Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Alright: 20 Storm Bolter Shots 13.3 hit 6.6 wound 2.2 die, which rounds to 2 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Alright:20 Storm Bolter Shots 13.3 hit 6.6 wound 2.2 die, which rounds to 2 Except, you didn't account for 2 Psycannons in the squad in your original math. You just went "blah" and expected everyone to take your word for it assuming the squad would be using nothing but Storm Bolters. Using S4 Stormbolters, yes, you get 2.2 dead. With Psybolt Ammunition, no. Either way, yes, a Strike Squad would technically be outshot without Psybolt Ammuntion. However, as a basic troop choice, intended to sit in cover and blast away, it would be taking the necessary shooting upgrades. Upping the Storm Bolters to S5 gives 2.4 dead with 16 shots, or 3.7 with a full payload of 20 shots. GKSS win the shooting as far as math goes. At anywhere up to 24", a Strike Squad has superior firepower, on paper. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Except, you didn't account for 2 Psycannons in the squad in your original math. You just went "blah" and expected everyone to take your word for it assuming the squad would be using nothing but Storm Bolters. Using S4 Stormbolters, yes, you get 2.2 dead. With Psybolt Ammunition, no. Either way, yes, a Strike Squad would technically be outshot without Psybolt Ammuntion. However, as a basic troop choice, intended to sit in cover and blast away, it would be taking the necessary shooting upgrades. Upping the Storm Bolters to S5 gives 2.4 dead with 16 shots, or 3.7 with a full payload of 20 shots. GKSS win the shooting as far as math goes. Well, if we're bringing upgrades into the picture, let's throw the standard Wolf Guard with CML. You see where this can become a slippery slope fairly quickly. You're upgrading the unit based on it's designated role. Let's do the same justice to the Wolves, and give 'em that CML and maybe (like in my armies) a Combi-Plasma. Actually, let's not, since if we're constantly upgrading, we lose sight of the whole issue. A bog-standard Wolf squad will outgun a bog-standard Strike Squad, and costs less. That's the simple fact of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Alright:20 Storm Bolter Shots 13.3 hit 6.6 wound 2.2 die, which rounds to 2 Except, you didn't account for 2 Psycannons in the squad in your original math. You just went "blah" and expected everyone to take your word for it assuming the squad would be using nothing but Storm Bolters. Using S4 Stormbolters, yes, you get 2.2 dead. With Psybolt Ammunition, no. Either way, yes, a Strike Squad would technically be outshot without Psybolt Ammuntion. However, as a basic troop choice, intended to sit in cover and blast away, it would be taking the necessary shooting upgrades. Upping the Storm Bolters to S5 gives 2.4 dead with 16 shots, or 3.7 with a full payload of 20 shots. GKSS win the shooting as far as math goes. At anywhere up to 24", a Strike Squad has superior firepower, on paper. However, the points are even in this case, which is what we're going for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 i really dislike when arguments turn to maths.. maths has little bearing on what happens in wargaming, only what should happen if we take and measure a certain event in a vacuum with no external factors involved. there is far too much involved in wargaming that cannot be factored by mathhammer, it has its uses im sure.. but IMO people should stop relying on it. if you want a maths based game, try su-do-ku or something of that nature. returning to the topic at hand, my personal belief is that people thought the new GK dex would be an 'i win' army.. point click.. then shake hands with the loser before making love to his girlfriend.. sadly it didnt work out like that... i DO have a few reservations about certain aspects of this dex, but the same can be said for the BA dex and SW dex.. overall im finding dexes are alot better and alot more balanced within the same edition (some exceptions are noted).. its only a good thing for wargaming that more variety is finding its way in. what i find amusing is that GK are now weaker vs daemons and stronger vs everyone else, which is about right for codex balancing, they should be an effective all rounder list. they just dont have the numbers to win big.. even with thier shiny new toys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 they just dont have the numbers to win big.. even with thier shiny new toys. Rarely do I agree with you GC, but I think you summed it up nicely. +1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Rarely do I agree with you GC :P thats true.. just dont get me started on those 'broken' servo skulls Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Rarely do I agree with you GC :P thats true.. just dont get me started on those 'broken' servo skulls I almost delved into that topic to bring up Chooser of the Slains as a comparative. (Go go 36" circle of No-Infiltrators.) What makes the Skulls so different than that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Chooser of the Slains as a comparative. never heard of it.. feel free to bring it up in that topic.. anything that advances my knowledge is good... even if it does mean im wrong about something :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 They're the Space Wolf things that the Rune Priests can take. They upgrade BS if they can see a target and prevent infiltration. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 They're the Space Wolf things that the Rune Priests always have for free. They upgrade BS if they can see a target and prevent infiltration. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 pah, dont stop scout moves though.. wouldnt affect me too badly Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 They're the Space Wolf things that the Rune Priests always have for free. They upgrade BS if they can see a target and prevent infiltration. No, you definitely have to pay for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 No, you definitely have to pay for them. Eh, I consider it mandatory and factor it into my Rune Priest buy. You're correct, of course; I just consider mine free because I consider my Rune Priests to cost more than they do. Derp. o.O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Ah, I see. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmk17 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 However, the points are even in this case, which is what we're going for. No you aren't. You are looking for the easiest way to limit your opposition by discounting what he can or would take based on points. Your numbers are skewed on every point due to preliminary bias. The problem is that you are basing the fight off equal points rather than equivalent value. Grey Hunters are the cheapest and most solid troop choice there is, hands down. So the table is stacked against EVERYTHING from the get go. You can't even get 10 Marines in a Tactical Squad for the cost of 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns. Nor can you do so with Blood Angels or Grey Knights. So by those figures, you have 10 guys with 2 special weapons vs 8 guys all with storm bolters. Of course, you have tactical and numerical advantage at that point. And the statics reflect that in the outcome. HOWEVER, like GH pointed out, Statistics don't work here. Statistics can only give accurate results if accurate data is entered. It is easy to twist 1 point and have the entire outcome stood on its ear. Speaking of data, you cannot make bricks without clay. You have not defined the squad beyond saying 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns and a Wolf Guard. Even then, your numbers are incorrect. If you have a 10 man squad of Grey Hunters and a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, how are you getting 13 bolter shots? It should be 17 if the Wolf Guard did not take a combi-weapon. (8x Bolters Rapid Fire, 1x Bolt Pistol). If the Wolf Guard does take a combi-plasma the number of Bolter shots drops to 16, but the plasma shots go up to 6. Also, your data operates under "Hmk17's Speculative First Turn Fallacy". (Where by, someone on the internet makes an army claim or statistical probability based on the notion that they have first turn.) You assume that you have X shots, because you assume you are going first. Being able to do anything first in a mini-wargame is pretty big. You can't discount the possibility of what happens when you are on the receiving end. However, if you want to play with statistics some more, Ignis here's something you can compare. Lets create these hypothetical squads. But lets make ones that would be something actually represented on the table, not half cut-off units. These are roughly even in points and in equivalent ability. 10 Grey Hunters (2 Plasma guns, MotW, WS, Powerfist) 1 Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Power Armor, Powerfist, Combi-plasma) - 253 pts. 9 Grey Knights and 1 Justicar (2 Psycannons, 8 NF Halberds, 8 Stormbolters) - 260 pts. Now for the "blah". Place each squad equidistant on the board (foot-slogging from the edge of their standard deployment zone), from them up in a horizontal line, with no terrain. Randomly choose who goes first and have fun with your numbers. Everything after that are variables based on the tactics of the players and the "luck of the dice". Tactics like the Grey Knights not moving to capitalize on their Heavy Psycannons or the luck aspect of Rending and Gets Hot!. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 And that is the precise problem with statistics. They can't be used to compare things unless we operate in a vacuum, one unit vs. one unit. That said, they can be used to give a rough comparison of the two squads. Points-wise, I was going with one of the above posters' unit composition of 10 Grey Hunters with two plasma guns and a bare-bones Wolf Guard against a ten-man Strike Squad. The Grey Knights have a slight advantage in points, but I'm sure everyone would be fine with that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Does anybody actualy take Grey Knights without Psybolt ammo? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Does anybody actualy take Grey Knights without Psybolt ammo? Does anyone take Grey Hunters without a Razorback variant? Should we factor in Assault Cannons or Lasplas or Heavy Bolters? (Considering they're dirt cheap, that'd still be under the price of a Grey Knight squad.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Does anybody actualy take Grey Knights without Psybolt ammo? Does anyone take Grey Hunters without a Razorback variant? Should we factor in Assault Cannons or Lasplas or Heavy Bolters? (Considering they're dirt cheap, that'd still be under the price of a Grey Knight squad.) I fail to see your point, of course GH's are cheaper, they don't have power weapons on every model..... It's stupid to do direct comparisons of one squad to another, we don't play a game with one squad versus one squad. The games are based on entire forces and their synergies. Comparing squads to each other is an exercise in futility. These discussions are just silly as every time one side cites an advantage the other side changes the set of circumstances to give them an advantage on paper. All this does highlight how stupid the tourney scene has become these days, for old ogs like me it's an example of how the fun hobby of yesteryear has become the stalking grounds of mini-maxing individuals who REALLY need to get out more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Does anybody actualy take Grey Knights without Psybolt ammo? I actually run more combat orientated StrikeKnights so no psycannons and no psybolt. Yes they cost more than the shooty guys but the I6 has been invaluable. I am gonna make a few shooty units to try to see how they do as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnowThyEnemy Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Just a quick comment on hmk17's assement: spot on when it comes to variables but i have a difference of opinions when it comes to points. if we're talking about strike squads (which im assuming we are), they're geared more for fire suppresion than cc awesome-sauce IMO. the halberds are a waste on them i feel, better to stick a single hammer on them on the off chance they have to hit something big or tankish. 9 out of 10 id say theyre better for laying down those 8 psycannon shots though. 10 SS + Hammer + 2xPsycannon + Psybolts = 250 (?). Leave the cc to your purifiers and terms, until the situation becomes to dire (see: they're all dead, charge!) :lol: This has nothing to do with the topic at hand of course. I say good riddance to those who jump off this gravy train because they didn't get their "auto-win" army they were looking for. For those vets who are happy (and why wouldnt you be, honestly?) and newcomers looking for something more tactical and finesse driven (for PA armies anyway), welcome aboard! SW players: you may feel like you win this matchup 99 out of 100, but theres always that 1 time...*Rocky Background Music*...when the underdog comes through... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibious Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Completly ignoring the whole mathhammer trolling... People getting off the train? Personaly I think good for the following reasons. -Lots of GK stuff has appeared on Ebay, hmm codex for £4... yes please -Less players playing GK means the less times my opponent gets used to fighting my army, gives me the unknown edge. Unlike the current DE in my area where people are building lists with hard counters to DE. Similar with Daemons -Grey Knights are meant to be Rare, imo it would be stuipd if there was more GK players than the average SM... -I loved and chose Grey Knights as my first army due to their Difficulty and coolness, people realising the new codex isnt an IWIN button proves to me that the difficulty is still there. When I win I will know its not because the GreyKnights beats everyone. -Gib- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2731968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilgar Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Isn´t it like this with every new codex, same with Tyranids at least? I think I will see alot of new GK players around, which is nice :cry: About the cost, yes I agree they are expensive, but man did we who played DH before get alot of sweaaat bits for our older metal GKs :jaw: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2732017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adir Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 About the cost, yes I agree they are expensive, but man did we who played DH before get alot of sweaaat bits for our older metal GKs ;) Absolutely! I picked up one new box of termies and one box of PAGK to round out my box. Those extra bits are amazing. My only "complaint" was that the PAGK storm bolters are clip fed... but this actually played perfectly into my robed GK conversions which also use clip fed storm bolters (hence complaint in quotes). The GKT banner is stunning and I will likely be replacing my metal heraldry shields with the new raised icon shields in plastic. The only thing that continues to bug me is the use of english words on the armor rather than the faux latin of the metal releases. Truly an insignificant issue... but I sort of wish my psycannons didn't say DEATH on them :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/4/#findComment-2732049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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