glider0880 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Now to be blatanly honest I feel annoyed angry and bemused. My main opponent when it comes to gaming is a long time GK collector. We normally had a 1:1 win loss ratio against each other but with their new codex out I just cant beat him anymore. Blood angels- the space marines most' assaulty' cahpter have been knocked off the perch by forcesword weilding, initiative 6 men who also happen to all be psykers! And every man has a psychic hood! Do you know how frustrating that is when your only HQ is a librarian. Anyways to the point- How to beat them? -Assault? Pretty much out of the question when they all strike before you with forceswords! Suggestions welcome though. -Shooting? Not really the BA way but a mixture of shooty/combat units could work. What units should I use though? Devs, sterngaurd? -Other ideas? Any other suggestions are welcome I'd also love some help building a list up against them. Post your ideas! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 There is already a pretty good thread on Blood Angels vs Grey Knights. However from your post I notice several errors: Forceswords do not grant I6, Force Halberds grant +2 I. They usually cost points on Power Armoured Grey Knights. Halberds do not improve invulnerable saves in CC for the Terminators though, only Swords do that. The only model in the Grey Knight codex with a Psychic Hood is the Librarian. Everyone else has other special rules, but none of them are equivalent to Psychic Hoods. First step would be to borrow or buy the codex and read it thoroughly. Next step would be field more Vindicators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2731021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybnick Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 First off I don't believe that every GK on the board has a psychic hood, there armor may be modeled with one but rules wise I believe the Librarian is still the only GK unit to posses one as wargear. Also I believe they are hurt much more by your hood than they are by theres, simply by the virtue of every single unit having some sort of psychic power for you to potentially block. I disagree with what you said about the BA way not being shooting, we are still a Space Marine chapter and have access to most if not all the shooting assets that normal marine chapters posses. We just do it fastre than they do for the most part. There are loads of ways to add shooting to any BA force, even if that force is more assault oriented. Baal Predators, Devestators, Rifleman Dreads, Sternguard, heavy support Predator tanks, Vindicators, Razorbacks, Storm Raven gunships, Tactical Marines, Landspeeders, etc are all perfectly acceptable shooty units and won't detract for you assault units if added. Personally for killing GK I'd focus on things that can pump out reliable firepower outside of the 24" bubble that 80% of GK shooting lives in (or as is the case with Baal predators isn't to scared by S7 weaponry). Once you get them out of their transports and soften the squads up assaulting them should be perfectly safe. Considering they lost some WS and A statitics with the new codex save for the entire squad getting force weapons they shouldn't be that scary in assault. If he is spending the points to put halberds on every unit then he should have a fairly low model count use that to your advantage, he will feel every loss you inflict much harder than you will. Anyway that's just a few ideas, I'm far from an expert at facing the GK but I don't think it's all doom and gloom for the BA. Edit - Sama beat to the punch on a few points, but my position in regard to BA vs. GK stands. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2731041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 They are correct on the psychic hoods...only the libby's have psychic hoods so you only deal with two. However, One libby, with Dreads and their normal aegis armor would be a pain to deal with if you focus on psychic powers. Aegis-When targeting a model with aegis armor your psykers leadership is reduced by -1 when they do their psychic test. Dreadnougts have reinforced aegis. If you target a model with aegis armor the test is increased to a -4 if the psychic test is within 12 inches of the dread/model with reinforced aegis. Not sure how likely GK players are going to take this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2731051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Drop Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I've said it before and I'll say it again, stay out of their shooting range attack with vindicators and plasma cannon devs and open up their transports, soften them up as much as you can before they assault, melta, plasma and template weapons are all your friend. Also for when assaulting storm shields and thunder hammers would be my preference, a squad of cc termis all with SS/TH will mash them up after you have whittled them down from a far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2731087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Now to be blatanly honest I feel annoyed angry and bemused. My main opponent when it comes to gaming is a long time GK collector. We normally had a 1:1 win loss ratio against each other but with their new codex out I just cant beat him anymore. Blood angels- the space marines most' assaulty' cahpter have been knocked off the perch by forcesword weilding, initiative 6 men who also happen to all be psykers! And every man has a psychic hood! Do you know how frustrating that is when your only HQ is a librarian. Anyways to the point- How to beat them? -Assault? Pretty much out of the question when they all strike before you with forceswords! Suggestions welcome though. -Shooting? Not really the BA way but a mixture of shooty/combat units could work. What units should I use though? Devs, sterngaurd? -Other ideas? Any other suggestions are welcome I'd also love some help building a list up against them. Post your ideas! Do you know what I got from this? "My one-trick pony that I couldnt do very well any way doesnt work so good no more..." Maybe thats being a bit unfair to you, but thats what it looks like. A 1:1 ratio vs the old GK codex isnt all that good - either he is absolutley spot on, or you've not learnt anything and arent playing very well. Hints and tips - If you see a squad all tricked out with halberds - stay away from it or hit it with overwhelming force. They dont have that many attacks, so back the odds - 10 GK's equals about 5 hits, and 2 or 3 casualties if you charge. So your Assault marine squad, with a priest nearby, will have 21 return attacks, so call it 10 hits, at S5 is going to be 6 wounds, maybe 3 casualties. So on average, you draw, which means he wins becasue you cant react to the rest of his amry and lose your charge bonus for the next round. Hit him with 2 of your squads and he will take another 3-4 casualties form the combat, then fearless wounds, which may well wipe him out. Plasma guns, plasma cannons... Usually gold dust, but probably only for 1 game when afterwards he'll be looking at a piece of wargear that makes them less reliable killers (or something - havent read the specific rules). Weight of fire works just as well on him as it does on you - so Bolters, ML's, Flamers, Dread with frag cannon and heavy flamer will put the hurt on a squad and leave it vulnerable to a single assault squads charge... Combined arms. Yes, DoA style lists can work very well, but Blood Angels are far more than DoA. We can shoot as well as, if not better than, C:SM with our fast predators, Baals with flamestorms, etc... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2731222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fury Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 DoA and assaults are going to hurt really bad against GK. The best thing we have going against them is a mechanized force. GKs don't have good anti-tank within their squads aside from thunder hammers, the s8 TLAC dread is pretty nasty though. If you see a squad all tricked out with halberds - stay away from it or hit it with overwhelming force. They dont have that many attacks, so back the odds I wish it was that easy, but it's not. Consider this... 10 man strike squad with halberds = 250 points (not that expensive by the way) Plus say they had been given counter attack by the master guy, and they succeeded in getting hammerhand off... you'd be looking at 7 dead guys before you even got to swing. Not to mention you had to get within assault range without losing anybody to 20 S4 (possibly S5) stormbolter shots from as far as 24" out. If you had taken 2-3 casualties before assaulting...well you get the picture. Weight of fire works just as well on him as it does on youVery, true. Actually with all the priests and FNP around we are a little more resistant to the bolter fire. But, they have assault 2 24" range bolters, and most BAs have shelved their Tactical squads for the past year. So don't go around trying to swap fire from 12" with bolters or pistols only to be shot back and finished off in assault. I'm not one of these doom-n-gloom guys that screams OP! at every new dex, but the basic GK troops are TOUGH! They die just as easy as other marines, but they retaliate 10 times harder. With power weapons and storm bolters for all, you can't whittle down a squad to 3 guys and expect to mop them up in the next turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2731340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 While I remember - OP, read this thread if you havent already... Should give you a reasonable idea of pro's and cons for dealing with GK's: How to deal with GK's Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2731397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I think DoA can do well vs GK if there is 25 percent terrain on the table. You don't have to deepstrike right on top of them. You will just have to play smart versus GK and be aware of the strengths each particular unit has. I think a Stormraven will be very helpful as GK don't have lots of long range AT (unless they are packing riflemen dreadnaughts). A Librarian obviously is a must have unit versus GK. Overall DoA is much more mobile and can still put up a good fight in close combat. Characters such as the Sanguinor, Dante and Lemartes can strike at I7 on the charge and decimate GK units packing halberds. Paladins don't like meltaguns and infernus pistols. We have all the right tools - you just have to be smart about it. G ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2731490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Plasma Cannons, Demolisher Cannons, Flamestorm Cannons, Oh My! Blood Angel Devastators are cheaper than C:SM, and they outrange 90% of the GK codex. Stack them with Plasma Cannons and you'll be killing a bunch of Grey Knights with every salvo. Vindicators (like all BA Rhino chassis vehicles) are Fast, so you can move it 12" and still fire its main weapon. That makes your equivalent range 36"- it won't get shot at by rending Psycannons before it shoots, and every GK underneath the large blast template and not in cover is dead. Baal Predators, in addition to being Fast, are also Scout vehicles. Before the first turn, zoom it 18" across the board; on turn 1, zip it another 12" and you'll be in range (assuming standard tables and deployments) to unleash the flame template that wounds them on a 2+ and ignores their armor- AND their cover. It might feel wrong to you, but run your Blood Angels as an entirely shooting army, with only a few assault units meant to counter charge and protect your shooting units, and you'll be surprised at the results. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2731544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
glider0880 Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share Posted April 29, 2011 Thanks guys. Kitted out with two new baals today and smashed them back to titan. Sorry Leonaidas I didnt mean to sound like that i was just immensly frustrated when i posted this thread. Looking at our scoreboard our Win/Loss ratio is 74 wins to me 66 wins to him. Close to 1:1 as can be! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2741374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Drop Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Thanks guys. Kitted out with two new baals today and smashed them back to titan. Sorry Leonaidas I didnt mean to sound like that i was just immensly frustrated when i posted this thread. Looking at our scoreboard our Win/Loss ratio is 74 wins to me 66 wins to him. Close to 1:1 as can be! You kitting them with flamestorm cannons and heavy flamer sponsons? At first I wanted to go with autocannon and HB sponsons but more and more I'm starting to fall in love with the firestarter Baal as I've always loved them aesthetically and for the cool factor but I'm also starting to think that they will be very viable on the battle field too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2741394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DextrousWombat Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Call it suicidal but rob them of charge bonuses, hit them hard with a 2 vs 1 unit ratio on your side, If your opponenets giving them counter attack then have you shooting units whittle them down. Worked for me so far, although I have had limited exposure to them. -Petey Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2741894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I've found DC to be exceedingly effective at killing anything in the book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2742003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d503 Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 What do you make of the 5-point 'servo skills' in thier codex that dorbid infiltration or scouting within 12" Completely nullifying the enemy ability to scout move or infiltrate for the cost of a plasmagun is very, very broken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2742041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 It's really only a pain if you have a scout company. Otherwise with the focus on mech it shouldn't be difficult to get a transport near the skull to remove it. Perhaps the radius could be smaller though since it is just a skull. Surely a skull can't mount that many sensors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2742199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Blood Donator Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 As has been said, casualties in C.C aren't that heavy against GK, and if he has wasted points on lots of halberds, his army is small. Shooting isn't too problematic either, as you can FNP most of their shooting except for the rending psycannons. You can even have like 4 squads within range for a priest, as GK have precious few blast weapons. Also, they drop just as easy as regular marines to bolt pistols and the like xD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2742204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Personally I think Im going to swap out one of my 3 10 man RAS and Priest for another big VV squad and thatway ensure that I can destroy approximately 2 transports and the units in side them before my opponent can react. I think I'll be tooling my VV up with one or two SS's to take those critical halberd hits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2742225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Drop Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Thanks guys. Kitted out with two new baals today and smashed them back to titan. Sorry Leonaidas I didnt mean to sound like that i was just immensly frustrated when i posted this thread. Looking at our scoreboard our Win/Loss ratio is 74 wins to me 66 wins to him. Close to 1:1 as can be! You kitting them with flamestorm cannons and heavy flamer sponsons? At first I wanted to go with autocannon and HB sponsons but more and more I'm starting to fall in love with the firestarter Baal as I've always loved them aesthetically and for the cool factor but I'm also starting to think that they will be very viable on the battle field too. ???????????????? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227945-an-army-list-to-beat/#findComment-2742367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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