GK Strike Squads

[Master Exorcist]

hey guys i'm starting up my old grey knights army.

I was wondering whether it would be more viable in a balanced list to have a squad of 10 PAGKs rather than 2 squads of 5, or if i should just run with only 5 and take some interceptors instead.

 

What are you guys thoughts on this?

 

any help will be appreciated, thanks.

 

ME

[Something Wycked]

In a vacuum, squads of 5 are more versatile than a squad of 10, but the full size squad is of course more survivable. They won't fulfill the jump infantry role you want the Interceptors for, but they can deep strike.

 

It depends on a lot of things. What kind of list are you running around these choices?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is how I currently run mine:

 

10x Grey Knight:

> 5x pairs of Nemesis falchions

> 2x psycannon

> psybolt ammo

Rhino:

> dozer blades

> warp stabilization field

 

I'd like to add a Nemesis Daemonhammer as well. Basically this is an elite unit you can field as a troop choice. The Nemesis falchions provides the additional attacks needed to make them work well as an assault squad.

 

You can always field a full unit and split them into combat squads.

 

G :cuss

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Keep them as cheap as possible, they're okay but not great.

 

10 guys, master crafted daemon hammer on the Justicar, 2 psycannons. Rhino. 275 points

 

Throw on psybolt ammunition if you can spare the points.

 

They are a shooty unit that can offer a challenge in assault. They're not a dedicated assault unit, get Purifiers or terminators for that.

[Galadren]

Keep them as cheap as possible, they're okay but not great.

 

10 guys, master crafted daemon hammer on the Justicar, 2 psycannons. Rhino. 275 points

 

Throw on psybolt ammunition if you can spare the points.

 

They are a shooty unit that can offer a challenge in assault. They're not a dedicated assault unit, get Purifiers or terminators for that.

 

Pretty much how I've been running mine. I do throw on the Psybolt ammo as I look at it this way, shoot first and do as many wounds as possible, then assault and finish them off with the power weapons. Close combat should never be your primary choice with Strike Squads.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One attack apiece is meh. Falchions are not all that expensive really. Can make a huge difference too. No way I wouldn't take psybolt ammo for a full squad. I think it's a must.

 

G :cuss

[TyrionTheImp]

One attack apiece is meh. Falchions are not all that expensive really.

 

Okay, so you're putting 5 Falchions at 10 points A PIECE into your squads. That's 50 points. That is incredibly wasteful to try and give a unit which has no CC ability, mediocre CC ability.

 

Strike Squads are NOT and never will be a close combat unit. They're better in assault than most troops, and better at shooting than most troops, but they just aren't resilient enough to really warrant close combat upgrades. Unless you're running a Daemon hammer that's master crafted to give them defense against walkers and the odd chance of bashing that rear armor of a tank in.

 

Why do you also need to spend 10 extra points on your rhino? So you can re-roll the 1/6 chance of getting immobilized when you go into difficult terrain (which isn't terribly hard to avoid anyways), and to be able to use a gimmicky teleport trick with your librarian? Rhinos are supposed to be cheap so when they die it's no loss. They're there to move you maybe 1 or 2 turns, and then maybe shield your guys from being attacked for a turn after.

 

10 man squads give you more bodies and this is true, this also provides an extra Psycannon slot. On the other hand, if you play MSU, you don't have to worry about your big squad getting killed, 5 man with a psycannon and a heavy bolter razorback with psybolts makes an excellent choice if you want to play the MSU game. Either way works really, even I haven't decided which one I want to use.

 

Either way, keep them simple and keep them cheap. A full squad probably warrants the psybolt ammo as the cost is more spread out.

[Master Exorcist]

Thanks for the suggestions guys,

 

It depends on a lot of things. What kind of list are you running around these choices?

 

To be perfectly honest, im not entirely sure, i bought the book a few days ago. The only definite atm are a librarian and a large squad of terminators. I will likely include purifiers, purgators, Dreadknight, Culexis, Redeemer, and the incarnate of Grimdark Karamazov. Oh and space monkeys....there will be space monkeys. :cuss

 

MSU? im a little hazy on abbreviations...

 

Hope this helps with suggestions....

ME

 

PS what do you guys think the standard special weapon should be for PAGK squads? (any flavour)

[Something Wycked]

I'd go with Tyrion's suggestions then, since you're looking at running a fairly balanced army list- keep the Strike Squads cheap. That can mean doing this:

 

Hammer, pair of psycannons, maybe psybolt ammo, and a rhino (or skip the rhino if you'll be deep striking).

 

Or cheap can mean keeping it to 5 men.

 

However, if you're taking a large squad of Terminators and only 5 models in a Strike Squad, you're paying 500+ points for two Troop choices with only 15 wounds; with a Librarian and Inquisitor as your HQ's, you won't be getting any additional scoring models from Crowe or Grand Strategy, and objectives games might be difficult for you.

[TyrionTheImp]

MSU means Multiple Small Units. It's a very popular way of playing, it really jacks up your kill points in the army, but it minimizes loss when a unit is destroyed.

 

Basically, if you lose a squad of 10 GKSS, that's a 200+ point loss that's more than 10% of your 2000 point army. However, if you're playing with squads of 5 the loss becomes much less drastic. If you're assaulted the unit will be wiped and whatever assaulted you is open to be shot to pieces, or if someone shoots at it with a full squad, it's likely they'll waste shots shooting at models already dead (overshooting basically). Usually the smaller squad size is made up with by taking more slots, particularly if you want to maximize your Razorback amount.

 

Marines of any type can do MSU well because of And They Shall Know No Fear means you can ALWAYS regroup if the odd single model survives, and Combat Squads means we can fit 2 units in a slot that would normally take 1. Fearless armies (like Deathwing) can do it better because morale becomes moot, another reason why Purifiers are popular. Grey Knights can do it because their Razorbacks have Fortitude, making it very difficult to stop them from shooting, and increasing their Strength on heavy bolters with psybolt ammo.

 

From what you listed, good luck fitting that in a list, honestly, GK's are expensive enough that you cannot fit a diverse amount of units unless you take one offs which are usually...well...useless. However, you do have to remember that Grey Knight TROOPS are basically equivalent to ELITES in other armies. Literally, terminators are elites in most other armies (barring Loganwing and Deathwing), and GKSS all have force weapons. Despite this though, they are still marines and die just as easily as guys who cost 5 points less per model.

[DevianID]

In refrence to falchions being too expensive, I think it will depend on if the FAQ grants +2 attacks for a pair of falchions, or clarifies that they only want you to have +1 attack for the falchions.

 

If they grant +2 attacks total, then 5 falchions, 2 regular guys, and 2 pcannons bring 24 power weapon and 4 regular attacks on the charge, or 17 PW and 2 regular attacks when not charging. The squad, at 280 for 2 pcannons, 5 falchions and 1 hammer, is not too expensive to be unplayable, and fits nicely in a rhino.

[number6]

Okay, so you're putting 5 Falchions at 10 points A PIECE into your squads. That's 50 points. That is incredibly wasteful to try and give a unit which has no CC ability, mediocre CC ability.

 

Strike Squads are NOT and never will be a close combat unit. They're better in assault than most troops, and better at shooting than most troops, but they just aren't resilient enough to really warrant close combat upgrades. Unless you're running a Daemon hammer that's master crafted to give them defense against walkers and the odd chance of bashing that rear armor of a tank in.

 

Why do you also need to spend 10 extra points on your rhino? So you can re-roll the 1/6 chance of getting immobilized when you go into difficult terrain (which isn't terribly hard to avoid anyways), and to be able to use a gimmicky teleport trick with your librarian? Rhinos are supposed to be cheap so when they die it's no loss. They're there to move you maybe 1 or 2 turns, and then maybe shield your guys from being attacked for a turn after.

 

10 man squads give you more bodies and this is true, this also provides an extra Psycannon slot. On the other hand, if you play MSU, you don't have to worry about your big squad getting killed, 5 man with a psycannon and a heavy bolter razorback with psybolts makes an excellent choice if you want to play the MSU game. Either way works really, even I haven't decided which one I want to use.

 

Either way, keep them simple and keep them cheap. A full squad probably warrants the psybolt ammo as the cost is more spread out.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :P

 

And truly, this is exactly the same situation we had with the old PAGKs in the old DH codex. GKs were both shootier and assaultier than most other enemy Troops -- and were approximately equivalent to most army's Elites choices -- but we could never mistake PAGKs for being badass assaulters or truly frightening shooters.

 

The new codex hasn't changed that dynamic in the slightest. Strike Squads are still better shooters and close combatants than most enemy Troops choices -- and are approximately equivalent to most army's Elites choices -- but that doesn't actually make them badass assaulters or truly frightening shooters.

 

Don't overspend on your Strike Squads. Keep them cheap, keep them focused and on task. In a vacuum, I think it's hard to argue with 5 Strikers, 1 psycannon, and a psybolt Razorback. 160 pts of bargain shooting, scoring, resilience, and flexibility. Daemon hammer on the Justicar can be a reasonable option as well, making the unit yet more versatile, but it's not strictly necessary.

 

Again, in a vacuum, I also like the 10 Strikers, 2 psycannons, justicar w/hammer, all in a Rhino. That's a solid general purpose scoring unit for the reasonable price of 270 pts.

 

Whether either of those units are suitable for your army list is a question only you can answer. It could be that neither will really work out well. You might be better off deep striking them, or using Terminators, or what have you. There is no One Best Unit Loadout anymore. It's all about how units integrate in the context of a complete army list.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like I said 1 attack apiece is meh. I am new to this army and am not going to let myself get trapped into the wisdom of the old fuddie duddies. There are lots of cool new stuff you can do. If you don't want to take advantage of a unit with all force weapons that is fine but don't knock someone else. It always amazes how people are so pennywise when it comes to designing an army.

 

G :lol:

[number6]

It always amazes how people are so pennywise when it comes to designing an army.

Because it works. :lol:

 

Hey, if you like spending points upgrading your Strikeknights, go to town! If it works for you, great!

 

I dislike that approach and feel it's better to play MSU, but YMMV. Such is life. :sweat:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It works better for some armies such as SW or IG. it's too early to say it work well for the new codex. I am a competitive tourney player so I need lists that can beat the top armies. The old GK were not really a competitive army if you're honest with yourself. That's why I am looking at new ways to play the army that are now available with the new options. :)

 

G :D

[TyrionTheImp]

You're a competitive tourney player advocating spending excessive points on a basic troop unit? What? ;)

 

Strike Squads aren't a CC unit, and very few Grey Knight units in the codex can claim they are. Increasing the number of attacks strike squads get in close combat won't mean crap as dedicated CC units will still rip through you, and non-Dedicated CC units you should be able to kill without the extra attacks. In fact giving them extra attacks just means you're more likely to kill them on the turn you charge, and then you're stuck in the open getting shot up.

 

If you want to beat top tier armies using the Grey Knight codex, giving falchions to increase your CC power to any unit (unless they DO give +2 attacks in which case I will be stunned) is not the way. Grey Knights lack good enough invuln saves (in ANY unit) to actually be able to stand up to other armies' CC-units. The only way to counter-act that is to give halberds so you're hitting before most other armies or hitting at the same time. There's a reason why purifiers and GKT's are seen as the "close combat" units of the army, if such a thing actually exists in the book.

 

As for not "Taking advantage" of force weapons, they all have force weapons, not taking advantage of that fact would be saying "never charge with your Grey Knights!" which is stupid as they can maul most other armies' troops easily. I'm not advocating avoiding assault with your Strike Squads, but I am advocating not tooling them up with unneeded weaponry to superfluously increase their ability in assault.

 

Basically to sum up:

 

Strike Squads with falchions will still lose to dedicated CC-units, but Strike Squads without falchions will still easily handle non-dedicated CC units, so you're spending 50 points to make them better against something they're already good against.

 

If I were to take 4 Strike Squads using 5 falchions as you suggest, that's 200 points. 10% of your army in 2000 points, that's a unit of terminators who can output more attacks at I6 than you've gained, and give extra 2+ save bodies, or even another Strike Squad of 10, who can put out more attacks, more shooting, and very important in GK armies, more bodies.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I just can't follow your philosophy. You are simply advocating playing the old way in my opinion. If that is how you want to play them fine but you shouldn't expect everyone else to do the same. I think you are underestimating the force weapon.

 

G ;)

[greatcrusade08]

assault is initiative driven, which is why charatcers are important.. PWs striking before marines is nasty.

some GK squads have I6 halberds, if you want to win in assault take these options over strike squads, even armed with falchions they will feel an assault by an average HQ and retinue

[andrewm9]

The nifty thing about Grey Knights is that I can make any unit initiative 10 and Strength 5. So if I am packing a squad of 10 with with the falchions then I am getting 31 to 41 attacks on the charge (depending on how you view the falchion rules) on initiative 10 at Strength 5. I don't need to activate my force weapons most of the time unless I'm facing lots of multiwound models. Grey Knight Librarians are the awesome and Quicksilver is makes them even more so.

[number6]

The old GK were not really a competitive army if you're honest with yourself.

At least since the advent of 5th edition, I've never claimed otherwise. :P

 

I'm not really sure what these "old ways" are that you're talking about, though. :) New codex, new rules, new units ... yeah.

 

For all the reasons outlined by TyrionTheImp, I have never played any of my 40K armies with lots of bling on their units. A few necessary upgrades (e.g., taking psycannons when/where you can in GK armies), sure, but beyond that, I've always believed that More Is Better. Where "More" in this case means more bodies, more units. Which I feel gives the army more power, more redundancy, more resilience, more flexibility.

 

There are very few units in very few GK army lists where I would consider taking falchions. Why spend points when the units already do pretty much what they need to do without spending anything else on them? Just as you can't seem to fathom MSU, I have never fathomed the attraction to shiny blinged-out units.

 

IMHO, cheap/basic in an overall list build usually leads to stronger armies. This is not "old ways". It's a list-building strategy that applies to any 40K army. You seem to be claiming that this simply isn't true with GKs.

 

I'm not going to argue with you about which way is better. But I will always disagree with the statement that MSU simply doesn't work for GKs. That's patently untrue.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So you are saying five pairs of falchions is a lot of bling? I think that is something along the lines of YMMV. :)

 

G :P

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

GK Strike Squads, what is the best way to run them?

 

At your opponent. Running away from your opponent shows cowardice.

 

ZING. I will be here all night. Try the veal.

[TyrionTheImp]

So you are saying five pairs of falchions is a lot of bling? I think that is something along the lines of YMMV. ;)

 

G ^_^

 

Yes, that's 50 points of bling, it's a lot. I've already said taking 4 squads of Strike Squads with Falchions costs you 200 points extra and said what that's equivalent to. How is that not a lot of bling?

 

Grey Knights cannot afford to bring the bling, when your cheapest troop choice (outside of Inquisition Warbands) costs 20 per model you simply cannot spend extra to make them more (slightly) offensively viable, especially when they are no tougher to kill than a basic C:SM marine or even a Grey Hunter who costs 5 points less. You need more bodies, and by getting more bodies you also get more attacks, more shooting, more survivability, more everything really, while your Falchions just mean if your squad gets Plasma'd you're SOL.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I suppose really it's the K.I.S.S. principle (and no, not the band ^_^ ).

 

Over time, when I look at a list I've been using for three or four games in a row, I ask myself if there's any part of it I'm not using or that has never come up. Frag and Krak grenades in previous editions are a good example. If it never came up for three or four games in a row, I then ask myself why it's still in the list. If I don't really have a good answer or it's some "if a butterfly flaps it's wings in China and a tsunami hits the west coast..." type chain of esoteric conditions, I axe it from the list.

 

This tends to give me extra points that let me squeeze in additional units or extra models. In a variation of my Witch Hunters list, axing all the extra armor from vehicles (at the more expensive IA2 rates) and dropping one or two DCA's let me add a heroine, or would let me buy two extra transports, and so on and so forth. Doing it this way let me gradually trim the list down to the bare essentials, and then lets me decide what extras I really want, versus things that I just don't need or have never come up.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Typically how I build a list is to take all the options/upgrades I want. I then let the list sit for a day or two then come back, take a good look and remove what I feel is non essential. I'm not going to remove all the options/upgrade but I will redistribute points where I see fit. Next I will play some games to test the list - theory hammer is all well and good but it's no substitute for practical gaming experience. What some might see as bling I might see as an option that is effective versus a wide variety of other codices. I would rather have a hard hitting army overall rather than MSU. There is a lot of redundancy built into any SM army by design of their respective codices and I believe that is very much the case with Grey Knights in general - stormbolters, psycannons and force weapons immediately come to mind. Psychic powers such as Hammerhand are built into units for the basic cost. Five pairs of falchions at the cost of 50 points for a Strike squad gives you an additional five S5 attacks that ignore armor saves. Couple that with the charge bonus and you should decimate a squad of Grey Hunters - to me those points are well worth it. Sure there are other units in the codex that are better geared for melee but coming back to the subject of redundancy it ties right into that philosophy well.

 

G :D