GK Strike Squads

[Daedalus Templarius]

So...

 

Razorback with psybolts w/ 5/6 man strike squad (1 psycannon)

 

or

 

Rhino with 5/6 man strike squad (1 psycannon)

 

Razorback might be better once it gets to its destination, but it can't fire if it moves at cruising speed, while the rhino's psycannon passenger can, albeit 2 shots instead of 4. I am trying to decide which would be better to take.

[Zhukov]

Razorback might be better once it gets to its destination, but it can't fire if it moves at cruising speed, while the rhino's psycannon passenger can, albeit 2 shots instead of 4. I am trying to decide which would be better to take.

No, you can't fire from the hatch when moving more than 6". Difference is you have to disembark from the Razor if you want to shoot with the GK's.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Damn, I thought it just counted as your troops having moved if you moved at cruising speed.

 

I guess having some s6 firing 36" is helpful though, in addition to 24" of psycannon once you get your troops out on top of an objective with cover.

[TyrionTheImp]

The Heavy Psybolter really helps because it adds another range band, and GK Razors are only harder to stop stun/shake, not any faster, so shorter range weapons can be kited.

 

Lascannons could be a good choice to give extra long range kick, but is it really worth the extra points on an AV11 platform, where for a mere 5 points more you get a weapon that adds another range band and can support your infantry quite well? Lascannons are particularly expensive when you take that cost and multiply it by the number you're taking.

[BrotherWasted]

Heavy Bolters don't really kill Marines or Sisters, though - it doesn't really support your infantry that well. You really need to take a look at every other army that runs MSU-style lists; Lascannons or Las/Plas are all over the place and they still pay 35pts for the upgrade usually. Against hordes, your Grey Knights already have enough firepower in 5-man squads to make up for the more focused shooting of the Razor. Seriously, if you have a Psycannon and Lascannon (either Razor variant) in your squad, you can take on anything at 24" - which is our sweet spot.

 

Upgrading your Razorbacks gives you access to rare AP2 weaponry, as well. In an all-comers list, that's not something that should be overlooked. You can snipe heavy tanks on the advance and once you get to mid-field, your stationary Razors can be putting out valuable automatic wounds.

[TyrionTheImp]

So? Killing effectiveness doesn't mean anything when you're pumping out 3 accurate S6 shots from 6 razorbacks, and they're dirt cheap, that's the point. Marines go down to torrented fire like everything else does, it's all about application. Marines making all their saves? Charge them, you've got NFW's, use them, or stay out of their sweet spot of 12" or less. The point of the heavy psybolter razor isn't to kill, you should have other things for that, but to overload your opponent's AV busting abilities by putting inexpensive, but VERY annoying AV11 in front of them and not caring whether it's blown up.

 

Grey Knights are Expensive enough, getting a single lascannon shot or a Lascannon and plasma gun for 35 points just doesn't seem worth it to me. AV 11 just isn't impressive enough for me to put Lascannons on when the troopers they carry are 20 points a piece minimum.

 

You say look at every other army, but GK's are not every other army, and shouldn't be treated as such.

[TyrionTheImp]

I didn't even talk about cover either. What if marines are in cover? Lascannon gets a 50/50 chance, Heavy Psybolter doesn't care. Both wound on a 2+, difference is I get 3 shots to your 1, I have higher damage potential, and I didn't spend 35 points to get it. Force your opponents to roll enough dice and they'll fail them eventually, and if I can shoot 36" and not care about cover and still get the maximum effectiveness out of my Razorbacks then you bet I'm torrenting the crap out of those marines.

 

With your lascannon or even las/plas, you have to get marines out in the open and unbostructed, this requires you to move which means you probably couldn't shoot both las and plas if you had it, and both those weapons still only wound on a 2+. Then there's the rate of fire issue, with a las/plas you're 2 shots, unless you're rapid firing which then you're too close anyways, then you're 3. So I would say, if you could fire both Lascannon and Rapid fire plasma at marines in the open, then yes, Las/plas is better, otherwise...is it REALLY TRULY worth 35 points?

 

I don't even see how talking about Marines is a valid argument when trying to promote the Lascannon on a razorback...

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I think the point is that Grey Knights with psycannon already have the mid range, medium strength firepower sewn up. Lascannon on Razorbacks provide something they don't have, range and high strength.

[TyrionTheImp]

36" Isn't medium range, at least I don't think so. If they're transporting your squads, do they NEED to be 48" range anyways? I think not.

 

High strength doesn't mean diddly when you have to shell out and make your already small army smaller. I'd much rather take the points I'd use for Lascannons and get more Strike Squads and more heavy bolter backs. Psycannons are perfectly fine against most armor, heck 2/3s of the time on 6's they penetrate Land Raiders, Lascannons penetrate them on 6's too. Difference is Psycannon costs a fraction of the amount of it and is able to be put on every squad, don't forget the extra shots too.

 

Lascannons just simply aren't useful in GK armies. Psyflemen have long range anti-tank covered, heavy psybolter and psycannons can de-mech anything that gets closer in just sheer amounts of shots you can put out coupled with their S6/S7 nature, and you can get far more of them than lascannons.

[BrotherWasted]

Alreadty small? I can put out the same number of models any Marine Codex who uses Razorback Spam tactics.

 

Lascannons or Las/Plas allow you to cover threats on your way to midfield. It lets you take down threats first turn from across the board. The entire board is NOT covered in terrain - unless your opponent holds everything in reserve, there will be something to take a shot at. Lascannons have scored precious wounds on HQ units or broken enemy transports first turn many a time. Heavy Bolters cannot do that from such range. Combined with the other long range units in the list, you get to take down things and breeze your way to midfield where you spray down the rest as they advance.

 

4x Lascannons or Las/Plas upgrades across your army are 140pts. Not even the cost of a Vindicare, will also NOT let me afford another 5-man plus Razorback w/ Psybolts, and can wipe out much more in terms of points than a Heavy Bolter. You cannot buy more heavy bolters if you cannot afford more squads to give them to. Of course, I run 4x of these AND a Vindi, plus 3x Psi-Riflemen. Range isn't even the issue - it's that scary AP2 shots that these bring to the army.

 

I would go ahead and say that TLLC are not really worth considering, but having those Plasma Guns at 24" helps a lot. 2 Shots from your tank that will ignore saves are better than 3 that can barely even penetrate a Rhino.

 

Lascannon Razors present a threat to your opponent that a Heavy Bolter may not compare to.

[TyrionTheImp]

Yet you claim to only be using 4 of these Strike Squad units. 20 scoring bodies? Really, that's enough? Still die like marines. Maybe it works for you, but I find Strike Squads good enough to go for the full 6.

 

"On your way to midfield" is a long distance...about a short hop and a skip. If you're moving, you can shoot one gun, so the non-twinlinked Lascannon which can whiff, or not do diddly even if it does hit. Why even have the plasma if you're moving? These aren't BA Razors where you're awesome and Fast! So 35 points for guns you can't use at full capacity if you're moving, real convincing.

 

The entire board can be covered in terrain. If one assumes that you're playing with the 25% outline in the BRB (I try to, don't you?), plus vehicles which good players use to make terrain and thus cover, a good amount of your opponent's army can be covered and not much you can do about it. What precious HQ's is your lascannon scoring wounds on? Tyranid monsters? Mephiston? Not many HQ's wander about alone. Not being twinlinked makes your lascannon more prone to whiffing, and yeah, you are more likely to blow up transports, but Psyflemen do the same for better. How much transport killing do you need exactly if you're bringing that much? There's more than one way to skin a cat too, other parts of the list can make up for not having lascannons on the razorbacks.

 

4x Las/Plas is 140 points, that's 20 points short of another squad with the Heavy psybolter razor. Another target, more bodies, another psycannon. More is always better. Why are you bring AP2 back again? AP (unless it's 1) only applies to Infantry, and with cover saves abundant the heavy psybolter is superior against anything not a MC (and they aren't shabby at laying wounds on those either), and I would argue even out of cover it's still got a high damage potential. S6 means T4 and worse is wound on a 2+. I did mention it's only 5 points right, not 35?

 

I like this next part the best. TLLC isn't worth it but the Las/plas is, on a non-fast Razorback. So you sit still and expect that your tank won't be blown up if you're within 24" to use the plasma too? "2 shots that ignore saves is better than 3 that can barely penetrate a rhino" Okay, so you're comparing infantry killing power to tank killing power, what? You don't use the heavy psybolter on rhinos, though you could, but that's why you have Psycannons and pysflemen, and I needn't mention the "5th Edition has a lot of cover" thing again do I, oh and we're still clear that we're wounding on the same dice rolls on most infantry, 2+ right?

 

And you finish up with talking about lascannons when you said TLLC razors suck, and seemed to be so enamored by the plasma guns which I've given multiple reasons to how it's inferior to the psybolter back.

 

It's been proven to me that weight of fire is VASTLY superior to single higher strength shots, I'd much rather take the 12 S6 Psybolter shots (and 140 odd points extra that come with it) over the 4 non twin-linked lascannons, and 4 twin linked plasma shots that I probably won't be able to use at the same time because my Razorbacks aren't fast, or to great effect because of the rules of 5th Edition.

 

Do the lascannons threaten a wider range of targets? Sure they do, but are they needed or worth the 35 points you pay for them? Not to me they aren't, and the plasmas are "meh" too. I don't feel like you gain anything that's REALLY needed by spending the points.

 

Also when one of your Razors are blown up, that's 80 points out the tube, mine are only 50, and I have 5 more of them. Doesn't decrease my combat ability a lot, because I didn't invest a large amount of points into them, but what I get out of them far exceeds what I could get out of a las/plas Razor.

[iamnothere]

Looking at this reminded me of a recent game where I desperately needed the range and tank killyness of lascannons to take out battlewagons. 3 of them. But when you do the math even after I'd hit I would still need (1/3 * 1/2) 1/6 chance to have any effect, between cover and AV14 it would have been pointless me shooting at them.

 

Which is why I'm not running razors with my list. What I do need though is a way to stop AV 14 at range.

[BrotherWasted]

Except your reasons for the Psybolter being superior don't stand up to what my army requires.

 

5 more Razorbacks? We haven't even discussed point levels of my army, let alone the extra 500+ points you need to spend in order to GET the squads who can even take those extra 5 Razorbacks. You would need to be running basically ONLY Strike Squads and a barebones Inquisitor to get 9 Razorbacks over my 4. Dropping the Vindicare does make room for another squad + Razor in my list, but I've found it not necessary right now.

 

Need I also remind you that:

 

A. Cover saves tend to be worse when a model's armor save is superior to the cover save. AP2 weaponry forces MEQ and TEQ to make use of less beneficial saves. Your AP4 weapons don't mean jack when a model with 3+ armor is in a building. Las and/or plas will force those models to use inferior saving rolls, not to mention inflict more casualties when that squad is out in the open. I would rather give a person 2 saves to make with a 4+ cover save than three shots with a 3+ armor save, even if this means sometimes keeping the Razorback stationary. This works quite well when you're at 18" and preparing to charge into cover, move your Razor 6" alongside your squad, open fire with the full squad and charge.

B. Having two weapons makes it that much more harder for your Razors to be immobilised. Your little HB Razorbacks will get their HB destroyed the first time, leaving it with twice the odds of getting immobilised (a wonderful little thing with Psy-Riflemen is that they tend to do this quite often, scoring multiple 3s on damage rolls). A Las/Plas Razor requires both the Las and PLas to be destroyed before it can be immobilised on a roll of 3.

C. Many anti-tank weapons will be able to destroy a Razor regardless of whether it is 24" or 36" away - even if you moved.

D. I said "HQ units". This means bypassing the FnP and Armor Saves of those HQ and bodyguards, IDing any Tau Battlesuit (HQ or not), and yes, it also does mean sniping a Hive Tyrant through his fence units, ignoring his 3+ upgrade now and again as well - the Razorback tends to be tall enough granting terrain to take away any cover save they would get by hiding within units. Heavy Bolters grant them an Armor Save. Mech is HEAVY in my area, so, YES - I need the hardest hitting anti-tank shots that I can muster and unleash as quick as possible. Three Rifleman just does not cut it first turn, while it pops transports fine, it doesn't pop enough of them. My army needs high strength shots wherever possible to take stuff out BEFORE I establish a midfield presence. Psycannons can tear armor apart in turns 3-5 when both armies have gotten closer. Until then, I want to take down as much armor as I can, and that means taking Lascannon-variant Razors.

 

Removing threats turn 1 often stops them being a nuisance on turn 2. It's as simple as that.

 

@iamnothere: Psy-Riflemen do the job alright of glancing AV14, but scoring Penetrating hits on AV14 outside 24" is not something the GK do well. You have the Vindicare, Lascannons (be they Jokaero, Razorback or Land Raider), Orbital Strike Relays, Conversion Beamers, which all sound great, but taking some of these strips points from other things that are usually more useful like Dreads, Henchmen or Purifiers.

 

For the sake of argument, my 1750 list currently looks a little like this:

 

HQ: OX Inquisitor w/ Rad + Psykotroke, Power Sword

Elites: 9+1 Purifiers, 4 Psycannons, 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, Rhino

Elites: Vindicare Assassin

Troops: 4x 4+1 Strike Squad, Psycannon, Hammer, Las/Plas Razorback

Heavy: 3 Riflemen Dreads

 

1750 on the dot.

 

Dropping the Las/Plas and replacing it with Psybolts for the HB only leaves me with 120. That's only enough for five men with a Psycannon and Hammer, without a Transport. Hardly worth it in an MSU list.

[TyrionTheImp]

Your list confuses me and doesn't help your argument at all. I'd pick it apart, but then we're getting even more off topic.

 

I always fit 6 Razorback Strike Squads, into even 1750. They're good enough that I see no reason to skimp on them. Troops win games, and these troops kill too, why not bring them?

 

A. Yes, you're forcing worse saves, but it's a difference 1/6th, 3+ to a 4+, usually. Okay, so you're paying 30 points for a 1/6th increase in damage potential? Not worth it. And you're right my AP4 weapons don't mean jack when I'm firing at a 3+ model in a building, that's the point I've been trying to make. To get maximum output from your las/plas they have to be out in the open, I don't care where mine are and I'll still get the most out of them.

 

B. The two weapons argument is null. An immobilized Razor I could care less about, even if it's gun-less. I always like more terrain on my boards anyways. Oh, right mine only costs 50 points, yours is still 80 right? So again you're paying 30 points for something that helps about 1/6th of the time, and only really when that 1/6th of a time is rolled twice. Mine are cheap, yours almost cost a Dakka Pred in C:SM, but output less and die far easier.

 

C. Many anti-tank weapons WILL destroy Razorbacks from long range, again difference is I don't care if it's dead it was 50 points (much like how I use my rhinos in C:SM), versus 80 points are gone and I didn't do anything with it. GK's don't need transports to be good or get to their primary range band, 24" when majority of armies have to get closer to really deal out damage. I'd like to point out the fact you can still Deep Strike with Strike Squads so anything that does have longer range than you, suddenly can't shoot you before you get in their face. Fun, right?

 

D. Don't know what Tau you're playing where they don't have those fat devilfish to block LoS/give cover from. 4 (not even twin-linked) Lascannon shots aren't going to make a huge impact on your transport killing power, it just doesn't work like that, the nature of the Vehicle Damage chart prevents that. You'll be able to disable (whether stun, shake, or what not) but probably not kill any more significantly than you would without them.

 

I think you're still missing my point though. Las/plas Razors aren't bad, if they were bad they wouldn't work in other MSU armies, but just because they do work in other armies doesn't mean they automatically fit into the GK army cut and dry. The cost of the upgrade just doesn't work out to be worth it in my opinion, while the 5 point upgrade increases the utility a lot for a minimal price.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I dont think MSU is going to work for GK since everything is so expensive. You can use some MSU but not in totality.

 

G :)

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Why not MLU? Footslog / deepstrike 60 Strike Squad marines in a 1500 point list. DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND?

 

PS - MLU stands for Multiple Large Units.

[Gentlemanloser]

They would get abused by Palsma Cannons, Dark Reapers, MLs, Blasters, etc.

 

I don't think PAGK outside of transports can work. They are too expesnive to be killed by the wealth of marine killers out there.

 

If you want to DS/Footslog, then you're really looking at Pallies, NDKs and Dreads.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Oh lol, S6 heavy bolters. Like anyone actually cares. If you're not taking a Rhino to get every a ride, at least bring a decent gun to the fight with a Razorback. Knights have anti-infantry coming out of their ears, AP2/long rage/tank-killing (as opposed to simply supression) is our glaring weakness in terms of shooting. Short of Raiders or Ravens, you won't find lascannon anywhere else (well maybe monkeys, but you need Coteaz to do that trick).

 

Twin-las is my preference (because I roll 1's like a pro, even on the re-roll), but I can see the utility of las+twin plasma turret (it lets you kill heavy infantry/MC/FNP shenanigans without having to charge in necessarily).

 

I mainly bring Razors as light tanks, their transportation abilities are secondary (cos I can always use them as mobile cover without need to combat squad/buy tiny easily killable combat squads of anything). Advancing with your PsyDreads as a screen to your walking Purifiers (Strike squads should be Deepstriking, you pay for it) is great, because unlike Rhino wall you're putting out meaningful firepower from Turn 1, rather than Turn 2/3 (which is when your psycannons are finally close enough to reach something). Pop smoke and cast 'Shrouding' to waste an enemy shooting phase, cast 'Shrouding' in subsequent turns to keep the infantry behind the armour wall alive (or at least unattractive as a target).

[BrotherWasted]

I'm curious as to how that list would look at 1750 - I don't see 3 Psy-riflemen fitting in there with a full squad of Purifiers + 4 Psycannons and a 180pt Librarian HQ.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Maybe I don't spam PsyDreads, cos they're boring. Dreadknight is way cooler.

[BrotherWasted]

Eh, true. I guess two Dreads can work for footslogging firepower.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah two is usually enough. I've even got by with one supplemented with a Vindicare (as they're roughly the same price, and I wanted to give him a go to see how good he actually is).

[Grimtooth]

I am pretty much convinced, not by this thread mind you, that any GK force I make will likely be based fully on spamming different builds of SS that complement eachother in close support combat.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Strike squads aren't really that good though. I think you'd have greater success with some Purifiers to provide a core, then filling Terminators/Paladins/Interceptors around them.

[BrotherWasted]

For an assaulty army, absolutely.