new way' of looking at what it all was about.

To me, Blood Angels are a re-imagining of some ideals that merely came to the fore in this period and those of a Latin bent and much of the symbolism prevalent at the time despite the symbols themselves and the ideas being really quite ancient in origin. The new sculpts however, as my flatmate is fond of telling me, are bordering on latino low-rider art. As for how much of this is true, one would have to ask Juan. :confused: Which, rather seriously here, makes the whole point again for the concept of re-imagining a period's perceived art than a true historical reproduction and so forth.

 

I think this is about as far as it goes, really. And it's not uncommon with regards to other chapters and their respective aesthetics. Ultramarines, for example, to me seems more like the Sun King's court's (A french bloke named Louis) re-imagining of the past glories of Rome and Empire than actual Romans. Check out Sun King on wiki, there's images with him displaying pretty much all the heraldry colours and styles this community attributes to Ultramarines and Classical Europe. (Just had a check and couldn't find the stylised oil of him as a kid, pity as it was perfect for the point with eagles and blue fields and so on)

 

When you get right down to it, it's all a reference to martyrdom for the sins of man, Sanguinius's virtue versus Horus failings. Jesus versus judas. The catholic church was the greatest power in presenting the modern symbols associated... in Italy. The stuff that clouds it are the Gothic & baroque appellations and influences especially evident in plate armour stylisation.

 

And some poor bugger above got criticised for stated the romance of the vampire was a 19th century thing. It was. Before then, their roots existed, of course, but the romance was indeed exactly as he said.

 

 

Edit:

Oh, here he is.

Painting of Louis XIV

[the jeske]

heavy gold used , over hyped stylised armor and weapons . angels and putto[angel stylised servo skulls that look like children]. It is totaly baroque .

 

renesaince and enlightment were all about the return of classic , less embrodiery , pastels , return to the human form without over stylisation etc.