Reverse Bandwagoneering

[Adir]

So I've noticed a recent trend in what I will call reverse bandwagoneering. I have noticed several blog posts where folks are realizing that GK won't be the next wolf list and are putting on the brakes and throwing it into reverse...

 

I saw one post where someone had purchased about $700 of new GK stuff the first week... and then the very next week announced that they would be shelving the GK because they weren't particularly good (or they didn't match up to the old Daemonhunters or something o.O ). Start checking ebay ASAP!

 

I also noticed that BoLS pronounced Grey Knights to be too boring... TBH I didn't read the whole post (definitely TL;DR) but of course I had to comment on it :(

 

Just curious what other folks impression of this phenomenon are. I am frankly thrilled with this rapid exit from the Inquisition deep end and hope to see a lot more of it! I got spoiled being the only diehard DH player and just want things to go back to where they were before (please note the irony in this statement).

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The simple fact is the Grey Knighst are surprisingly balanced, they are not the "I win" button people where expecting. You pay for the shinies and the army has a flaw for every advantage and the paladins are just not anything close to thunderwolf puppies.

 

People expect every new Marine dex to be uber-cheese so grab it for easy wins on the table, hoping that the next marine codex will be out before the gaming group figures out how to beat the army on a reglar basis.

 

I am happy the Grey Kights are balanced, I don't like the new fluff or the fricking monkeys, but the army is balanced, fun and still needs skill to play.

[Oiad]

Well, if they were expecting us to get all hurt because they didn't at least wait around until the next codex they've gotta try harder. :D

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Well, if they were expecting us to get all hurt because they didn't at least wait around until the next codex they've gotta try harder. :D

 

I think the badnwagoners forgot that Grey Knighst are not your average astartes, neither are their players :P

[Ashe Darke]

I've found in a lot of games that one part of my army tends to do nothing while the other does loads. It's not the most entertaining list to play but I'm still getting used to it. I am wondering about whether I should make a different list with a different play style to mix it up a bit.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I've found in a lot of games that one part of my army tends to do nothing while the other does loads. It's not the most entertaining list to play but I'm still getting used to it. I am wondering about whether I should make a different list with a different play style to mix it up a bit.

 

I tend to write up 3 lists and randomly choose which one I play each game. makes life a bit more interesting.

[Ashe Darke]

Well I spent about £300 just making one list so making more will be costly. Besides what myself and some of the people I play against do is write the best well rounded list we think we can with the codex and see how it fares. Although now I'm thinking I might go for something more entertaining.

[Inquisitor Apropos]

I tend to write up 3 lists and randomly choose which one I play each game. makes life a bit more interesting.

 

That is a simple, yet amazingly awesome idea. I think I'll borrow it. :D

[Spacefrisian]

Iam happy that i didnt rushed of to get them, now ill be laughing at all the wagoneers who spend money on this. (ill save the money for Necrons and Sisters)

[Inquisitor Fox]

I admit to liking not having common armies (I have Witch Hunters, Daemo...er.. Grey Knights, and Tau), and it's rather nice to get to simply play things I like without having to worry about everyone and their mother having them. While I do have a Space Marine army on the back burner, and bits of Imperial Guard models (mostly holdovers from when I could Induct them, now I'm not sure what to do with them... keep them or see about trading them for other things), my true love has always been the Inquisition armies.

 

That being said, I think it speaks nicely of our book that people aren't finding a "specific army list = win" equation. And if they accuse me of being a bandwagoneer I'll simply brain them to death with my GW case filled with all pewter models ;)

[Adir]

Speaking of costs... I find it delicious that after waiting all these years for cheaper plastic we actually end up with basic troops that are more expensive than that 5 man metal squad we used to have ($30 IIRC). Granted we get a wonderful selection of bits and options on the plastic (which mix nicely with all my old metal guys)... but there is still a sense of irony that an "expensive" metal army didn't actually get any cheaper in plastic in terms of simply boots on the ground.

[Decoy]

I think the large part of why people are fleeing the new Grays is just because, contrary to stated opinion of people disliking their lack of power, the new Grays don't really have a large variety of list. Strike Squads are generally sub-par, GKTs seem to be fairly unviable, the prices of making units "playable" increases exponentially, the psychic powers are fairly bland and niche, the special characters are moderately decent at best (or a tax, at worst; See Crowe).

 

What was expected to be a reasonably balanced and diverse codex, in the vein of BA and Wolves (and, to a lesser extent, Dark Eldar) has instead resulted in a Codex in which the player is shoehorned into a specific army build in order to be competitive. Lesser builds, such as Henchmen-based or PAGK-based or GKT-based, suffer greatly, requiring a player to essentially forfeit winning for the sake of fluff.

 

People can say what they want, but without that diversity and balanced state, I think you GK folk ended up replacing an out-of-date Codex with a slightly more up-to-date codex that is equally subpar in terms of power.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I have to disagree with strike squads or terminators being sub-par or unviable. They're easily equivalent or better than tacticals or standard terminators, and no one seems to be avoiding Marine armies because their troop choices are useless ;) I'd even argue that power weapons and storm bolters on everyone is at least as equivalent to "ultra-grit" or whatever it's being called now.

 

Mostly... I think it's a style thing. They don't play like a normal cookie cutter army, so similar to eldar not a lot of people can handle having an army that has to work together with itself and come to an internal harmony where the whole is more than the sum of it's parts. The Inquisition has never been an easy army to win with, Witch Hunters or Daemon Hunters, but it's certainly powerful in the right hands and the right playstyle.

[number6]

@Decoy: I think you need to spend more time with the GK codex. Our Troops choices are great. There are multiple quality builds available.

 

As INP has stated, just because the GKs don't play like a lesser Astartes army doesn't mean that they are subpar. They're just different. And different is good, yes? ;)

 

I used to say this regularly with the old Daemonhunters: If you bring your Space Marine (any variant) tactical biases to the table with the Grey Knights, you will lose. It's just that simple. The only things that are the same are power armour, terminator armour, and Troop transports. And that's not enough to hide the wide gulf in capabilities and tactical approaches that exist between these armies.

[Decoy]

@Decoy: I think you need to spend more time with the GK codex. Our Troops choices are great. There are multiple quality builds available.

 

As INP has stated, just because the GKs don't play like a lesser Astartes army doesn't mean that they are subpar. They're just different. And different is good, yes? :yes:

 

I used to say this regularly with the old Daemonhunters: If you bring your Space Marine (any variant) tactical biases to the table with the Grey Knights, you will lose. It's just that simple. The only things that are the same are power armour, terminator armour, and Troop transports. And that's not enough to hide the wide gulf in capabilities and tactical approaches that exist between these armies.

 

Well, that's the thing. I did. I made build after build after build, played countless times as the Knights. I mean, it's not like I lost every game, but it just got very... for lack of a better term... dull. The flexibility and options of both the B.A. and Wolf dexes just wasn't there, and I found myself making fluff-based lists in an effort to rekindle the fun aspect of it, sacrificing competitive edge for fluff-based themed goodness. A well-developed codex does not do that. After being forced to such an extreme in an attempt to find the fun of the army, I realized that I simply would not have fun playing the Knights.

 

You're quite right; the Knights play differently. However, different is not always better. A bent fork may be different, but it is rendered useless in being so.

[dublindawg]

I jumped on the bandwagon for the shear fact that GK looks to be a harder army to play. Plus the fact that after a few thumpings from my SW army several other players at the LGS have taken up the SW banner.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Grey Knights have always been a very focused, specific force. Even back in Rogue trader when they where just one unit.

 

To me that's their charm, they are a hammer blow designed to do one job, make the enemies of the Emperor have a REALLY bad day. the lack of fancy shinies makes a Grey Knight player make more use of what he has, we don't have the specialty "I win" buttons and in all honesty we don't need them.

 

As the venerable Number6 mentioned, you have to forget everything you know about playing astartes before you play the grey knights.

[AoC]

Decoy speaks truth. The codex is just not fun. And internal balance is simply lacking as default troop choices are subpar, and play nothing like you would expect from grey knights (and they crippled inquisition, fun acolytes, troop choices, fluff and made stuff dull overall).

[HERO]

The simple fact is the Grey Knighst are surprisingly balanced, they are not the "I win" button people where expecting. You pay for the shinies and the army has a flaw for every advantage and the paladins are just not anything close to thunderwolf puppies.

 

People expect every new Marine dex to be uber-cheese so grab it for easy wins on the table, hoping that the next marine codex will be out before the gaming group figures out how to beat the army on a reglar basis.

 

I am happy the Grey Kights are balanced, I don't like the new fluff or the fricking monkeys, but the army is balanced, fun and still needs skill to play.

 

I agree the the new GK book is balanced, but compared to what I knew them as back in '03, they're not the army that I wanted.

 

For older vets, this can go two ways:

- The "I've been playing the same old crap for 9 years and I'll take whatever I can get."

- and the "This new book is not what I wanted, F that."

[KnowThyEnemy]

Id rather be a bent fork then just another face in the pack/platoon/flock :yes:. im going to have to disagree with this lack of creativity sentiment. we have all the proper tools for success we were missing in C:DH (i.e. grenades and transports), plus some cool new things (long range dakka, henchmen squads, new list builds). whats not to love about going toe to toe with shooty and cc armies using the same list? (see Crowe and the 5 Dreads). if you find ur lists aren't competitive, perhaps u should post some for a second opinion?

[the jeske]

too many people though GK will be a hth army . focuses on the force weapons and as always on the upgrades , while most working builds are always shoty . So those people who thought they would own with all termi armies or mass mecha with force weapons will quit fast. It is a bit like it was with the BAs.

[Decoy]

if you find ur lists aren't competitive, perhaps u should post some for a second opinion?

 

I'm not saying that the lists aren't competitive. I won far more than I lost by a large margin. All I'm saying is that when I was playing them, I certainly didn't feel like an "elite" army, and when I'm bored after five games, it's definitely not an army I'm willing to invest in. No amount of bling or special rules can make an army fun to play, and personally, I think the Knight dex was way off the mark in that regard.

 

And just in case someone thinks I just have ADD or something... I've been playing effectively the same Wolf army for almost ten years and have yet to get bored. So it's certainly not that I easily lose interest.

[number6]

For older vets, this can go two ways:

- The "I've been playing the same old crap for 9 years and I'll take whatever I can get."

- and the "This new book is not what I wanted, F that."

And then there is a third way. The:

 

- "The old codex ceased being both interesting and competitive about two years ago. Thankfully the new codex is both." :)

[HERO]

For older vets, this can go two ways:

- The "I've been playing the same old crap for 9 years and I'll take whatever I can get."

- and the "This new book is not what I wanted, F that."

And then there is a third way. The:

 

- "The old codex ceased being both interesting and competitive about two years ago. Thankfully the new codex is both." :)

 

I guess, just not my cup of tea unfortunately.

 

And the last Adepticon army percentages just made me upset. 77% of the armies participating was Marines. Next year it's going to worse... so yeah, :cuss that.

 

Good thing I have Dark Eldar :|

[pingo]

So some people like the new codex, and others don't?

 

Wow, that's so unlike everything else that's ever existed :cuss

 

I'm having flashbacks to the releases of just about all codexes in recent memory. Things are still very much up in the air at the moment. Perhaps we should really address this question in a few month's time.

 

As for people starting a GK army* then not liking it and giving up on it ... well ... sucks to be you, but I guess you need to carefully consider the decision to start a new army and think seriously about whether it's for you. There's always a risk of disappointment in starting a new army, just as there's a risk of disappointment in starting anything new.

 

 

* I won't call them bandwaggoners as that implies negative connotations I don't want to apply generally to anyone who's started the army