Hmm... how to handle the Grey Knights

[lord2800]

Well, I've played two games against the Grey Knights so far, both two-on-two, both objectives matches. I've lost both times. I'm not sure if it's due to my tactics, my placement (I suspect this more, but I can't really give specifics on this without drawing or taking some pictures), or just my bad luck. His list doesn't include any Dreadknights or vehicles, all troops. As I recall, his list looks like:

 

GK Grandmaster, Daemonhammer, Psycannon, Psybolt ammo

Librarian, Mastery Level 3

GKSS x2, Halberds

GKSS, Daemonhammer

GK Terminators, Falchions, Banner, Psycannon

Paladins, Apothecary, Banner, Psybolt ammo

BK Interceptor Squad, Daemonhammer, Falchions, Incinerator

 

My list looks like:

 

Belial, TH/SS

Deathwing, Lightning Claws x2, TH/SS x 3, Apothecary, Banner, CML

Deathwing, TH/SS x3, LC x2

Deathwing, SB/PF, Assault Cannon, CML

Tactical Squad, Meltabombs, Meltagun, Rhino

Ravenwing Attack Squad, PF, Meltagun x2, Attack Bike w/ Multimelta

Ravenwing Support Squad (2 Speeders), Heavy Bolter, Multimelta, Assault Cannon, Typhoon Missile Launcher

Whirlwind x2

Land Raider Crusader

 

My ally both times has been a Tau player with a lot of shooty elements, though I don't have his list on-hand. Both times my other opponent has been mostly irrelevant--he and the Tau player end up duking it out most of the game. I've lost the initiative both times, so that hasn't helped. Basically the game flow has been:

 

Scouting: I win the first move, and do something on the opposite side of the table as his Interceptors. He moves his Interceptors, usually right up to combat with some Crisis Suits. I move my bikes forward to two different targets of opportunity, and my speeders towards vehicles or static squads.

 

Turn 1: He assaults the Crisis Suits, wins. Their shooting brings down one (or both) of my speeders. My bikes get assaulted, but live past the initial assault. In response, I deep strike Belial and his squad near the (usually only) remaining bike squad. The first game, I made the mistake of not putting them behind the bikes to get the counter-charge on turn 2. By now, I'm down both speeders, most of my bikes, but have my Rhino in position to handle whatever it needs to handle (claiming a last minute objective, destroying a random tank, etc).

 

Turn 2: My bikes lose the combat, Belial's squad gets shot to death (or, if I'm lucky, down most of its members but still able to assault effectively), my shooty deathwing squad might be in combat, and my assaulty deathwing squad is definitely in combat. The second game, I pulled some Hellions and a Talos into combat by placing Belial and his squad behind the bikes and jetting them forward and away, which I consider a win (since I killed the Talos with fearless wounds :lol:). The crusader has possibly taken out a vehicle, but more likely has just shaken or stunned one.

 

Turn 3: My assaulty deathwing squad wins the combat (if it didn't win last turn) and piles back into the crusader. The shooty deathwing squad is definitely in combat if it wasn't last turn, and it usually loses. My Rhino may or may not be targeted, but usually not.

 

Turn 4: Usually we concede at this point. I've got basically nothing left other than some of an assaulty squad, a Land Raider, and a largely ignored Rhino--which is usually claiming or contesting an objective to no avail. My ally usually has most of his army, but my Grey Knight opponent is usually positioned to charge him at that point--despite my best efforts of attacking him and pulling him as far away as I can.

 

I'm fairly sure I can handle his Grey Knight army, I'm just not sure what I need to do differently. If I throw my bikes and speeders all at one point, as he has suggested, I'll just get them charged and lose them the first turn. I could turtle in a corner and make him walk across the table, but his mid-range shooting will get me long before I get a chance to do anything. I can't spread out and force him to pick targets, because I don't have enough targets to make that effective and everything I could use as a target is too valuable to lose. Deep striking or reserves would also be bad, as he'll just decrease my reserve rolls and I'll just be feeding him my army piecemeal instead of all at once. I'm honestly unsure of how to handle this situation.

 

Any tips/advice/list changes? I'll see if I can get pictures and write up a better battle report the next time we play--which will probably be Friday.

[aekold]

A mistake on your part is to have your speeders shot down in turn 1. Hide them behind cover to make sure he can't kill them before they got to do anything. If no such terrain is availible put them in reserves. When they become availible turbo boost them onto the field of move normally and shoot.

 

Keep belial and terminators in the raider, don't deepstrike them. When you deepstrike a single squad like that you are offering your army in pieces to your opponent, making it easy for him to concentrate on parts of your army instead of your entire army. By keeping belial and friends in the raider you have a very nice counter assault force when he reaches your line.

 

Looking at your list I notice the following things:

 

Your second deathwing squad is illegal. You are only allowed 1 heavy weapon per squad. Move the CML to the assault squad.

 

Furthermore split up your speeder squad. In this configuration they both fail to function at their best. One speeder has the multi melta which is meant for tank hunting. The other speeder has the heavy bolter/assault cannon which you want to fire at infantry.

 

Looking at this list he doesn't have a lot of things that can take out your vehicles by shooting. Maybe to a vindicator to annoy his paladins?

[Isiah]

The simple answer is avoid close combat at all costs as that is where he is focussed ;).

 

Get some decent long range fire support (tllc/ml Dread, standard Land Raider, Dev squad with missile launchers and lascanons etc) and start making him make saves from the get go. Forget DWA for the reasons aekold mentioned. Forget throwing your RW bikes into combat - not the place where you want them at against GK bikes at all. Drop the Whirlwinds as they are largely useless v MEQ armies.

 

As it stands you both have pretty decent mid range firepower so you kinda cancel each other out. But he outdoes you in cc. So you need to hold back. You don't mention if he uses psychic powers much, but if he does a Librarian might help you at least mitigate some incoming attacks.

 

Cheers

I

[Brother Kovash]

Looking at your list, I'm thinking the tactical squad is a little out of place. Dropping them should let you add another Deathwing squad, or something else that can help like a dreadnought or a predator. I usually use a Dreadnought with Assault cannon and heavy flamer in a drop pod so I can drop it in where it's most needed, either taking out a unit sitting on an objective or softening up a unit before I charge with my terminators.

[lord2800]

A mistake on your part is to have your speeders shot down in turn 1. Hide them behind cover to make sure he can't kill them before they got to do anything. If no such terrain is availible put them in reserves. When they become availible turbo boost them onto the field of move normally and shoot.

 

Hmm. I suppose I could use them as a counter-attack, taking on a position that needs softening up before an assault. That makes the assaulting squad somewhat vulnerable until they show up, but I can always throw them into a building or something.

 

Keep belial and terminators in the raider, don't deepstrike them. When you deepstrike a single squad like that you are offering your army in pieces to your opponent, making it easy for him to concentrate on parts of your army instead of your entire army. By keeping belial and friends in the raider you have a very nice counter assault force when he reaches your line.

 

That was going to be my strategy for the next game--against most other opponents, they see that squad and immediately charge it (and I usually win). Using them as counter-charge against his Interceptor squad might even be worthwhile, though I think I'll simply ignore them until it actually matters (i.e. they're getting ready for the assault).

 

Your second deathwing squad is illegal. You are only allowed 1 heavy weapon per squad. Move the CML to the assault squad.

 

Hmm... somehow I skipped right over that 'or' in the entry... Easy enough change. It's shot at the same target my assault squad has charged in any turn they've actually assaulted, at least.

 

Furthermore split up your speeder squad. In this configuration they both fail to function at their best. One speeder has the multi melta which is meant for tank hunting. The other speeder has the heavy bolter/assault cannon which you want to fire at infantry.

 

I had been running them as separate units, I just merged them when I wrote down the entry here. Poorly worded on my part, I suppose.

 

Looking at this list he doesn't have a lot of things that can take out your vehicles by shooting. Maybe to a vindicator to annoy his paladins?

 

Hmm. I'll have to see if I can wiggle enough points around to try that out.

 

The simple answer is avoid close combat at all costs as that is where he is focussed ;).

 

Yeah. Been doing that, heh. Usually he out-shoots me in mid-range, forcing me to either close the distance or stay away--both of which end up being bad options.

 

Get some decent long range fire support (tllc/ml Dread, standard Land Raider, Dev squad with missile launchers and lascanons etc) and start making him make saves from the get go. Forget DWA for the reasons aekold mentioned. Forget throwing your RW bikes into combat - not the place where you want them at against GK bikes at all. Drop the Whirlwinds as they are largely useless v MEQ armies.

 

The Whirlwinds were to shore up some weaknesses in my partner's list, but he's agreed that we need to change them out. They're useful against the GK's partner (as neither time has been an MEQ opponent), but we haven't had any real difficulties against the other partner in the first place. If I drop the Whirlwinds, I have enough points to grab the Vindicator, but what do I do with the remaining points, in that case? It's not quite enough to take another Deathwing squad (even if I take out the Tactical squad--which I plan to, Brother Kovash is right that they're out of place, I just couldn't think of anywhere else to point the points), and everything else is topped off, points-wise. I usually don't like to let my bikes get into combat--they're Melta-armed, after all--but they always seem to get charged... I guess I've used that move one too many times with my local group.

 

As it stands you both have pretty decent mid range firepower so you kinda cancel each other out. But he outdoes you in cc. So you need to hold back. You don't mention if he uses psychic powers much, but if he does a Librarian might help you at least mitigate some incoming attacks.

 

So far he's been out-shooting me in mid-range. He's been trying to use psychic powers, but he really hasn't had the opportunity--I've denied his Librarian a target every game. I've thought about taking a Librarian, just to annoy him, but I really can't justify the 120 points on a model that will more than likely end up sitting in the back, trying to block psychic powers (against Ld 10, at that).

 

Looking at your list, I'm thinking the tactical squad is a little out of place. Dropping them should let you add another Deathwing squad, or something else that can help like a dreadnought or a predator. I usually use a Dreadnought with Assault cannon and heavy flamer in a drop pod so I can drop it in where it's most needed, either taking out a unit sitting on an objective or softening up a unit before I charge with my terminators.

 

Dropping the Tactical squad in a Rhino is definitely the first thing I'm going to do, but it doesn't quite free up enough points (even with other cuts) to take another Deathwing squad. A Dreadnought or Predator are interesting options, however. I've thought about taking an Autocannon/ML Dreadnought to sit in the back and lob fire onto any squads in the open, but I haven't had a chance to really try it out in any game I've played at all--usually I'm facing off against Tau (my partner) or Imperial Guard, so I need the Multi-melta to keep his vehicles in check.

 

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll let you know how it goes.

[greatcrusade08]

youll find blocking the scout move teleport shunts can be hard, so his JP troops and dreadknights will assault turn one..

if possible take scouts or use your own fast moving scouters to negate his shunt moves.

rememebr he cant come within 12" of your units so infiltrating some scouts 12" ahead of your lines will mean he cant get anywhere near your important stuff

 

if your tau mate took some cheap kroot squads, he could use those to draw out the shunters into your firing arcs

[maxkool]

Did he do the teleport scout move? I know its been argued to death here.. but i still think its crap.

 

The FLGS owner is a lifetime gamer and still games, read it over and all us in the place talked about it. I wouldnt start getting used to it as we think it will be gone in a faq.

 

Reason: The scout allows any normal move to be done in a scout phase. Turbo boosting is ok cause those units can do it anytime, it IS one of their normal moves. This teleport IS NOT a normal move. Its a peice of wargear that does a one off special move instead of a normal move. I honestly dont know how anyone can argue that this teleport is normal.

 

 

As for what u can do, most of whats been mentioned is right on. Drop the WW, they are more or less useless against GK. Vindis are king against a footsloggin army... cept i will also be at his optimal range of 24" when you fire it so I wouldnt expect it to last more than one turn...

[RayJ]

My interpretation of the 'Shunt Move' is identical to maxkool, but i understand the evidence and desire to play it the other way. What we will do is devise some tactics for dealing with this assuming it can be done via the Scout move. If we can deal with it that early, we can surely use the same means to deal with it later 9assuming the squads needed for this are still alive).

 

The biggest thing you can do do mitigate the interceptor squad is provide bubble wrap to the unit you want to protect. Force him to assault a unit that is less important for your goals by putting it between the interceptor squad and the juicier targets. Allow this unit the be overwhelmed and destroyed in assault and then retaliate with enough firepower and assault elements to make the interceptor squad no longer a threat.

 

There are many units you can use for bubble-wrapping, though your ally's army provides the absolute best: Kroot.

 

I dislike the armor you're presenting in this list, as the amount of saturation isn't high enough. I also feel Whirlwinds are extremely underwhelming in 5th Edition. With only a single main weapon it doesn't provide the amount of firepower to be worthy of its cost. Dakka predators are always a better choice due to higher front armor and larger volume of shots. Vindicators have similar issues to the whirlwind, but since the gun is stronger, it is a prime target for your opponent to quickly neutralize.

 

Against GKs, you want to ensure that you can keep pummeling them from outside 24 inches with tones of missiles and other high-quality firepower. For you this means lots of cyclones and possibly the addition of some devastators with missile launchers. For your opponent this means lots of missile systems as well as some plasma weaponry on the crisis suits. Forcing saves is paramount to defeating the GKs. Once you get a slight advantage in the shooting game against them, things will cascade in your favor as they will quickly run out of models.

 

Since you will be relying on long-range firepower to weaken the GKs before the majority of them get into range, the crusader is not an optimal choice. For the cost of the crusader and two whirlwinds you can buy two missile devastator squads and a typhoon speeder. Or you can buy 3 dakka predators and a dreadnought.

 

To keep a similar theme I would recommend something like this for an armor-heavy approach:

 

130 Belial

290 DW Command Squad (CML, Apoth, Banner)

235 DW Squad (CML)

235 DW Squad (CML)

 

135 Tactical Squad (MG, Rhino)

 

130 Dreadnought (HF, TLAC)

130 Dreadnought (HF, TLAC)

130 Dreadnought (HF, TLAC)

 

75 RW Support Squadron (Typhoon, Multi-Melta)

75 RW Support Squadron (Typhoon, Multi-Melta)

 

95 Dakk pred (AC, 2x HB)

95 Dakk pred (AC, 2x HB)

95 Dakk pred (AC, 2x HB)

 

Total: 1850

 

For a more foot-oriented list, I'd make it extremely similar to my Death Hammer list. I'm a little biased on it, but that's due to it being so very effective and efficient:

 

130 Belial

290 DW Command (CML, Apoth, Banner)

235 DW Squad (CML)

235 DW Squad (CML)

235 DW Squad (CML)

190 RW Attack Squad (2xMG, MMAB)

190 RW Attack Squad (2xMG, MMAB)

170 Devastator Squad (4x ML)

170 Devastator Squad (4x ML)

 

Total: 1845

 

In both lists, you want at least 3 TH/SS models in each Deathwing squad if you can. This increases their survivability a TON vs low-ap weapons and power weapons. Also, deep striking with the command squad can be useful for drawing the enemy away (if they all have TH/SS they are going to be able to survive a LOT of shooting in most circumstances when combined with the apothecary).

 

Again, the key here is to out-shoot him at long range and whittle him down to a more manageable threat at mid-range. Provide bubble-wrap to defend against the shunt move and be ready to focus that squad into oblivion in a single turn. Even if 3 or 4 guys remain in that squad, it is basically a non-issue as any of your units has the means of dealing with it at that point. 5GKs will utterly fold to Deathwing, halberds included (as long as you have the Storm Shields to protect yourself)

[exsulis81]

Don't waste your time DS with a DA army it just isn't worth it.

 

#2 a GK army is 24 inches of shooting at all times, so he is going to be able to out shoot you.

 

Drop the Whirlwinds, and the Tac too. I'm thinking ML Devs, or Predators

[EPK]

#2 a GK army is 24 inches of shooting at all times, so he is going to be able to out shoot you.

 

I suppose I would agree (or it is at least a wash as considering the range of our untis as well) . The CML sbegin to focus on that problem, so I would make sure I have all 3 with them. However, going in the direction of the first list RayJay provided above would completely handle the range problem I would think. Every unit, save the tac squad, is hurling Str 7-8 shots down field up to 48 inches and than another handful of melta shots up to 36 along with the HBs on the Preds.

 

Oddly enough, and just a note as not to get off topic, but after just getting creamed by Dark Eldar, I think that list would also work for them as well. DW assault 2 Term squads to put some pressure on a flank as a diversion and fire away with your gunline, popping all those lance carrying skimmers... on the flip side the DWA may be the wrong option and not needed for Grey Knights, as mentioned above, you could probably just sit back and fire.

[Grand Master Raziel]

I agree with RayJ on almost all points. Something he didn't mention is that the Ravenwing Attack Squadron is almost certainly a waste of points. Ravenwing Bikes are far too expensive for what they bring to the table - this is somewhat mitigated if you field Sammael to make them Troops, but only somewhat. Ditching them frees up a lot of points.

 

One thing I'd do differently is field those Dreads with plasma cannons instead of TLACs. It looked to me like popping vehicles wasn't a need against this particular opponent, so the PCs would be better against all his infantry, and on a Dread you don't have to worry about overheats.

 

Another thought: Maybe make 2 of those Dreads Venerable, and spring for a Techmarine with a Servo-harness and a couple Servitors. The Techie can babysit two Dreads at once if you keep them close together, and with the Venerable upgrade you can force your opponent to reroll any Destroyed results and repair the resulting Weapon Destroyed/Immobilized results with the Techie.

 

 

If you don't want to make such big wholesale changes to your existing list, dropping the Tac Squad and the Whirlwinds should give you enough points for a Venerable Dread and a Techie, or possibly two Venerables. Certainly, you'd have at least enough points for a Venerable and a standard Dread. Putting PCs on both would help you take a chunk out of the GK army before you have to deal with them in their preferred envelope. Wouldn't be too bad against hordes, either.

[RayJ]

RW bikes would be far too expensive if they were in any other space marine book. In DA, however, they are the ONLY source of fast, close-range anti-tank firepower. The ability to Outflank and provide harrassment in the late game make them great, especially since they will NEVER flee from shooting.

 

Unfortunately, they are almost forced into a suicide role, making it unlikely they survive very long into the late game without hiding in reserves. You'll have a hard time convincing me that any other unit in the DA codex is better for dealing with opposing heavy armor, however. Especially at their price range (190 points for 2 meltaguns and 1 multimelta, capable of shooting at 2 units)

 

As for Deep Striking, you have to be careful against GKs. You'll never want to DS more than one squad, and typically only if you go first. The Warp Quake power is definitely something you don't want to expose your expensive units to.

[EPK]

One thing I'd do differently is field those Dreads with plasma cannons instead of TLACs.

 

I once made the same comment recently, however someone else made a good argument (which may have been specifically regarding Devastators) and here are some of the points they made if I remember correctly:

1. Small blast and most people spread their models out well
   
2. One shot and scatters
   
3. Not twin linked.
   
4. Slightly less range
   

 

And of lesser importance, less utility as the ACs can flip either way against infantry and armor. I don't know the mathhammer, but I'd be interested to see how the TLAC does stacked against the PC.

[Grand Master Raziel]

Unfortunately, they are almost forced into a suicide role, making it unlikely they survive very long into the late game without hiding in reserves. You'll have a hard time convincing me that any other unit in the DA codex is better for dealing with opposing heavy armor, however. Especially at their price range (190 points for 2 meltaguns and 1 multimelta, capable of shooting at 2 units)

 

There's Ravenwing Support Squadrons. 195pts gets you 3 MMs, though how many targets they're capable of shooting at depends on what else you've got in your FA slots.

 

Plus, Command Squads. 150ish points will get you two meltaguns toted in a Rhino. Not quite as cost effective, but has that added layer of protection the Rhino represents.

 

It's rules-lawyerly, but you can field Company Vets with 2 meltaguns, too. The FAQ states the Sergeant of a CV squad can take the same upgrades as other squad members. I interpret that as including the heavy/special squaddies, which puts CVs on equal footing with Sternguards in that respect.

 

But, yeah, good point on the relatively cheap melta RWA Squadron. My point was, when you're tooling up a RWA Squadron to full size and giving it the upgrades a full sized unit should have, it can easily cost in the vicinity of 300pts - 400 if you include the Speeder. That's a lot of points for 7-8 models.

 

And of lesser importance, less utility as the ACs can flip either way against infantry and armor. I don't know the mathhammer, but I'd be interested to see how the TLAC does stacked against the PC.

 

That's hard to mathhammer out because the effectiveness of PCs is directly related to how many figures they can catch under the template. Yes, spreading your stuff out is a good defense against templates, but it's not always feasable. Plus, there are certain intangible benefits to PCs. If the GK player elects to run with his DSing units to spread them out instead of shooting with them, that's beneficiial without having to actually kill anything. Plus, sometimes circumstances force opponents to bunch up, and when that happens, PCs can hammer them - especially an army like GKs, where every single figure killed is a tangible loss.

 

Another unit with potential for being valuable for GK-killing would be a Command Squad with 2 plasma guns, 2 plasma pistols, an Apothecary (additional layer of protection against overheats) and a Rhino. Not many units in our dex can spam plasma that way.

[lord2800]

Alright, so I got another game in against him a while ago, but work decided that I would be busy up until now. I wasn't able to get pictures, but it was pretty much a slaughter. He didn't change his list (wanting to play-test it all the way out). I changed my list, and ended up with:

 

Belial, LC

Dreadnought, Venerable, TLAC, ML

Deathwing, LC x2, TH/SS x3, Banner, Apothecary, CML

Deathwing, TH/SS x5, CML

Deathwing, SB/PF x5, Assault Cannon

Ravenwing Attack Squad, Meltagun x2, Power Fist

Land Raider Crusader, HK Missile, Extra Armor

 

(I was a few points shy, so I dumped them on accessories for the Land Raider)

 

This time we switched partners, so I had a Dark Eldar player on my team. Initially they had the first turn, I placed and played a defensive game, using my bikes to give my shooty terminators a screen for the first turn. I had Belial and his squad in the Land Raider, and the TH/SS terminators camping a building with line of sight to a couple vehicles. He used his scout move to shoot towards my TH/SS terminators and my dreadnought (which hid behind a wall, between a building and the Land Raider), and I used mine to put my bikes in cover just a little closer.

 

We seized the initiative, and the first thing I did was move my Land Raider closer to his Interceptor squad (my partner did the same thing with a squad of Wyches with Lelith). My dreadnought moved ontop of the building, to gain better line of sight, and my bikes moved forward and shot rapid fire at his Halberd squad, backed by the shooty terminators taking a few shots with the Assault Cannon. Seeing my partner move a bunch of Wyches up to assault his Interceptor squad, I left Belial in the Land Raider and shot that, the dreadnought, and the CML from the TH/SS terminators at my other opponents' vehicles and Broadsides (and failed miserably at doing any significant damage). Their turn involves a lot of scrambling to recover, and I lose two bikes and my Dreadnought gets immobilized (down from an explodes result--go Venerable!). My partner loses a few Raiders (including Lelith's transport), but is otherwise just fine.

 

Our second turn, I move forward with the Land Raider, pile out in front of the other Halberd squad, and proceed to beat some face in. I don't think I lost a single terminator in that combat--I rolled exceptionally. My one remaining bike is out of range to do anything useful other than get shot, so I move it out of the way, hoping it can join a combat later. My dreadnought, now having line of sight to just about everything, continues doing a whole lot of nothing. I move my TH/SS terminators forward, following cover, hoping to get them into position to do something other than take pot shots (I'm considering replacing the TH/SS in that squad with SB/PF so I have more range in my army). My partner obliterates the rest of his partner's vehicles, and I'm poised to annihilate the rest of his army in close combat. At this point, they concede.

 

I think this victory was mostly won by having the first turn, but I think I played a lot better by playing defensively rather than offensively.

[Grand Master Neo]

I think this victory was mostly won by having the first turn, but I think I played a lot better by playing defensively rather than offensively.

the best form of attack is defense :tu: