BrotherWasted Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 People seem to be implying that there is flexibility in the SW and BA Codexes.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Seconding what pingo said. Not every army is for everyone; some people like SW toys, some people like BA toys, some people like C:SM toys, and then there's the people who like GK toys. YMMV! My toys are not your toys, eh? Edit: People seem to be implying that there is flexibility in the SW and BA Codexes.... I can't speak to SW, but BA is far more flexible than the C:SM codex, and if it wasn't for Inquisitorial henchmen it would also be far more flexible than GK... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 People seem to be implying that there is flexibility in the SW and BA Codexes.... SW codex is flexible, just people think the only way to play SW's is with thunderwolf cav or Loganwing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 The more I read through the Daemonhunter Codex, the more I like it, as long as I ignore the fluff. It's one of the most-balanced codices GW has made for 5th ed., with no I-win! buttons. The big expected list, the Purifiers, has a good limit built into it with Crowe, the Paladins are well-priced, especially when used as Troops, etc. etc. etc. Now if they could just get the fluff right... People seem to be implying that there is flexibility in the SW and BA Codexes.... The Space Wolf codex, in my opinion, is one of the most flexible codices in existence. You can create almost any type of list, from gunline to a Deep Strike/Outflanking assault army. Give me any list type, and I will make you a list for that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dylan Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Not sure what all the strike squad hate is all about they've stood up pretty well in all areas I've used them. I enjoy all the new toys GKs have received, dreadknights stormravens particularly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 People are crying that they don't have three attacks on the charge like Grey Hunters. Who cares. I have force weapons and Storm Bolters on my standard troops. My ability to move and fire is superior to C:SM. I've wiped out or neutered too many Marines with my Strike Squads to count. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Most are actually complaining because Grey Hunters can beat a ten man strike squad in assault whether they charge or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 hahahahah, really, without charging? I seriously doubt it, even if you want to pull out the mathhammer. A 10-man Strike Squad may not have 30 attacks on the charge, but it instead makes up for this by shooting EVERY weapon in the squad before it charges. If someone charged a Strike Squad into a pack of Grey Hunters without shooting first, I think you may have a point. In reality, those extra 10 attacks on the charge are made up for by my Assault weapons, which usually thin out 3-5 before I charge. A pack of Grey Hunters will get to shoot what, ONLY a Meltagun at me before the assault? Go for it. I have seen a pack of Grey Hunters get reduced to 4 men before a Strike Squad assaults. Conversely, I have seen a pack of Grey Hunters get the charge on a Strike Squad, only to come out of the assault with 3-4 men left when the GKs retaliated. 3+ armor counts for a lot, and when you take that away from Grey Hunters, the playfield becomes somewhat more level. Every dude I kill on my turn is 3 attacks you lose in your squad. You're left with maybe 15 attacks or so, if you pass Counter-Attack, while I still have 21, often at S5, almost all with force weapons, so you don't have that nice 2/3 chance to make a save. My armor is just as good as yours, too, don't forget. It's all about who gets the charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 But also don't forget that you have to be within twelve inches at the beginning of your turn, so I can shoot my 4 plasma shots and 13 bolt shots at you. I sense doom in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Most are actually complaining because Grey Hunters can beat a ten man strike squad in assault whether they charge or not. Well, GHs are one of the foremost warriors in the galaxy :teehee:..... But seriously, they go at the same initiative- or the GKs go first if they have Halberds. I sense a problem with using the right tactics here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 What do you mean? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwarbosss Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I am :P with the new codex. GK and Guard were my first armies way back in 3rd ed. I don't need power units to win. Just good balanced units. The GK codex has a lot of those. As for play style this codex fits mine perfect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The Grey Knight Strike squad has all the options to build a powerful unit... For example I'm currently using the following build: 10x Grey Knight > 5x pairs of Nemesis falchions > 2x psycannon > psybolt ammo Rhino > dozer blades > warp stabilization field Standing still they can throw down 16 S5 shots and 8 rending S7 shots. On the charge they only lose 4 of the rending S7 shots - no big loss in my mind. On the charge you've got 21 S5 attacks that ignore armor saves - versus an equal number of Grey Hunters they should on average kill 6 to 7 Space Wolves... That pretty much decimates the squad of Grey Hunters... If you add in the shooting prior to the assault that's a sweep for sure. The GKST weighs in at 340 points with the rhino - pricy but well worth it in my opinion. Psybolt ammo and Hammerhand are both huge advantages for the Strike squad as basically all your attacks are S5 except for the psycannons. The psycannons are also another huge advantage. Of course this is the best case analysis but it is a useful exercise in terms of comparison. Grey Knights are a top troop choice if kitted out properly. If you play them right you'll get those extra points right back. If you're willing to pay the points you can build a squad that is both strong in shooting and melee. Sure it's more points than a squad of 10 Grey Hunters in a rhino but it's also a much better unit in every way - you're definitely getting what you paid for in points. G :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godhead Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I am starting to come around to the thought that the GK basic troops are probably your best options. I however don't think that dumping 340 points into a GKSS and then saying that they are so much better and that you get what you pay for. I'll get almost 2x the bodies for what you're paying that combined with MOTW and wolf standard can absolutely pay you back in spades what you're dishing out. Fighting units in lopsided battles is not a good strategy. That's the same thing as people complaining that a 600 point TWC/Thunderlord is overpowered because their 220 point squad can't cut the mustard. I think that GK's overall will see a decline in their effectiveness when facing armies that mess with their psychic tests. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 People seem to be implying that there is flexibility in the SW and BA Codexes.... SW codex is flexible, just people think the only way to play SW's is with thunderwolf cav or Loganwing. Those people are fools. I agree with Godhead however- the basic strike squad and terminators are the way to go- you get the most bang for your buck with them. Interceptor squads give some extra mobility, and one or two elite squads will give you a good bit of extra umph where you need it. But the more you spam elite units the smaller and smaller your list gets, and the increased umph means less because you can do less with it and keep it alive for a signficantly shorter amount of time. What do you mean? I mean if you A, give your opponent more to worry about than your transports and B, stay in your transports instead of jumping out early, getting the assault isnt so hard. Drive up, stay in your rhino and shoot some specials out the top if you can, and then disembark, move, assault the next turn. People who sit outside their transport for a turn needlessly are being silly- the only reason to do so is if you can inflict heavy casualties via rapid fire without fear of getting hit by effective template weaponry. Against foes who dont have good artillery and/or nearby melta in good numbers staying in your transpot cuts down on enemy kill factors- and if nothing else, say vs GHs with 2x MG, you dont have to deal with taking the meltas and bolters from that squad to your face, even if they do blow up your transport. In your example- those plasma shots are instead being used to cut through the transport rather than the power armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenric Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I actually switched from Wolves to Grey Knights but it wasn't because of bandwagoning. I won alot with my wolves but the army always lacked soemthign for me in the way the army is played. After trying Grey Knights for one battle I knew I found the army for me. I love to have my models beiong able to move and shoot properly and get stuck in CC rather quick. I feel the Space Wolves are probably the stronger army of the two but not the most fun to play(for me). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 But also don't forget that you have to be within twelve inches at the beginning of your turn, so I can shoot my 4 plasma shots and 13 bolt shots at you. I sense doom in the future. The same applies to you if you want to assault me. Which, you can't do if you fire your bolters; you have to rely on boltpistols and Meltaguns. I had overlooked the bolt pistols beforehand. In either case, both armies want to get the charge, and both need to be within 12" to even get a charge in the first place. A Grey Knight squad can unload twice the 12" firepower of a Grey Hunter pack: You get 8 bolt pistols and 2 meltaguns/flamers, I get 16 Storm Bolter shots and 4 Psycannon rounds/2 Incinerators. I agree that SW certainly have the edge in long range firepower, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Of course the key to that is GHs dont care about getting the charge. They can instead rapid fire and cut down your numbers, and then accept the charge and counter-attack. And Plasma works so much better on GKs than Psycannons work on GHs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Grey Knights can do nearly the same thing from twice the range. I would gladly put my 8 Psycannon shots and 16 S5 Storm Bolter shots into a GH Pack and accept a counter charge two turns later - that's how long it's going to take to get to me. That squad is going to be cut down by wound flooding and what remains will be mopped up. I guess my point is that, no, a Grey Hunter pack cannot just expect to beat a Strike Squad in assault every time. It just doesn't happen like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 So I've noticed a recent trend in what I will call reverse bandwagoneering. I have noticed several blog posts where folks are realizing that GK won't be the next wolf list and are putting on the brakes and throwing it into reverse... I saw one post where someone had purchased about $700 of new GK stuff the first week... and then the very next week announced that they would be shelving the GK because they weren't particularly good (or they didn't match up to the old Daemonhunters or something o.O ). Start checking ebay ASAP! I also noticed that BoLS pronounced Grey Knights to be too boring... TBH I didn't read the whole post (definitely TL;DR) but of course I had to comment on it :woot: Just curious what other folks impression of this phenomenon are. I am frankly thrilled with this rapid exit from the Inquisition deep end and hope to see a lot more of it! I got spoiled being the only diehard DH player and just want things to go back to where they were before (please note the irony in this statement). Seriously, those types of gamers think spam and cheese win games and instant click and point armies. Grey Knights require some brains to play, something that "they" can't handle or are unwilling. At the moment, Grey knights are the swiss knife of 40k IMO, i don't need to see the shiny armour to know that, or the insane ammo types or the insane special rules they have. They are because i say they are! And no i haven't been brain washed :), i have played with them enough times already to know how good they are and they kick ass! I recently had fun just eating krak missile spam from a SW player as i rhino'd across the field to his dismay and hit his ranks like a thunderbolt. SW just never had the firepower to bring them down when i had a +3 save for two turns on 6 vehicles for 1750 points and his guys didn't dare go into close combat with me. Same with the BA and the guard, well the guard gave me more trouble, but they still felt the wrath of ORDER 666 ! thanks antique_nova Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The Space Wolf codex, in my opinion, is one of the most flexible codices in existence. You can create almost any type of list, from gunline to a Deep Strike/Outflanking assault army. Give me any list type, and I will make you a list for that. Imperial Guard have the most flexible codex! Hooray for us normal humans! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The Space Wolf codex, in my opinion, is one of the most flexible codices in existence. You can create almost any type of list, from gunline to a Deep Strike/Outflanking assault army. Give me any list type, and I will make you a list for that. Imperial Guard have the most flexible codex! Hooray for us normal humans! we get bored of killing the same army all the time so we appreciate variety in our squishy breakfast :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slind Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The simple fact is the Grey Knighst are surprisingly balanced, they are not the "I win" button people where expecting. You pay for the shinies and the army has a flaw for every advantage and the paladins are just not anything close to thunderwolf puppies. People expect every new Marine dex to be uber-cheese so grab it for easy wins on the table, hoping that the next marine codex will be out before the gaming group figures out how to beat the army on a reglar basis. I am happy the Grey Kights are balanced, I don't like the new fluff or the fricking monkeys, but the army is balanced, fun and still needs skill to play. I agree the the new GK book is balanced, but compared to what I knew them as back in '03, they're not the army that I wanted. For older vets, this can go two ways: - The "I've been playing the same old crap for 9 years and I'll take whatever I can get." - and the "This new book is not what I wanted, F that." I think that depends on how you played you old knights. Just like you (I've been following your blog until recently) I've played a ton of frustrating games, where the "eliteness" poked up its ugly head: I.e. One game I sweepped the floor with my opponent, the next I loose big to Necrons. But instead of getting mad and tossing my GKs on Ebay, I tried to apply some of the tricks and tips that Number6 wrote up 4 or 5 years ago about playing Deamonhunters (I think in an angry response to the LR-spam-thingy). To my big surprise, the new knights play very similar to the old ones, and with a few adjustments, Number6's old tactica is still viable... The new codex just adds more punch to the overall feel and of cause a ton of bells and whistles, but the core is the same. If you read this Number6, my hat is off to you. Oh... by the way, I'm an old vet, and this Codex is what I wanted - so I guess there is a third way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The Space Wolf codex, in my opinion, is one of the most flexible codices in existence. You can create almost any type of list, from gunline to a Deep Strike/Outflanking assault army. Give me any list type, and I will make you a list for that. Imperial Guard have the most flexible codex! Hooray for us normal humans! we get bored of killing the same army all the time so we appreciate variety in our squishy breakfast ;) You haven't earned your breakfast *hands him a lasgun* "now go and earn your breakfast boy! :P thank antique_nova Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The Codex vindicates me so I'm very thankful. I've always gone with psycanon spam, even when it wasn't realy competiyive back when we had a 3rd ed codex and a messy pdf. Now Psycannon spam works and I'm a happy, daemon smashing, puppy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/2/#findComment-2730872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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