Grey Knights: how to fight Necron?

[Cmdr Shepard]

So I'm a day late. And a dollar short. Story of my life!

 

A Stormraven can keep up with Destroyers and outrange them, yes, but it will be vulnerable to Heavy Destroyers as well as regular Gauss fire. If he can walk up a unit of Warriors and rapid fire them, they can glancing hit your Stormraven to death. (20 warriors = 40 shots = 26 hits = 4 or 5 glancing hits...) It also doesn't have the weight of fire needed to take down lots of Necrons at once unless you do the Typhoon/Plasmacannon/Hurricane Bolters, and even then you won't be able to fire both main weapons unless you only move it 6" or choose to fire the Typhoon as Frag, but then you won't be ignoring armor saves- it'll just be like more hits from the Hurricane Bolters. So like all things, when used right the Stormraven can do really well.

 

A dedicated melee unit can't hurt. Check out this list I wrote- it has DCA's as a dedicated melee unit, backed up by a Librarian and an Inquisitor bringing the grenades.

Thank You for your help.

 

Gauss weapons' auto-glance ability may incapacitate most vehicles for sure. However Stormrave can move 12" and fire with two weapons (1 for being fast and the other due to power of the machine spirit). Warriors move only 6" per turn, they can run but Stormraven should be able to keep distance. If the Stormraven engage at 48" heavy destroyers it could still fire without caming into their range. As you noticed a LasCannon Stormraven does not have the weight of fire needed to destroy lots of Necrons. Perhaps it can be be used to hunt a single unit of destroyers. The plasmacannon set up will put it into heavy detroyer range.

So do you suggest to avoid Stormraven or use it to remove destroyers units?

 

About DCA: it is a wonderful dedicated melee unit, especially backed up by Ordo Xeno inquisitor.

[killersquid]

I am predominantly a Necron player, but have had numerous games against the Grey Knights so far. I've lost two, drew two and won four. I don't use that information to brag, but to back up what I am saying.

 

From what I've noticed, Grey Knights should not rely on a few expensive units. Necrons can pump out huge quantities of high strength firepower to force on the saves. I don't use a monolith in my force, but I use Pariahs and the Deceiver. Once a unit is within 12" of the Pariahs, I can pin them with the Deceiver fairly reliably, or force them to run with shooting casualties. Very few things in the Grey Knight book are fearless, so this has worked well for me. Keep an eye out for that, as it's devastating for an army with a small model count.

 

Also, keep your force together, don't get cocky. You can eliminate any necron unit if you get the charge off with a full squad. Then that unit will die from the torrent of fire afterwards. Don't expect units to survive solo, you need to keep the pressure on from multiple angles if at all possible. Attack with a couple of units from the front simultaneously with something from the flank. Transports and tanks are very hard for necrons to deal with and fortitude really messes with the whole "Glance stun lock" thing.

 

Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are both easy Kill Points in a necron army. Small squads and easy to eliminate. They also pack some of the strongest firepower. This is obvious, but very important. Also, keep an eye out for scarabs. with turbo-boosting they have a 2+ cover save and can effectively block charges to more venerable necron units. I use them in this manner to make a living wall for something nasty to charge. Also, Grey Knights are not terribly awesome in combat. Still hitting and wounding on fours. Without the charge, they don't really have a whole lot going for them. If a squad is weakened..Well, it's not going to do whole lot on it's own. Often times I've found it easy to finish off one or two models by charging with Destroyers. However, Rad Grenades I've found to be quite...annoying. They mitigate one of the Necrons strengths which is their resilience.

 

I've found the vindicare lack luster, as there is not really a whole lot of ideal targets for it in a Necron Army. However, it's good for getting the last kill in a wounded unit. Keep it's shots for last as mop-up duty. Gernades on the Inquisitors I've found easy to nutralize, as Destroyers Gauss Cannons instant kill them and the number of wounds they can put on units will force the inquisitor to take some saves (which they eventually have to fail). Also, terminators allow necrons to run from combat, which is a great boon for us. The main way necrons die in combat is from being swept. Terminators cannot sweep, so power armour may be more useful, or the squad may just re-join the fight. Had this happen with my Immortals before, much to my shock. (I lost combat, but my unit is not dead?! *GASP*).

 

But yeah, if you play smart, you should do well. If the necron player uses a :cussty list, all the better. Just don't get too carried away by flash. More boots on the table is only going to be good for you. Less models you take, you're really relying on having to pass those armour saves.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I am predominantly a Necron player, but have had numerous games against the Grey Knights so far. I've lost two, drew two and won four. I don't use that information to brag, but to back up what I am saying.

 

From what I've noticed, Grey Knights should not rely on a few expensive units. Necrons can pump out huge quantities of high strength firepower to force on the saves. I don't use a monolith in my force, but I use Pariahs and the Deceiver. Once a unit is within 12" of the Pariahs, I can pin them with the Deceiver fairly reliably, or force them to run with shooting casualties. Very few things in the Grey Knight book are fearless, so this has worked well for me. Keep an eye out for that, as it's devastating for an army with a small model count.

 

Also, keep your force together, don't get cocky. You can eliminate any necron unit if you get the charge off with a full squad. Then that unit will die from the torrent of fire afterwards. Don't expect units to survive solo, you need to keep the pressure on from multiple angles if at all possible. Attack with a couple of units from the front simultaneously with something from the flank. Transports and tanks are very hard for necrons to deal with and fortitude really messes with the whole "Glance stun lock" thing.

 

Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are both easy Kill Points in a necron army. Small squads and easy to eliminate. They also pack some of the strongest firepower. This is obvious, but very important. Also, keep an eye out for scarabs. with turbo-boosting they have a 2+ cover save and can effectively block charges to more venerable necron units. I use them in this manner to make a living wall for something nasty to charge. Also, Grey Knights are not terribly awesome in combat. Still hitting and wounding on fours. Without the charge, they don't really have a whole lot going for them. If a squad is weakened..Well, it's not going to do whole lot on it's own. Often times I've found it easy to finish off one or two models by charging with Destroyers. However, Rad Grenades I've found to be quite...annoying. They mitigate one of the Necrons strengths which is their resilience.

 

I've found the vindicare lack luster, as there is not really a whole lot of ideal targets for it in a Necron Army. However, it's good for getting the last kill in a wounded unit. Keep it's shots for last as mop-up duty. Gernades on the Inquisitors I've found easy to nutralize, as Destroyers Gauss Cannons instant kill them and the number of wounds they can put on units will force the inquisitor to take some saves (which they eventually have to fail). Also, terminators allow necrons to run from combat, which is a great boon for us. The main way necrons die in combat is from being swept. Terminators cannot sweep, so power armour may be more useful, or the squad may just re-join the fight. Had this happen with my Immortals before, much to my shock. (I lost combat, but my unit is not dead?! *GASP*).

 

But yeah, if you play smart, you should do well. If the necron player uses a :cussty list, all the better. Just don't get too carried away by flash. More boots on the table is only going to be good for you. Less models you take, you're really relying on having to pass those armour saves.

Thank You for sharing your personal experience.

Sweeping Necrons was one of the first tactics I thought about. Just a question: If a necron unit is swept can it use we'll be back rule?

 

I want to include a Vindicare only because my opponent is famous to rely on Monolith. Turbo penetrator can put is confidence and plans out of businiss. I asked the tournament's "judges" and they said Vindicare roll all 4 dices against the monolith.

 

You said vehicles are very hard to necron's players. Do you suggest the use of cheap transports or even to deploy a more expensive vehicle like stormraven?

 

The first way to have more boots is to deploy strike squads. What do you think about it?

 

The match has been posponed due to organizing issues so I have few more days to think about tactics :tu:

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetings again Battle Brothers,

 

My list is nearly done but I have still a question about how to equip a Dread.

I plan to put in in stormrave and disembark it right before Necron's faces (I was thinking to use it to hunt small unit or for a back-up assault): he disembark stromraven after a long range suppression fire and charges) Since I need power weapon, I suppose the Psybolt Dread is not an option. I must keep the DCCW and I wonder what weapon use for the other arm.

 

Any idea?

 

Do you suggest to ignore the Dread and deploy something else?

 

Thank You.

[DarkGuard]

Have you considered the plasma cannon? S7 AP2 blast will destroy Necrons, especially if they are packed up. The other options, of course, are the MM, which can still take down a Monolith in one hit (but you need a lot of 6s), or the assault cannon, which thanks to rending can take Necrons out. It's just a shame you can't stick another DCCW on like the Blood Angels, I think in this circumstance it would be more useful.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Have you considered the plasma cannon? S7 AP2 blast will destroy Necrons, especially if they are packed up. The other options, of course, are the MM, which can still take down a Monolith in one hit (but you need a lot of 6s), or the assault cannon, which thanks to rending can take Necrons out. It's just a shame you can't stick another DCCW on like the Blood Angels, I think in this circumstance it would be more useful.

Yes, I have considered the Plasma Cannon. Necrons tend to be frequently parked up. :lol:

The two options are Plasma Cannon and Assault Cannon, possibly with Psybolt. Under usual circumstances MM is a great weapon but Necrons require a different approach. I have the vindicare and warp quake to deal with the Monolith, thus I'd prefer to equip the Dread to counter Necron infatnry and force the entire force to phase out.

 

It's a real shame GK can't stick an additional DCCW. GK are the best among the best, why are they unable to equip a Dread specifically for CC task? It sounds illogical for an army known for its pragmatism. Their tactics are so adaptable to allow the effects of Grand Strategy rule but not enough to equip a second DCCW.

It's a shame, as you said.

 

Back on the topic: Currently I'm more inclined to use the plasma cannon...it softens ranks before charging. we must remember very few Necron units can damage a dread in CC. There is a a wargear for warriors but no one uses it :lol: and destroyers cannot threaten AV12 in CC.

[DarkGuard]

Yes, the plasma cannon sounds the best bet IMO. And it's more interesting than the assault cannon, not many people use a plasma cannon Dread. Are you still running your SR with a plasma cannon? I seem to remember you saying you'd try out its TL-plasma cannon.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Yes, the plasma cannon sounds the best bet IMO. And it's more interesting than the assault cannon, not many people use a plasma cannon Dread. Are you still running your SR with a plasma cannon? I seem to remember you saying you'd try out its TL-plasma cannon.

Exactly.... great memory DarkGuard :lol:

I'm able to field two of them, one with LasCannon for a 48" "sniping action" against destroyers and the other with TL plasma cannon.

I wonder if the LasCannon is a good choice... what do you think?

[DarkGuard]

Depends on what else your fielding. Is there anything that can take down Destroyers quickly, reliably, and at range? I'm not too sure myself. Have you put the typhoon missile launcher on that lascannon one? Because with 12" movement you can fire two krak missiles and a TL-LC into a Destroyer unit and it'll do well. If your opponent is more likely to run horde though and less Destroyers and plasma cannon would be the better buy.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Depends on what else your fielding. Is there anything that can take down Destroyers quickly, reliably, and at range? I'm not too sure myself. Have you put the typhoon missile launcher on that lascannon one? Because with 12" movement you can fire two krak missiles and a TL-LC into a Destroyer unit and it'll do well. If your opponent is more likely to run horde though and less Destroyers and plasma cannon would be the better buy.

 

Both Stormravens have typhoon ML. LasCannon and Typhoon ML are the only weapons in the list that can take care of destroyers at 48" range.

I have saved a lot of points in the HQ slots since I'll field only an OX Inquisitor with the usual collection of nades. The bulk of the army will be formed by 3 ten men strike squads, 2 embarked on stormravens and the last on rhino.

The rest of the force will consinst in a Vindicare (145 pts are an heavy burden but I need something able to put a monolith out of business if it can bypass the warp quake defense and eventually to snipe the necron lord) and the plasma Dread.

 

I'm not sure about the rhino. If the mission rolled is not kill points the transported unit will seat on an objective. However the rhino can be borrowed by Vindicare: many players forget he have even a pistol with the same rounds of his rifle. It has only 12" range but if the enemy remains out of rifle range he can embark the rhino and shoot with the pistol or simply to redeploy.

 

what's your opinion?

[DarkGuard]

My opinion is don't deploy the Vindicare out of range. No I'm serious. You have a maximum of 7 shots with this guy, you don't want to waste them by repositioning him. He must really hate DoW now I think about it.

 

Sounds good in general. Should be hard to beat and stop, especially with two Storm Ravens. Once you've taken down your opponent's fast units you'll easily be able to dominate the battlefield. Best of luck.

[Cmdr Shepard]

My opinion is don't deploy the Vindicare out of range. No I'm serious. You have a maximum of 7 shots with this guy, you don't want to waste them by repositioning him. He must really hate DoW now I think about it.

 

Sounds good in general. Should be hard to beat and stop, especially with two Storm Ravens. Once you've taken down your opponent's fast units you'll easily be able to dominate the battlefield. Best of luck.

Thank You, DarkGuard

DoW could be a serious issue for Vindicare's efficiency. However he is the best chance to destroy monoliths quickly. 36" range means he can cover much field if deployed in a central position. Spearhead will be much better than DoW.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I finally played the match and it was an easy victory, well easier than I exepected because I think he didn't play a very "threatning" list.

If I remember correctly he played:

 

1 Lord with ressurection orb, the CC weapon that ignores any save and the gear that allows a teleporting movement (I have to check the names ;) ) maybe other wargear...

1 Lord on destroyer chassis with 4++ save orb and the above CC weapon

 

2x 10 Necron Warriors (not enought in my opinion)

2x 3 Wraiths

1x 5 scarab swarms with the wargear that glance vehicles on 6

2x 3 Heavy destroyers

 

I suppose I listed them all.

 

I played:

 

OX Inquisitor with Rad/Psychotroke nades and 2 servo-skulls ( I had 6 pts left and I got them)

 

10 men strike squad with Hammer, 2 psycannons with a Rhino

10 men strike squad, Justicar with MC weapon, hammer and a psycannon

9 men strike squad with, Justicar with MC, hammer and psycannon

 

Stormraven with TL LasCannon, typhoon ML

Stormraven with TL plasma Cannon, typhoon ML

 

Vindicare

 

Dread with Plasma cannon.

 

It was an objective based mission, Dawn of war deployment...my vindicare didn't appreaciated it.

I won the roll and I chose to go second.

 

He deployed two troops unit and first Lord near an objective.

The rest of his force enter from the border. He used turbo for every unit. This tactic brought his destroyers very close to my deployment zone.

Stormraven and strike squads' fire decimated the two destroyers units. Since there were no other destroyer models within 6" (damaged models don't count as stated in the FAQ) he hadn't the chance to use WBB rule. A nice strike, especially since the units were so close to mine that night vision tests posed no issue.

 

The third strike squad and second stromraven took care of the a lone wraith unit.

The main fight took place between a unit of Wraith , the destroyer Lord and a strike squad. The fight last for two turns, we were both unlucky with rolls and the first turn was a draw 2-2

At the end my valiant GK destroyed the last wraith and wounded the lord (I used hammer-hand) who was swept. The Lord was very unlucky and he inflicted no wounds. He failed ld test rolling 6 and 4, then he was swept.

The Dread and the Inquisitor strike squad were ready to join the fight but the lone and valiant strike squad did everything by itself ;)

 

At the end of third turn I had 2 objective while he controlled only one. He had only two Necron warriors unit left one of them could have use the teleport wargear but any other objective was easily controlled/contested by my unit.

We played another turn before declaring GK victory.

 

I suppose the victory was so easy due to the nature of his list. However my stromravens/strike squads list caught the attetion of many person in the store.

Just a note: In my opinion he made a terrible tactical mistake. The destroyer Lord and the Wraiths were surronded by my units. Not even a victory in CC would have saved them from retaliation, I think.

 

Thanks to everyone for your advices and assistance battle brothers.

[DarkGuard]

I would agree with you that his list was not the best. He needed at least another 10 Warriors, perhaps another 20, plus Destroyers. While heavy Destroyers are good, Destroyers are better IMO as they can still knock out light tanks with ease, and are better against infantry, and probably cheaper. I think about 5-6 Destroyers are needed, backed up by 2-3 heavy Destroyers, but that's just my thoughts.

 

However, you played well to not underestimated him, and you could have easily been lax about, so credit to you there. Hope the next game is as easy.

[Mysticaria]

Heavy destroyers are essentially lascanon jetbikes. Why was he moving them close to you? Also, think you are right. That is not a very threatening Necron army. Still, congrats on the win. Sounds like you really have some decent squads there.

 

-Myst

[Eric the Green]

Congrats on the win.

 

I'm a bit late but wanted to put my 2 cents in anyway.

 

On sweeping advance and wbb: the necron codex states that if a necron is killed and there is another identical model within 6" the necron is put on it's side and at the begining of the necron players next turn they get to roll a wbb. It goes on to say that weapons that cause instant death and power weapons (in close combat) negate this ability.

The ressurection orb allows necrons to come back even if killed by one of those two methods.

Now the brb has something to say as well, but codices overrule the main rules in a conflict, so we can safely ignore that.

So the real crux of the issue is, does a sweeping advance count as a weapon that causes instant death?

 

If the answer is yes, then the res orb allows wbb.

 

If it the answer is no, then the res orb isn't necessary and 'crons get wbb anyway.

 

Some folks may disagree, and they're welcome to their opinions.

But in my opinion necrons are rubbish in 5th edition. This is due to the general popularity of mech lists, necrons nerf against vehicles, and the sweeping advance rules. And especially because the power creep in this edition seems to be mostly in assault units.

Even allowing wbb necron players still need another squad within 6" of the swept one (or anywhere with a tomb spider).

 

So after sweeping the first squad, you simply have to sweep the 2nd squad, and unless they have more than 2 squads of whatever unit, that's that.

 

This is exaserbated if the first squad you assault has the lord in it. If you use high initiative attacks to kill the lord first, then he's dead when the other necrons die, and they don't get to get up.

 

To summarize: any close combat heavy army has an extremely strong position vs necrons. So grey knights, blood angels, space wolves, etc will generally win vs crons. Unless the necron general has a lot more experience than the other side.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Congrats on the win.

 

I'm a bit late but wanted to put my 2 cents in anyway.

 

On sweeping advance and wbb: the necron codex states that if a necron is killed and there is another identical model within 6" the necron is put on it's side and at the begining of the necron players next turn they get to roll a wbb. It goes on to say that weapons that cause instant death and power weapons (in close combat) negate this ability.

The ressurection orb allows necrons to come back even if killed by one of those two methods.

Now the brb has something to say as well, but codices overrule the main rules in a conflict, so we can safely ignore that.

So the real crux of the issue is, does a sweeping advance count as a weapon that causes instant death?

 

If the answer is yes, then the res orb allows wbb.

 

If it the answer is no, then the res orb isn't necessary and 'crons get wbb anyway.

 

Some folks may disagree, and they're welcome to their opinions.

But in my opinion necrons are rubbish in 5th edition. This is due to the general popularity of mech lists, necrons nerf against vehicles, and the sweeping advance rules. And especially because the power creep in this edition seems to be mostly in assault units.

Even allowing wbb necron players still need another squad within 6" of the swept one (or anywhere with a tomb spider).

 

So after sweeping the first squad, you simply have to sweep the 2nd squad, and unless they have more than 2 squads of whatever unit, that's that.

 

This is exaserbated if the first squad you assault has the lord in it. If you use high initiative attacks to kill the lord first, then he's dead when the other necrons die, and they don't get to get up.

 

To summarize: any close combat heavy army has an extremely strong position vs necrons. So grey knights, blood angels, space wolves, etc will generally win vs crons. Unless the necron general has a lot more experience than the other side.

 

The sweep issue has been discussed with the tornoument's "judge". The rulebook states a swept unit is removed from the table and cannot be saved by any special rule. Being swept does not count as being killed by a power weapon or istant death. The only exception is "and the shall know no fear". There in no Necron rule that states they are not "removed from table" when they are swept.

 

The orb allows a Necron killed by a power weapon or istant killed to use the WBB rule. Neither the rulebook nor the Faq state that the orb remove the requirement of a same type model within 6". There were issue even about this rule but it is clear

 

Since the Necron Lord was the only unit alive at the end of combat and he was alone since he didn't joined any unit, so I was able to sweep it. He wanted to outmanouver my units: that's why his destroyer chassis Lord didn't join any unit.

 

I agree with you: Necrons have compatibilities issues with 5th Edition, issues that compromise the fun of many games involving Necron.

 

I would agree with you that his list was not the best. He needed at least another 10 Warriors, perhaps another 20, plus Destroyers. While heavy Destroyers are good, Destroyers are better IMO as they can still knock out light tanks with ease, and are better against infantry, and probably cheaper. I think about 5-6 Destroyers are needed, backed up by 2-3 heavy Destroyers, but that's just my thoughts.

 

However, you played well to not underestimated him, and you could have easily been lax about, so credit to you there. Hope the next game is as easy.

Thank You DarkGuard. :lol: