Reverse Bandwagoneering

[Grey Mage]

I recently had fun just eating krak missile spam from a SW player as i rhino'd across the field to his dismay and hit his ranks like a thunderbolt. SW just never had the firepower to bring them down when i had a +3 save for two turns on 6 vehicles for 1750 points and his guys didn't dare go into close combat with me. Same with the BA and the guard, well the guard gave me more trouble, but they still felt the wrath of ORDER 666 !

 

thanks

antique_nova

Gotta ask- how are you getting a 3+ save for two turns?

 

I could see one, with smoke launchers and the shrouding, but thats about it tops.

[Adir]

Just play hopscotch with your vehicles. If you can manage to get shrouding off for those turns then you are good.

 

I played very frustration game last night against 'nilla marines. His psychic hood shut down 2/3 of all my powers. Was a very rough game (got pretty well crushed).

[hmk17]

What do you mean?

 

What GH was getting at is that people tend to assume what the other guy ISN'T bringing to the fight.

 

The devil is in the details AND the variables.

[number6]

If you read this Number6, my hat is off to you.

You guys are keeping me VERY busy, but I'm trying to read everything. :P Thanks for the compliment, which I'm sure is undeserved. I would love to know what it was that I wrote! ;) If the topic is old enough, it may have gotten eliminated in a mini-purge that happened several months ago....

[number6]

And the last Adepticon army percentages just made me upset. 77% of the armies participating was Marines.

 

Good thing I have Dark Eldar :|

I'm glad you have DE, too. I have GKs -- and admittedly they have always been my first and favorite army -- but I also own and run Tau and Tyranids.

 

Marines are popular. Too popular, in my opinion. Thankfully, codexes like the DE exist. It very nearly snagged me (and did snag my son)! :( Probably would have if I wasn't already working on 'nids and eagerly anticipating the GK relaunch.

 

Variety is the spice of life. And honestly, the best thing for the hobby are codexes and models like the DE, so more people will play armies other than Imperials, especially Marines.

 

I am hopeful that now that most of the Imperial armies have been relaunched (leaving only BT, DA, and Sisters, I believe), shiny new non-Imperial codexes akin to the DE will put some formidable Imperial enemies on tabletops. You have to realize that in the 2.5 years since the 5e rules, only two codexes out of the seven so far released have been non-Imperial. And of those, four have been Space Marines of one stripe or another.

 

Given that kind of output, it's inevitable that gaming tables will be extremely biased toward Marines and Imperials. But this will change. The non-Imp codexes have been very, very good. Let's hope Necrons continues the trend. :D

[Prathios]

And the last Adepticon army percentages just made me upset. 77% of the armies participating was Marines.

 

Good thing I have Dark Eldar :|

I'm glad you have DE, too. I have GKs -- and admittedly they have always been my first and favorite army -- but I also own and run Tau and Tyranids.

 

Marines are popular. Too popular, in my opinion. Thankfully, codexes like the DE exist. It very nearly snagged me (and did snag my son)! :lol: Probably would have if I wasn't already working on 'nids and eagerly anticipating the GK relaunch.

 

Variety is the spice of life. And honestly, the best thing for the hobby are codexes and models like the DE, so more people will play armies other than Imperials, especially Marines.

 

I am hopeful that now that most of the Imperial armies have been relaunched (leaving only BT, DA, and Sisters, I believe), shiny new non-Imperial codexes akin to the DE will put some formidable Imperial enemies on tabletops. You have to realize that in the 2.5 years since the 5e rules, only two codexes out of the seven so far released have been non-Imperial. And of those, four have been Space Marines of one stripe or another.

 

Given that kind of output, it's inevitable that gaming tables will be extremely biased toward Marines and Imperials. But this will change. The non-Imp codexes have been very, very good. Let's hope Necrons continues the trend. :)

 

Emperor lets hope so. If the Necron codex is well done and some cool new models are released I'll pick them up. I've been wanting to do a cron army for a long time now but couldn't bring myself to choke down their terribad rules. That and the pricetag on some of the units like wraiths. I'd love to see a world were there is at least some difference in army lists from Necrons to Tyranids.

[antique_nova]

I recently had fun just eating krak missile spam from a SW player as i rhino'd across the field to his dismay and hit his ranks like a thunderbolt. SW just never had the firepower to bring them down when i had a +3 save for two turns on 6 vehicles for 1750 points and his guys didn't dare go into close combat with me. Same with the BA and the guard, well the guard gave me more trouble, but they still felt the wrath of ORDER 666 !

 

thanks

antique_nova

Gotta ask- how are you getting a 3+ save for two turns?

 

I could see one, with smoke launchers and the shrouding, but thats about it tops.

 

that and cover from some ruins that i decided to drive through :lol:.

[Ashe Darke]

I played very frustration game last night against 'nilla marines. His psychic hood shut down 2/3 of all my powers. Was a very rough game (got pretty well crushed).

Assuming the casters were all LD9 it's a 58% chance of being blocked. This is where the psychic hood has the edge over SW runic weapon.

[Adir]

I played very frustration game last night against 'nilla marines. His psychic hood shut down 2/3 of all my powers. Was a very rough game (got pretty well crushed).

Assuming the casters were all LD9 it's a 58% chance of being blocked. This is where the psychic hood has the edge over SW runic weapon.

No it was my GK librarian getting shutdown. I would roll a 2 on the hood test and he would roll a 6!

[Brother Captain Kezef]

And the last Adepticon army percentages just made me upset. 77% of the armies participating was Marines.

 

Good thing I have Dark Eldar :|

I'm glad you have DE, too. I have GKs -- and admittedly they have always been my first and favorite army -- but I also own and run Tau and Tyranids.

 

Marines are popular. Too popular, in my opinion. Thankfully, codexes like the DE exist. It very nearly snagged me (and did snag my son)! Probably would have if I wasn't already working on 'nids and eagerly anticipating the GK relaunch.

 

Variety is the spice of life. And honestly, the best thing for the hobby are codexes and models like the DE, so more people will play armies other than Imperials, especially Marines.

 

I am hopeful that now that most of the Imperial armies have been relaunched (leaving only BT, DA, and Sisters, I believe), shiny new non-Imperial codexes akin to the DE will put some formidable Imperial enemies on tabletops. You have to realize that in the 2.5 years since the 5e rules, only two codexes out of the seven so far released have been non-Imperial. And of those, four have been Space Marines of one stripe or another.

 

Given that kind of output, it's inevitable that gaming tables will be extremely biased toward Marines and Imperials. But this will change. The non-Imp codexes have been very, very good. Let's hope Necrons continues the trend. ;)

 

 

I'm hoping somebody fixes the abomination that is Codex Black Legion.. sorry I mean Codex Chaos Marines. Seriously, you can play any Chaos army you want, as long as it's Black legion.

[Ashe Darke]

I played very frustration game last night against 'nilla marines. His psychic hood shut down 2/3 of all my powers. Was a very rough game (got pretty well crushed).

Assuming the casters were all LD9 it's a 58% chance of being blocked. This is where the psychic hood has the edge over SW runic weapon.

No it was my GK librarian getting shutdown. I would roll a 2 on the hood test and he would roll a 6!

That's just bad luck then <_<

[Grimtooth]

I like the new GK dex. My main army will always be my SW, but I see myself picking up at least a 1750 force. The same thing I plan on doing whenever the new Sisters comes out.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

So I've noticed a recent trend in what I will call reverse bandwagoneering. I have noticed several blog posts where folks are realizing that GK won't be the next wolf list and are putting on the brakes and throwing it into reverse...

 

LOL. All the better for us hard core GK players. Wait a minute, I just started using them. :D Eh... all the better for us folks who like cool stuff, even it isn't the end all be all uber-powered army of the moment? That sounds good.

 

I'm diving into GK with a mostly Terminator army for Pete's sake, so you know I am not jumping on the bandwagon in order to crush everyone..

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

But also don't forget that you have to be within twelve inches at the beginning of your turn, so I can shoot my 4 plasma shots and 13 bolt shots at you. I sense doom in the future.

 

The same applies to you if you want to assault me. Which, you can't do if you fire your bolters; you have to rely on boltpistols and Meltaguns. I had overlooked the bolt pistols beforehand.

 

In either case, both armies want to get the charge, and both need to be within 12" to even get a charge in the first place. A Grey Knight squad can unload twice the 12" firepower of a Grey Hunter pack: You get 8 bolt pistols and 2 meltaguns/flamers, I get 16 Storm Bolter shots and 4 Psycannon rounds/2 Incinerators.

 

I agree that SW certainly have the edge in long range firepower, though.

 

But I don't care about charging you, and I will win at long range. I get 13 bolt shots and 4 plasma shots if we're within 12", which we probably are. Your incinerators have to be even closer, which makes it even worse for you, as you are really close to my Grey Hunter/Razorback Conga Line. Your psycannon shots are actually worse than my plasma shots, as, though we have the same strength, I'm AP 2. I think I'd kill enough of your guys to do some real damage. Plus, I have an 11 model squad, while you have ten models that are a good bit more expensive to lose.

[Something Wycked]

But I don't care about charging you, and I will win at long range. I get 13 bolt shots and 4 plasma shots if we're within 12", which we probably are. Your incinerators have to be even closer, which makes it even worse for you, as you are really close to my Grey Hunter/Razorback Conga Line. Your psycannon shots are actually worse than my plasma shots, as, though we have the same strength, I'm AP 2. I think I'd kill enough of your guys to do some real damage. Plus, I have an 11 model squad, while you have ten models that are a good bit more expensive to lose.

Sorry, but you don't win at long range. At short range, sure, your rapid fire plasmas will win- if the Strike Squad sticks to shooting. If they assault, they win, albeit narrowly.

 

At "long" range, 13"-24", the Strike Squad with 2 Psycannons wins handily, even if they're the ones who moved into that range, losing half their Psycannon shots on the first round of shooting.

[Grey Mage]

Why? They wound more often, but they still allow saves. 2 wounds with 3+ saves isnt as good as one wound without a save. I havent been having any problems outshooting GKs with a plasmahunter pack.

[Something Wycked]

Are you running more than 2 plasmas? I crunched numbers for a 10 man GH pack carrying 2 plasma guns with a naked WG, and a 10 man SS with 2 psycannons. In a vacuum (of course), the GH pack wins at 12" or less if the two squads trade volleys and don't move. At 13-24", both squads not moving except for the SS moving to get into range on the first turn, the SS wins if the two squads trade volleys and don't move.

 

This doesn't take into consideration dice performing well or poorly, and it also doesn't take into consideration everything else that was happening on the table when you were playing ;)

 

I'll write up the numbers if you want to look at them though.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

But that's a rather large difference in points. You'd have to include some more stuff in order to call it perfectly equal.

[Something Wycked]

If there's one thing I know, its that war isn't fair, and neither are wargames ;) This isn't a point-for-point comparison, just squad on squad.

 

To even things up, drop the Psycannons and leave everything else the same- it turns out exactly the same way. If memory serves, 200 point SS versus 178 point GH's, so its not terribly imbalanced. Throw a fist or frost axe on the WG and there ya go. They're still getting double the amount of shots you are.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

GH:

13 Bolter Shots

8.7 hit

4.3 wound

1.5 die

4 Plasma Shots

2.6 hit

2.2 wound

2 die

 

Total: 3.5 die

 

SS:

Blah

Total: 2 Die

 

I wouldn't call that even, and remember that you lose more points per model than me.

[Grey Mage]

I'll write up the numbers if you want to look at them though.

Statistics are for people who dont understand math- I can crunch the numbers as well as anyone, and a full strike squad against GHs at range while moving is going to do 1.7 wounds with its 8 stormbolters and .75 wounds with its psycannons. Total is 2.45.

 

GHs with their 8 Bolters are going to do .85 wounds, and then plasma is going to do 1.11 wounds. Total is 1.96. Difference is approximately half a wound.

 

And I dont care- the variation in the GK numbers is much higher due to the armor save factor and the number of shots being sent downrange. One can also note:

 

10x GH- 2x PG, PF, Rhino- 220pts. Its my standard squad, 2 of them is the base of any 1500pt or greater army I run.***

 

10x GK- 2x Psycannon, Daemonhammer, Rhino- 270pts.

 

So were looking at a 23% increase in cost for an average increase of 25% firepower. However, most GK squads are going to have 2, or 4, halberds- wich puts it just slightly in the other direction.

 

As noted, this is slinging shots at ~24", assuming both squads are in a vacuum, and each doing a full salvo with all models in range.

 

But you know what? I really dont care about the math. Why? Because imperical evidence isnt standing up to it- and if hypothesis doesnt stand up to experiment then the hypothesis is wrong. There are other variables included- like the relative scarcity of 10 man strike squads, the initial softening up of targets at longer ranges than 24" by support troops, skill, cover saves, et al. Those arent so easily simulated in math-hammer, and because I find the numbers tend to be scewed by these missing variables so often I have come to disregard mathhammer as a bad habit.

 

My eyes and ears tell me that when GHs meet SS the SS loses in large part do to shooting, and that the sooner a good number of them get into assault the more likely they are to have enough bodies to actually hurt me. I trust my imperical evidence, even if it is open to experiential bias- at this point Ive only played a dozen games against the new GKs, so there hasnt been long enough for me to get all rosy about past battles.

 

 

*** Disclaimer- if I have points left over theyll get a Totem and/or PP depending on my mood, this can affect their pt value and shooting ability at shorter ranges.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Thank you, Grey Mage, I couldn't have said it better without about 4,000 years of experience, a new voice, several donkeys, etc., etc., etc.

[Grimtooth]

What happens with every new codex will happen to the GK codex;

 

Those of you that were real good GK players will grasp this codex and play well with it. People seeing the new codex and thinking instant win by dropping hundreds of dollars will get their asses handed to them and jam them up on Ebay in a heartbeat.

[Something Wycked]

lol okay, thanks for that Grey Mage... confirmed everything I said, and then said that it doesn't matter, for exactly the reasons I said my results aren't gospel truth. :cuss Glad we're on the same page.

[BrotherWasted]

GH:

13 Bolter Shots

8.7 hit

4.3 wound

1.5 die

4 Plasma Shots

2.6 hit

2.2 wound

2 die

 

Total: 3.5 die

 

SS:

Blah

Total: 2 Die

 

I wouldn't call that even, and remember that you lose more points per model than me.

 

16 Storm Bolter Shots w/ Psybolt Ammunition:

10.6 hit (2/3 chance to hit)

7.1 wound (2/3 chance to wound)

2.4 die (1/3 chance to fail armor save)

 

8 Psycannon shots (fired stationary, since you also are using Rapid Fire in your example)

5.3 hit (2/3 chance to hit)

4.5 wound (5/6 to wound)

1.5 die (1/3 chance to fail armor save)

 

Total dead: ~3.9

 

Please actually show your calculations for your opponent rather than just "blah". The math is in the favour of the Grey Knights as far as initial casualties are concerned, and I can do this at 24" range. I am completely unsure where it is you believe a Strike Squad will do 1.7 wounds with 8 stormbolters. They are Assault 2 weapons, not Assault 1; I get 16 shots, not 8.

 

I do also agree that mathhammer is not the be all and end all. Nonetheless, as I continue to state, killing MEQ using MEQ all comes down to the charge. A Grey Hunter pack does not, and simply cannot, auto-win assaults against a Grey Knight Strike Squad. If anyone forgot, this discussion started in a vacuum. In a vacuum, it is not possible to guarantee as a blanket statement that GH will auto-win against GKSS when most of the GK squad is armed with power weapons, and can gun down nearly half your squad in the same turn that it assaults.

 

All in all, I do not fear Space Wolves. I simply have no reason to.