Grey Knight Fever

[Inquisitor Fox]

Mostly because a fair few Space Wolf players aren't retarded. That tactic might work against someone who's played for less than a few weeks, but against any competent Wolf player, their Long Fangs won't be out in the open or easily accessible.

 

In regards to your tactic... Even with three dead Long Fangs, the other two models can still Split Fire, still dropping two Transports per squad, while the Hunters turn and take out the Knight squad with a storm of ungodly-powerful Plasma tidal waves. Great. You've killed three fairly cheap models at the expense of an entire squad, and the Long Fang's anti-armor capacity is only mildly reduced. (Remember; Long Fangs can have five heavy weapons per squad plus one Sarge.)

Retardation has nothing to do with it. For my 'tactic' to work requires me to land within 24" of your Long Fangs and within line of sight, with a single 220 point unit. That doesn't require out in the open or easily accessible, it requires pretty much on the table If the rest of your army now turns to focus fire on a single Strike Squad, the rest of my army is free to advance forward without being shot by your Grey Hunters, maintaining their offensive output because all their weapons are assault weapons.

 

It's easier to pull off than you are implying ;) And pointswise, well.. I think 3 dead heavy weapons models and then three or four squads of fire to wipe mine is a fair trade to keep the rest of my army alive.

[Decoy]

Retardation has nothing to do with it. For my 'tactic' to work requires me to land within 24" of your Long Fangs and within line of sight, with a single 220 point unit. That doesn't require out in the open or easily accessible, it requires pretty much on the table If the rest of your army now turns to focus fire on a single Strike Squad, the rest of my army is free to advance forward without being shot by your Grey Hunters, maintaining their offensive output because all their weapons are assault weapons.

 

It's easier to pull off than you are implying ;) And pointswise, well.. I think 3 dead heavy weapons models and then three or four squads of fire to wipe mine is a fair trade to keep the rest of my army alive.

 

But the Hunters wouldn't be able to shoot your army regardless, seeing as they're out of range. We're losing nothing and gaining an upper hand in terms of what we kill. You lose a squad, we lose three men, while the rest of the long-range (read; three Long Fangs squads, six to ten Razorbacks) can continue to pour firepower downrange. Let's say you kill those three Long Fangs. You've killed -maybe- 100 points worth of models at the expense of a 200 point unit, all while reducing none of the overall efficiency of the Wolf army. That's what you consider a winning proposition?

[Lord Sirrion]

Wow, I've never heard someone so amazingly full of themselves as this Decoy guy. Seriously, GK could never beat a serious intellagent Wolf player? i've never heard a more ridiculous thing in my life. All this is based on your god powered long fangs dropping two transports a turn per unit. Hitting on 3s, getting through an occasional cover save, having to penetrate, then rolling a destroyed result are all just guaranteed right?

 

I also find it amazing how as soon as people get on the internet they become amazing unbeatable players. 40 games with no losses. Right. ;)

 

So thanks for the Wolf-greater-than-GK rant, but we'll have to take your thoughts with about a metric ton of salt.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Wow, I've never heard someone so amazingly full of themselves as this Decoy guy. Seriously, GK could never beat a serious intellagent Wolf player? i've never heard a more ridiculous thing in my life. All this is based on your god powered long fangs dropping two transports a turn per unit. Hitting on 3s, getting through an occasional cover save, having to penetrate, then rolling a destroyed result are all just guaranteed right?

 

I also find it amazing how as soon as people get on the internet they become amazing unbeatable players. 40 games with no losses. Right. ;)

 

So thanks for the Wolf-greater-than-GK rant, but we'll have to take your thoughts with about a metric ton of salt.

 

 

Gotta love the internet, the world where you can be GOD! where your word is LAW! Anybody who disagrees is a RETARD!

 

I do dispair sometimes.

[KnowThyEnemy]

i bet if i started tossing orbital strikes down range to your massively concentrated units, you wouldn't be sitting there pouring fire down range . But i guess its all on how you play. and as for winning, its only half the game. Most Important Rule trumps all. I enjoy killing Long Fangs that are supposedly "well protected and out of the way". Matter of pride and all. Anyway, i guess my point is it seems like you have been playing some pretty unimaginative (see:newbies) players if you've been so dominant with a pretty identical build vs. these tailored lists. kudos on the victories though, undeafeted is always tough. i managed a nice run through the local tourny using crons, but that was more for fun than anything serious.

[Decoy]

Wow, I've never heard someone so amazingly full of themselves as this Decoy guy. Seriously, GK could never beat a serious intellagent Wolf player? i've never heard a more ridiculous thing in my life. All this is based on your god powered long fangs dropping two transports a turn per unit. Hitting on 3s, getting through an occasional cover save, having to penetrate, then rolling a destroyed result are all just guaranteed right? <_<

 

I also find it amazing how as soon as people get on the internet they become amazing unbeatable players. 40 games with no losses. Right. ;)

 

So thanks for the Wolf-greater-than-GK rant, but we'll have to take your thoughts with about a metric ton of salt.

 

 

Oh, not at all. I only run one squad of anti-tank Long Fangs. The rest are Plasmacannons (and have been since 3rd). I rely on my Razorbacks to destroy transports, while leaving Long Fangs to deal with actual threats.

 

I'm not saying results are a sure thing. I've had my fair share of Long Fang flub-ups. However, when you're shooting with anywhere from twelve to seventeen separate Lascannons a turn, you're pretty much set on destroying what you want to destroy. It's all about tactical application of firepower.

 

In regards to being unbeatable, I'm not saying I am. I struggle against certain armies (Namely Eldar variants and Tyranids.) However, seeing as how this is a topic devoted to what army best throws a wrench in the Grey Knight plans, and having played a significant number of games against all variants of Grey Knights, I've found that as a Wolf player, I have nothing to fear from them. They're Marines with better rules but fewer bodies, nothing more. Wolves excel at taking down such armies. You can question my record all you want, but that won't change my personal experience. You're welcome to disbelieve; I have nothing to prove here.

 

 

 

Gotta love the internet, the world where you can be GOD! where your word is LAW! Anybody who disagrees is a RETARD!

 

I do dispair sometimes.

 

Well, I didn't say that. I said that a non-retarded Space Wolf player would be more than enough to beat most GK armies out there. I will say, however, that in putting such words in my mouth, not only did you declare that anyone that disagrees with me was retarded, but you seem to have exhibited a prime example in yourself and your lack of basic reading comprehension. (Let's keep it clear of attacking the person, please, and attack the issue. If you disagree, support your case, don't just hurl insults or you'll get nothing but the same in return.)

 

 

i bet if i started tossing orbital strikes down range to your massively concentrated units, you wouldn't be sitting there pouring fire down range smile.gif. But i guess its all on how you play. and as for winning, its only half the game. Most Important Rule trumps all. I enjoy killing Long Fangs that are supposedly "well protected and out of the way". Matter of pride and all. Anyway, i guess my point is it seems like you have been playing some pretty unimaginative (see:newbies) players if you've been so dominant with a pretty identical build vs. these tailored lists. kudos on the victories though, undeafeted is always tough. i managed a nice run through the local tourny using crons, but that was more for fun than anything serious.

 

Agreed. Orbital Strikes are the one thing my army -really- has trouble dealing with. While they're mostly spaced out, once I get to the center of the board, an Orbital Strike will flat-out ruin my day. Thankfully, I rarely play against such armies, and if I do, I'm forced to alter my deployment accordingly.

 

I'm not going to say anything horrendously bad about the Knight players in this area, as they're my friends. I will say that one or two of them aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, so to speak. Two of them, however, have often carried the top and second spot in local tournaments with various armies, so it's not like I'm facing a bunch of mental midgets.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Now, Mod hat on...

 

That is enough personal sniping and flaming... it can stop now and we can act as courteous mature individuals, yes?

 

Mod hat off, personal opinion hat on <_<

 

The concept I utilize and go for myself is localized fire superiority. The Inquisition (previous incarnations of DH, WH and new Grey Knights) has always excelled at short to mid range firepower, and had a lack of long range firepower. Therefore engaging in a long range slugfest is always a losing proposition.

 

Instead, we must create pockets of localized fire superiority and selectively apply two or three units worth of strength at a specific point surgically. Mechanization is only one tool, deep striking is another. We need to deliver overwhelming firepower to a specific point in order to trim threats. Lining up across the table and walking forward doesn't work for us. Utilizing a combination of deep strikes, transports, infantry based assault firepower (you have to admit 10 storm bolters with some combination of psycannons is a lot of assault firepower, twice the range of bolters on standard Astartes) we can deliver overwhelming firepower to select targets, getting several volleys of fire before we can engage in melee with a weakened target, overwhelming them with our nemesis force weapons.

 

Wolves have superior long range and anti-tank capabilities it is true, however we have a longer threat range of anti-infantry firepower, and better methods to deliver that firepower into it's optimum range that negate those superior long and anti-tank range weaponry. We simply need to use all the weapons in our arsenal to do so, including deep striking and other deployment shennanigans.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Well, I didn't say that. I said that a non-retarded Space Wolf player would be more than enough to beat most GK armies out there. I will say, however, that in putting such words in my mouth, not only did you declare that anyone that disagrees with me was retarded, but you seem to have exhibited a prime example in yourself and your lack of basic reading comprehension. (Let's keep it clear of attacking the person, please, and attack the issue. If you disagree, support your case, don't just hurl insults or you'll get nothing but the same in return.)

 

Two problems here:

 

A) You assume the SW's are better than they actualy are.

 

<_< You assume Grey Knights are worse than they actualy are

 

Support your case that a non-retarded SW player can beat most GK armies out there. When you have documented, say, a hundred games using various SW armies against various GK armies.

 

When you have done that come back to us with your documented proof. Otherwise it's just your OPINION with no basis in fact or evidence.

[Decoy]

Wolves have superior long range and anti-tank capabilities it is true, however we have a longer threat range of anti-infantry firepower, and better methods to deliver that firepower into it's optimum range that negate those superior long and anti-tank range weaponry. We simply need to use all the weapons in our arsenal to do so, including deep striking and other deployment shennanigans.

 

 

Now here, we agree. However, that is ultimately my point. Knights -need- to utilize every weapon in their arsenal to do what you describe. Wolves, by the very design of most lists, do this naturally; we do not have to take various things to optimize our firepoints and areas of control. In any match where one army is, by design, capable of something, the army that must conform itself to do that same thing will be at a distinct disadvantage. Where Knights must insist on diversifying to maintain optimal capacity, the Wolves already do. That, I think, is where the ultimate Wolf advantage lies.

 

Two problems here:

 

A) You assume the SW's are better than they actualy are.

 

cool.gif You assume Grey Knights are worse than they actualy are

 

Support your case that a non-retarded SW player can beat most GK armies out there. When you have documented, say, a hundred games using various SW armies against various GK armies.

 

When you have done that come back to us with your documented proof. Otherwise it's just your OPINION with no basis in fact or evidence.

 

A.) There's a reason Grays are considered the best Troops, and that Wolves are considered the most diverse of armies on the board. Because they just are.

 

B.) Well, compared to the standard Wolf troops, they pretty much are. Considering that for every one of your troops choices, Wolves get two of equal or better quality each, that pretty much means the GK are at a disadvantage.

 

 

In regards to documentation... Working on it. As I said, I'm around 45 in, with another four games later tonight. As it stands, I have yet to lose, meaning I'll need to lose the next 50 games in order to balance it out. (I do this with most codices, honestly. It's standard operating procedure for me. I normally stop at 50, but if you want 100, I can get 100.0

[the jeske]

A) You assume the SW's are better than they actualy are.

you want to tell me they are one of the two best codex for tournament builds that are both most flexible with the largest number of viable units ? with no bad match ups , but more then 2 very good ones , with cheap gear and weapons used in all comers lists that nerf whole builds ?

 

sure GK can out shot SW with a crow puri build , but not at 1500 [which oddly enough is the main land europe tournament points size] and builds that use a mix of units have it even tougher .+ while all GK units can do counter not matter what points are played , it is only counter . GK cant do an army that is both hth and shoty at the same time . SW can . That is why SW are more flexible and better and that is why when two players use the GK/SW dex at the same level of game play , a SW player has a bigger chance to win with an all comers army. Be it a tournament army or not.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Wolves have superior long range and anti-tank capabilities it is true, however we have a longer threat range of anti-infantry firepower, and better methods to deliver that firepower into it's optimum range that negate those superior long and anti-tank range weaponry. We simply need to use all the weapons in our arsenal to do so, including deep striking and other deployment shennanigans.

 

 

Now here, we agree. However, that is ultimately my point. Knights -need- to utilize every weapon in their arsenal to do what you describe. Wolves, by the very design of most lists, do this naturally; we do not have to take various things to optimize our firepoints and areas of control. In any match where one army is, by design, capable of something, the army that must conform itself to do that same thing will be at a distinct disadvantage. Where Knights must insist on diversifying to maintain optimal capacity, the Wolves already do. That, I think, is where the ultimate Wolf advantage lies.

 

Two problems here:

 

A) You assume the SW's are better than they actualy are.

 

cool.gif You assume Grey Knights are worse than they actualy are

 

Support your case that a non-retarded SW player can beat most GK armies out there. When you have documented, say, a hundred games using various SW armies against various GK armies.

 

When you have done that come back to us with your documented proof. Otherwise it's just your OPINION with no basis in fact or evidence.

 

A.) There's a reason Grays are considered the best Troops, and that Wolves are considered the most diverse of armies on the board. Because they just are.

 

B.) Well, compared to the standard Wolf troops, they pretty much are. Considering that for every one of your troops choices, Wolves get two of equal or better quality each, that pretty much means the GK are at a disadvantage.

 

 

In regards to documentation... Working on it. As I said, I'm around 45 in, with another four games later tonight. As it stands, I have yet to lose, meaning I'll need to lose the next 50 games in order to balance it out. (I do this with most codices, honestly. It's standard operating procedure for me. I normally stop at 50, but if you want 100, I can get 100.0

 

heh, yeah, internet guy says he's won 45 games against the GK's

 

well I won 100 games with just one GK called Chuck Norris..........

 

Got documented proof? I doubt it.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I would argue that the Space Wolves aren't "naturally diverse." Merely that over time, most people have found that a diverse, well balanced army tends to do better so that's what you tend to see. Wolves can do things like infantry spam, Loganwing, lots of Land Raiders or armor, Dread spam, etc. The reason that a well rounded list with various heavy and anti-infantry weapon, multiple small units, with long range vehicle support is the "standard" Wolf list is because they have conformed themselves to this standard. It does not exist in and of itself just because the Codex is built that way, it is built because the Codex has had enough field time for that to show itself to be the generally stronger build. The Grey Knight Codex is still new... people will come to realize that in diversity is strength, and then you'll see more builds similar to "being forced to use all our tools." It's merely a case of more natural evolution and people learning what works <_<

 

EDIT: Grey Knights are a hybrid between shooty and chopy.. they just are a little more shooty which leads to choppy (with all models having power weapons). Space Wolves are a little less shooty (lets face it, basic guy with storm bolter is better than bolter on the move) with more attacks, but less quality attacks (less strength, not powered).

[Daedalus Templarius]

I have the wolves codex, but never actually played them. I might have a glance at it, even though I don't actually have anyone in my gaming group that plays them.

 

One of these days I need to go down to the FLGS and strike up some games.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I would argue that the Space Wolves aren't "naturally diverse." Merely that over time, most people have found that a diverse, well balanced army tends to do better so that's what you tend to see. Wolves can do things like infantry spam, Loganwing, lots of Land Raiders or armor, Dread spam, etc. The reason that a well rounded list with various heavy and anti-infantry weapon, multiple small units, with long range vehicle support is the "standard" Wolf list is because they have conformed themselves to this standard. It does not exist in and of itself just because the Codex is built that way, it is built because the Codex has had enough field time for that to show itself to be the generally stronger build. The Grey Knight Codex is still new... people will come to realize that in diversity is strength, and then you'll see more builds similar to "being forced to use all our tools." It's merely a case of more natural evolution and people learning what works :)

 

Good point, i remember when the SW's first came out and the similar posts to this one, same with the Blood Angels.

 

All the various builds that evolved into the cookie-cutter, off the shelf tourney lists we see today. By the time the Dark Angels come out and we start this whole thing off again in their forum, we'll have our own cookie-cutter builds.

 

We'll probably see a Grey knight version of Decoy annoying DA players with "a non-retard GK player can beat anything the Dark Angels can bring to the field"

[Decoy]

heh, yeah, internet guy says he's won 45 games against the GK's

 

well I won 100 games with just one GK called Chuck Norris..........

 

Got documented proof? I doubt it.

 

 

I offered to do it for you, but you insist on mocking. Considering I accepted your offer and you still insist on flaming, I think I'm done with you. I don't deal with poorly-done trolling.

 

 

I would argue that the Space Wolves aren't "naturally diverse." Merely that over time, most people have found that a diverse, well balanced army tends to do better so that's what you tend to see. Wolves can do things like infantry spam, Loganwing, lots of Land Raiders or armor, Dread spam, etc. The reason that a well rounded list with various heavy and anti-infantry weapon, multiple small units, with long range vehicle support is the "standard" Wolf list is because they have conformed themselves to this standard. It does not exist in and of itself just because the Codex is built that way, it is built because the Codex has had enough field time for that to show itself to be the generally stronger build. The Grey Knight Codex is still new... people will come to realize that in diversity is strength, and then you'll see more builds similar to "being forced to use all our tools." It's merely a case of more natural evolution and people learning what works smile.gif

 

EDIT: Grey Knights are a hybrid between shooty and chopy.. they just are a little more shooty which leads to choppy (with all models having power weapons). Space Wolves are a little less shooty (lets face it, basic guy with storm bolter is better than bolter on the move) with more attacks, but less quality attacks (less strength, not powered).

 

Agreed in it's entirety. Balance in an army (ironically something I don't do, myself) is needed for most accurate TAC lists. I think my problem is that, in every iteration, I've yet to see a Knight balance that. I've had a few people try the Shunting and Deep Striking thing, but ultimately, it comes for naught because they're, in essence, attempting to Termicide (but with Power Armor.) I've little further to say in regards to your argument, to be honest; balance wins the day. I'm just not certain Knights can pull it off reliably (yet).

[Grey Mage]

Trust me- the diverse wolf list isnt a guarantee, its taken alot to straighten the bloodclaws out of 75 Fenrisian Wolf Lists and triple LFs.... some people dont understand adaptive warfare at all.

 

In general I agree though- a good GK list will have alot in common with a good DE list. Pinpoint strikes early on to remove major threats, with a mobile reserve to help you roll flanks and break hammers as needed.

 

The main problem I see with GKs though is 2fold- first, that they lack the ability to take serious anti-tank firepower on their troops squads wich limits their prospective targets and secondly that they lack access to low-ap firepower to give them consistant kills against hard infantry targets. In fact, Im willing to bet its that second function more than anything else that lets decoy win his games consistantly against GKs- give the man an armor save and hell make it.

 

Now, the AT firepower can be partially mitigated- S7 is good for transport popping vs most armies, I use plasma for that all the time- and the TwoxAutocannon Psyround configuration on a Dreadnaught gives overwhelming firepower on a single target that simply isnt matched by anything short of a broadside. The Vindicaire is likewise quite popular for its AT ability as much as anything else.

 

The inability to punch through hard infantry is a killer though. It can be mitigated by sheer volume of fire- there does come a time when 99% of opponents simply cant be that lucky- but the expensive nature of GKs limits how viable this can be. Wich is why- much like with the SW codex- I advise taking more basic troops choices. Bolt Rounds and PWs will win you more games than any fancy toy out there.

 

The other way to get around the lack of low-ap firepower is to take henchmen squads. Of course, this also requires taking an inquisitorial HQ and is placed in the least survivable and least mobile unit in the entire army wich limits its function alot.

 

In areas where Gaurd, Eldar, Orks and Nidz are common place the GKs will do very well. In areas with a higher level of Marines and Necrons the battle will be more difficult. Indeed, unless I miss my guess in about a year and half, two years when C:Eldar comes out GKs will find a resurgence as their premier hunters in the game.

 

What I dont recommend is trying to play multiple small units with strike squads. They just dont hit hard enough in ranged combat to serve well as five man deepstrikers, and adding razorbacks stacks up the cost quickly without adding much to your durability as a whole. I also recommend keeping elite units like purifiers and paladins to about 1 per 1000pts in order to make sure you have the bodies on the table to get the jobs done. I also think that interceptor squads with 2-4 upgrades are going to become a valuable MVP for alot of GK armies out there, even though they are a little pricier.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Trust me- the diverse wolf list isnt a guarantee, its taken alot to straighten the bloodclaws out of 75 Fenrisian Wolf Lists and triple LFs.... some people dont understand adaptive warfare at all.

 

In general I agree though- a good GK list will have alot in common with a good DE list. Pinpoint strikes early on to remove major threats, with a mobile reserve to help you roll flanks and break hammers as needed.

 

The main problem I see with GKs though is 2fold- first, that they lack the ability to take serious anti-tank firepower on their troops squads wich limits their prospective targets and secondly that they lack access to low-ap firepower to give them consistant kills against hard infantry targets. In fact, Im willing to bet its that second function more than anything else that lets decoy win his games consistantly against GKs- give the man an armor save and hell make it.

 

Now, the AT firepower can be partially mitigated- S7 is good for transport popping vs most armies, I use plasma for that all the time- and the TwoxAutocannon Psyround configuration on a Dreadnaught gives overwhelming firepower on a single target that simply isnt matched by anything short of a broadside. The Vindicaire is likewise quite popular for its AT ability as much as anything else.

 

The inability to punch through hard infantry is a killer though. It can be mitigated by sheer volume of fire- there does come a time when 99% of opponents simply cant be that lucky- but the expensive nature of GKs limits how viable this can be. Wich is why- much like with the SW codex- I advise taking more basic troops choices. Bolt Rounds and PWs will win you more games than any fancy toy out there.

 

The other way to get around the lack of low-ap firepower is to take henchmen squads. Of course, this also requires taking an inquisitorial HQ and is placed in the least survivable and least mobile unit in the entire army wich limits its function alot.

 

In areas where Gaurd, Eldar, Orks and Nidz are common place the GKs will do very well. In areas with a higher level of Marines and Necrons the battle will be more difficult. Indeed, unless I miss my guess in about a year and half, two years when C:Eldar comes out GKs will find a resurgence as their premier hunters in the game.

 

What I dont recommend is trying to play multiple small units with strike squads. They just dont hit hard enough in ranged combat to serve well as five man deepstrikers, and adding razorbacks stacks up the cost quickly without adding much to your durability as a whole. I also recommend keeping elite units like purifiers and paladins to about 1 per 1000pts in order to make sure you have the bodies on the table to get the jobs done. I also think that interceptor squads with 2-4 upgrades are going to become a valuable MVP for alot of GK armies out there, even though they are a little pricier.

 

It's the trade off we make, we sacrifice AP at range for power weapons. While we'll bounce off the power armour as we close, once the close combat starts the str5 power weapin atatcks will turn the tables. Allot of the strategy for grey Knights against power armour will revolve around engineering close combat as quickly and deciseively as possible.

 

I wholeheartedly agree about squad size, I don't think GK can do the razorback spam as effectively as the other power armoured armies, even with purifiers. My money is on 10 man squads picking their fights carefully.

[Pigeons]

Thanks for correcting my math; i'm at work atm so was doing it off memory. :)

 

The list is simply standard MSU: you drop something in, you might kill 1 unit if you are lucky, more likely you will just destroy its transport. next turn everything in my list is targeting you. how long are longfangs going to stand up to 28 astro aiming psycannon shots, the vindie, the conversion beam etc? And why would i close with your GH? At 12-20 inches GH are lame, GK are not, so you either have to get closer to me, or you have to get back beyond 24 inches. Which again isn't the strong point of the wolves. In my experience the DE and IG are both far harder matchups for the GK than the SW or BA.

 

But hey, I didn't say it was an autowin. I still think it is more than competitive, and judging by how similar this list is to this one at YTTH, I'm not the only one;

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/04/crowe-minmaxed/

YTTH is, in my opinion, a horrible reference. I have lost most of my faith in your idea just from finding out its from stelek.

 

At 12-24" is a GHs sweet spot. GHs are knife fighters, just as much as the entire GK army is. And unlike GKs, GHs have the ability to take ranged weaponry that will cut through the armor of opposing marines by taking plasmaguns. Not only that, but they are backed up by impressive fire from Dreads, Speeders, and Long Fangs. While Psy-dreads do have an impressive number of shots they simply cant deal with as many targets as long fangs can, nor can they be augmented by additional long range fire from your elite choices.

 

On average a pair of Long Fang squads with missile launchers/lascannons will take out 3 rhino transpots in a turn, immobilised or destroyed. Adding in a pair of razorbacks gives us another, and two typhoon squads usually takes out another each. Thats five dead transports- or more than half your lists mobility and almost all of its long-ranged firepower. A whirlwind will start the punishment on exposed squads or target that vindicaire early, GHs just have to line up and await your closing- because if you dont youll be pounded into oblivion by long range firepower. By the time your in range that list will have lost about half its numbers *Ie by the end of turn 2* and the turn after it begins laying into the hunters the return fire will likely be more viscious because of 1) better numbers, 2) plasma, 3) those long fangs/speeders wich are likely to still be slamming into squads. Not only that but the list remains an all-rounder so theres no reason not to take it to tournament, GKs or no.

 

Without fire support a list is dead. Its been like that since the invention of the atlatl and its introduction to warfare on the tribal level. Fire Support is what your lists needs, and in order to bring it youll need to sacrifice even more bodies. That many purifiers is killing the list, and the need for so many razorbacks puts the nails in the coffin.

 

you seem to be implying that Long Fangs are your key to success. pretty standard id say for SW. what, pray tell, will you do should, i dunno...say...3 dreadknights pop up in your backyard :P. there are counters to everything in this game. the fact that wolves list long fangs on there "must-take" list (i don't blame you, with their points cost and split fire ability youd be silly not to in a competative game) just means thats something GK players would have to plan for in a competative setting. and we have ways to counter them, interceptors and dreadknights just to name 2.

 

and for the predicted response of "o but we'll just shoot your dreadknights and interceptors", thats my point. you'll HAVE to deal with them, meaning you wont be shooting at those transports. because you don't want those precious fangs NOT shooting do you? :)

 

 

 

also there's no dreadknights in the list he posted

[Vilicate]

Decoy, wouldn't it also be fair to say that you don't run a standardized SW list? LF's with plasma cannons? I'm not saying they're bad, but the current fashion seems to be heavily fixated on rocket launchers.

 

Anyone who brings ~10 plasma cannons is going to ruin GK's day. It's the ultimate weapon against such an elite army. Just bust them out of their boxes, and small blast away.

 

I think Wolves have a decent match-up against GK anyway; runic weapons to negate powers, decent to excellent close combat, and good shooting. They're an all-around army that has better range, more models and the same general survivability. How is that going to be an easy match for any army?

[Something Wycked]

Anyone who brings ~10 plasma cannons is going to ruin GK's day. It's the ultimate weapon against such an elite army. Just bust them out of their boxes, and small blast away.

This.

 

95% of my opponents are MEQ, so I have 2 full Devastator Squads with PC's, and my 3rd heavy is usually a Vindicator. It makes MEQ armies cry, especially if they don't MSU.

 

I imagine it'll make most GK players cry as well, circumstances permitting.

[Grimtooth]

Tempest Wrath laughs at deepstriking DKs and jump infantry Interceptors. Considering that power is almost stansard on rune pries, it serves as a deterrence against the tactic of going for Long Fang packs via those methods.

 

10 plasma cannons is pretty harsh. My first LF loadout is missile launchers with my second pack toting plasma cannons. Granted I don't even take the second pack till about 2k.

[skarn]

Yes, the Hunters will come out on top in that fight. I've engaged in it quite often, and I've yet to lose when it comes to a toe-to-toe fight. AP2>Anything you got. There's a reason Grey Hunters are acknowledged as the greatest Troops Choice in the game.

Again at 12-24" inches, 2 plasma shots and 8 bolter shots is clearly inferior to 16 stormbolter shots and 8 psycannon shots. Do the math.

 

As for long fangs, that's as easy as 4 astral aiming psycannons or a callidus or an interceptor squad or whatever. The point is that the GK do have the ability to take out LF or anything else. Otherwise they wouldn't have made it past the playtest stage.

 

Yes, Id argue that GHs have alot of things going for them over 12"- atleast the way I run a pack. At 12-18" they can walk forward and rapidfire, giving all the same advantages as being within 12". At 18-24" the ability to take weaponry that outright ignores a GKs armor save makes alot of difference. A lesson I learned playing eldar- if you have the option never give your opponent a save, ever. GKs largely max out at AP 4, wich means against other marines it just isnt an option, and that hinders them.

So by that logic, all GK units are better in assault than GH? Really?

[skarn]

I've got an idea actually, why don't the SW players here put up their typical list, just so we can get a contextual comparison between the SW and GK?

[Grey Mage]

Yes, the Hunters will come out on top in that fight. I've engaged in it quite often, and I've yet to lose when it comes to a toe-to-toe fight. AP2>Anything you got. There's a reason Grey Hunters are acknowledged as the greatest Troops Choice in the game.

Again at 12-24" inches, 2 plasma shots and 8 bolter shots is clearly inferior to 16 stormbolter shots and 8 psycannon shots. Do the math.

 

As for long fangs, that's as easy as 4 astral aiming psycannons or a callidus or an interceptor squad or whatever. The point is that the GK do have the ability to take out LF or anything else. Otherwise they wouldn't have made it past the playtest stage.

 

Yes, Id argue that GHs have alot of things going for them over 12"- atleast the way I run a pack. At 12-18" they can walk forward and rapidfire, giving all the same advantages as being within 12". At 18-24" the ability to take weaponry that outright ignores a GKs armor save makes alot of difference. A lesson I learned playing eldar- if you have the option never give your opponent a save, ever. GKs largely max out at AP 4, wich means against other marines it just isnt an option, and that hinders them.

So by that logic, all GK units are better in assault than GH? Really?

Yeah, equal numbers given, 1 GK is greater in assault than 1 GH. Thats never been in question in my mind.

[Grimtooth]

The basic SW builds are pretty much common knowledge. That is what it appears to being made as the standard comparison against the GK components.

 

I am kinda lazy to go out and get the GK dex from my truck, but if you choose to run 3 DK, aren't you pretty much losing out on Rifledreads then unless you make them 3 Ven Rifledreads?