embalancer Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 returning to the topic at hand, my personal belief is that people thought the new GK dex would be an 'i win' army.. point click.. then shake hands with the loser before making love to his girlfriend..sadly it didnt work out like that... i DO have a few reservations about certain aspects of this dex, but the same can be said for the BA dex and SW dex.. overall im finding dexes are alot better and alot more balanced within the same edition (some exceptions are noted).. its only a good thing for wargaming that more variety is finding its way in. what i find amusing is that GK are now weaker vs daemons and stronger vs everyone else, which is about right for codex balancing, they should be an effective all rounder list. they just dont have the numbers to win big.. even with thier shiny new toys. Sir, this is an internet forum. Your rational and reasoned arguments are simply not welcome here ;) but to be fair if i'm reading this thread right the main complaint about the GK are that they're not an IWIN army? which means that GW made a decent codex ... if you ignore a fair bit of the fluff. I think people have become used to codex creep with each codex become progressivly more powerful. I mean for the same price as SM libby a rune priest has a 50% chance of stopping all psychic powers and gets a birdy that gives him 5BS in a certian area as well not to mention counter attack and wounds deamons much easier and like i said for the same price. Blood Angels got veterans for cheaper their apothicary could give FNP to nearby friendly units not just the unit they were in and got another bonus. (i'm sure they's more i just can't think of the top of my head) Where this codex yes they aren't as ass kicking against daemons but lets fact it in the previous DH they were that anti demonic that the designers had to give Daemons a boost in another codex surely they must have realised they screwed up some where. yes they have a lack of invuln saves but as they're such a psychic chapter you start giving everyone SS and iron halos they're gong to be far too powerful and PoW stops being scary. Lets just hope they do as good job with all the up coming codecies Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2734645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Yes, that's precisely it. The Grey Knight codex is probably one of the best codices ever produced in 5th ed., in that it's very well balanced. Almost everything that could be 'I win!' has a downside, like the Crowe tax on Purifiers, or the lack of Storm Shields on terminators and, more importantly, Paladins, meaning they are open to Instant Death. Also, the Grand Master needs to Deep Strike or get a Land Raider or Stormraven if he wants to get somewhere fast, meaning he has a downside. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2734653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 I mean for the same price as SM libby a rune priest has a 50% chance of stopping all psychic powers The Runic Weapon is only better than the Hood when your opponent is LD10 and it's only a difference of 8%. Any less than that and the hood starts to look a lot better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2735067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 I'm kinda amazed at some things in this thread... I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that people 'dont get' this codex, honestly. Everybody makes assumptions and only draws conclusions on certain lists and stuff. Bandwagoners get hit by this the most, because they choose an army based on false reasons. GH's versus GKSS's? Why? It's about a complete list you sillies. If you insist on doing it, please do it properly... Assume allcomers setups for both squads, GH's take meltas not plasmas in larger squads and are fielded in rhinos. Alternatively 5 man with a flamer in a las/plas. GKSS? Oh hey look: They DO outshoot you point for point at the 20-24" range and their Transports are hard to shake/stun. Also the fact that they have 24+" range weapons which can hurt vehicles rather well means you need less AT in other slots. Amazing isn't it, how codices totally play different? Most people are also horribad at making good lists, never mind understanding them. That's why some people don't see the fact that this codex actually DOES have a lot of decent builds. Maybe try competitive blogs like 3++, YTTH and Whiskey& 40k. In the end I do love this codex, because I knew where I was getting into. They are in a sense still a lot like the old Deamonunters, but without being totally uncompetitive. I can actually do whatever I want with this codex while I end up with a reasonable list! GKSS squads and terminators unviable? You kidding me? Almost every competitive list on the internet uses GKSS squads and quite some use terminators too. What are you trying to do with this army? Making assault lists or something? Pfff... HERO, you surprise me the most. I actually saw the stuff you tested and I'm not surprised you got bored of the army. Maybe stop playing with a 900+ point Deathstar mate :D Taste in the end is personal of course, but some things (like the amount of different builds) aren't. Give the codex some more time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2735151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Zhukov, my Grey Hunters are normally equipped with two plasma guns, given a fist, Mark of the Wulfen, and the Wolf Standard, with a Wolf Guard with a fist and a twin las Razorback. What I was using as an example is normal for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2735247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 i think zhukovs main point was that you wouldnt run your GK strike squads head on against the grey hunters, you use your halberd GKTs or purifiers instead. an army is much more than a single unit.. if armies were judged on a unit vs unit basis id be in serious trouble Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2735256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Zhukov, my Grey Hunters are normally equipped with two plasma guns, given a fist, Mark of the Wulfen, and the Wolf Standard, with a Wolf Guard with a fist and a twin las Razorback. What I was using as an example is normal for me. Is that a 6 man squad or is it on foot? Either way it's heavily overgeared and GKSS will beat this 1 on 1. How? You got a ~26" range max, assuming you deploy from the razor which moved 12". (or you are on foot; lol) GKSS squads have 38"(!) range this way. What does this mean? GKSS squads get to strike first. More: You'll probably lose important guys because of wound allocation, GKSS squads don't because you don't inflict enough wounds to force saves on Psycannons. You lose guys, shoot back, then you are still within Psycannon range and thus next turn the GKSS squad don't have to move and so shoot with 'heavy' psycannons. Then you either charge while shooting some bolt pistols and probably die because you only have a men few left or you rapd fire again (plasmaguns might be dead but oh well) and then die next turn to shoot + a charge. I can do the math for you, but I can assure you: GKSS squads being played in this way (read: GK's played like GK's, not somebody who thinks GK's are more expensive marines) will beat a GH squad head-on EVERY damn time. And that's with an allcomers GKSS squad against a specialised GH squad. (double plasma, 2 fists and MoTW? Seriously?) So yeah, theoryhammer in cases like this is kinda retarded; you can too easy simulate situations which favour 1 side, which I just did. But what GC08 says is also true, my main point is that trying to say GKSS suck compared to GH's doesn't mean anything, GKSS makes that your army plays completely different. I'm looking forward to play against good SW lists with my GK's, should be interesting battles. It's not a shame btw if GK's in the end aren't as good as SW: SW is arguably the best codex (although just barely, they aren't OP or something) On the other hand GC08 is wrong: I would use my GKSS squads against GH's :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2735274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 theory hammer has its place, but as said wars are not fought in a vacuum (we have battle fleet gothic for that :D ). I quite like the grey knight codex, apart from the issues that need a faq, they are expensive marines, and should be treated as that (having played quite a few games with a terminator heavy logan wing I'm looking forward to trying out my draigo wing). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2735282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 On the other hand GC08 is wrong: I would use my GKSS squads against GH's :D this is commendable, and understandable... after all i use scouts vs GH... and win on occassion too :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2735297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Zhukov, it's a ten man squad on foot. I have a tendency to run lists and units that would be considered weak, worthless, or strange by many and do well with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2735303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Zhukov, it's a ten man squad on foot. I have a tendency to run lists and units that would be considered weak, worthless, or strange by many and do well with them. Then you are probably a good player. Skill goes a long, long way in this game (happily!). Unfortunately >90% of all 40k discussions are focused on improving lists or discussing units, while discussing actual tactics and ways of improving one his skill would be much more valuable to people. It's rather easy to explain why this is the case though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227877-reverse-bandwagoneering/page/5/#findComment-2735310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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