spu00sed Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 This morning, on the way back from the shops, I was thinking about GK Vs GK battles and how the Aegis would help. My mind then turned to what the Aegis would work on. So I got out my Codexs (codexii?) and started making a list. BRB Force Weapons YES Grey knight powers Psychic communion NO Hammerhand NO Dark Excommunication YES Might of Titan NO Quicksilver NO Sanctuary NO The Shrouding NO Smite YES The Summoning NO Vortex of Doom YES Warp Rift YES Heroic Sacrifice DEBATED Warp Quake NO Astral Aim DEBATED Holocaust YES Cleansing Flame DEBATED Reconstruction NO Fortitude NO Sanctified Flame YES Zone of Banishment NO Psychic Barrage YES Oddly eouugh the Daemonhosts powers are not psychic Space wolves Thunderclap YES Living Lightning YES Storm Caller NO Tempest’s Wrath NO Fury of the Wolf Sprits YES Murderous Hurricane YES Jaws of the World Wolf YES Blood Angels Boil Blood YES Fear the Darkness YES Might of Heroes NO Shackle Soul YES Shield of Sanguinius NO Smite YES The Blood Lance YES The Sanguine sword NO Unleash Rage NO Wings of Sanguinius NO Chaos Space Marines Doom Bolt YES Warptime NO Gift of Chaos YES Wind of Chaos YES Lash of Submission YES Nurgle’s Rot NO Bolt of Change YES Tyranids Cataclysm YES The Horror YES Leech Essence YES Paroxysm YES Psychic Scream NO Catalyst NO Dominion NO Onslaught NO Aura of Despair NO Hypnotic Gaze YES Warp Blast YES Warp Lance YES Eldar Powers Farseer: Doom YES Eldritch Storm YES Fortune NO Guide - NO Mind War YES Warlock: Conceal - NO Destructor YES Embolden - NO Enhance - NO Imperial Guard Powers: Lightning Arc YES Nightshroud NO Soulstorm YES Weaken Resolve YES Vanilla Marines Powers Smite YES Force Dome NO Machine Curse YES The Avenger YES Quickening NO Null Zone NO Might of the Ancients NO The Gate of Infinity NO Vortex of Doom YES Dark Angels Force Barrier NO Hellfire YES Mind Worm YES Note 1: Any area of effect spell I have said doesn’t trigger Aegis, since it isn’t directed at a unit. Note 2: Any spell that targets one unit, but once cast might hit another unit (Jaws Holocaust etc) would only Trigger Aegis if the original target unit has Aegis, not any subsequently hit unit(s) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheezeFezt Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Don't think it will work with Cleansing Flame. GK is not "targeted" per se. It's more of an AoE. For example, one can be part of a multi-unit assault against GK Purifier and Henchmen Warband. Cleansing Flame will affect both of them because they're both part of the assault. But neither were specifically targeted. JotWW and Blood Lance is yes. It's a shooting power, so you have to "target" the 1st affected model. (SW faq). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted April 21, 2011 Author Share Posted April 21, 2011 I'll change Blood lance and jaws. I wasn't sure about clensing flame or Heroic sacrifice. Both are used in close combat, so must be targeted against the unit in combat. It becomes blurry with multiple combats. Thanks for the help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Grey knight powers Dark Excommunication YES This should really be a no, as it would be pointless. It only works on things with Daemonic Gifts. Nobody would ever have a reason to use it on a GK. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKorpsman Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 JotWW is not necessarily a yes. If the target unit does not have the Aegis, it could still go through models that do have the Aegis without causing the effect. Example: Rune Priest targets a henchman warband with no attached GK IC's, then continues to draw the line through two GK units standing behind it. This would not invoke The Aegis since the GK units were not the target unit. All of the psychic shooting attacks that use the blast or large blast templates should have the caveat that if the target unit does not have The Aegis, but the effect scatters onto a unit that does, The Aegis is not invoked. I don't see how Heroic Sacrifice wouldn't be affected, since you have to target an enemy model for it to work. If that model has The Aegis, then you take the -1. You should add force weapons to your YES list as the use of a force weapon's ID property is specifically listed as a psychic power in the BRB pg. 50 and because it is a melee attack must be targeted at a specific unit/IC. Astral Aim, even though it seems like a buff spell, should be a YES because you are targeting an enemy unit. The power specifically uses the "target unit" terminology. There's an argument I suppose for the targeting references to be to the squad's shooting, but the way it is currently worded doesn't seem to indicate that. Note that The Aegis doesn't say "If an enemy Psyker attempts to target a model with The Aegis special rule WITH A PSYCHIC POWER...", emphasis mine. It only lists targeting as the requirement and invokes the penalty for any subsequent test, with an allowance for powers that aren't specifically targeted being exempt. So if a Purgation Squad targets a model with The Aegis, they have met the first requirement and so take a -1 IF they decide to use Astral Aim. They might FAQ this, but it will probably slip through the cracks as it will usually be irrelevant. Eldar Powers: Farseer: Doom - YES Eldritch Storm - YES, unless it is targeted on a unit without and scatters onto a unit with Fortune - NO Guide - NO Mind War - YES Warlock: Conceal - NO Destructor - YES Embolden - NO Enhance - NO Imperial Guard Powers: Lightning Arc - YES Nightshroud - NO Soulstorm - YES (with the scatter caveat) Weaken Resolve - YES Vanilla Marines Powers: Smite - YES Force Dome - NO Machine Curse - YES The Avenger - YES Quickening - NO Null Zone - NO Might of the Ancients - NO The Gate of Infinity - NO Vortex of Doom - YES (scatter caveat) Thanks alot for taking the time to put this list together. Very helpful to see what works and what doesn't. A good reference in general if anyone is in doubt, plus it gives the forum something else to debate the finer points of. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I don't see how Heroic Sacrifice wouldn't be affected, since you have to target an enemy model for it to work. If that model has The Aegis, then you take the -1. Agreed. You should add force weapons to your YES list as the use of a force weapon's ID property is specifically listed as a psychic power in the BRB pg. 50 and because it is a melee attack must be targeted at a specific unit/IC. Agreed. Astral Aim, even though it seems like a buff spell, should be a YES because you are targeting an enemy unit. The power specifically uses the "target unit" terminology. There's an argument I suppose for the targeting references to be to the squad's shooting, but the way it is currently worded doesn't seem to indicate that. Note that The Aegis doesn't say "If an enemy Psyker attempts to target a model with The Aegis special rule WITH A PSYCHIC POWER...", emphasis mine. It only lists targeting as the requirement and invokes the penalty for any subsequent test, with an allowance for powers that aren't specifically targeted being exempt. So if a Purgation Squad targets a model with The Aegis, they have met the first requirement and so take a -1 IF they decide to use Astral Aim. They might FAQ this, but it will probably slip through the cracks as it will usually be irrelevant. Totally disagree. Purgation Squads Astral Aim is cast on the Purgation Squad not the target unit. The only thing targeting the target unit is the weapons, not the power itself. If you were casting Astral Aim with the enemy as your target, then your enemy would gain the benefits of Astral Aim (not possible, but stated for the sake of understanding the mechanic of it). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I think Cleansing Flame is pretty clear. Example: Purifiers multi-charge Henchman Squad A and Grey Knight squad B. One psychic test is made to affect all models they are in combat with, and as one squad has the Aegis, the penalty applies to the test. I disagree with DK about Heroic Sacrifice and Astral Aim. Sort of. Heroic Sacrifice is not a psychic power used on an enemy unit; it is a self buff that causes the next normal attack to have a special property. However, the argument can be made that it is a "psychic melee attack" much like Smite is a psychic shooting attack, so the Aegis could apply. With Astral Aim, the Purgations are not casting "Faerie Fire" on the target unit, they are allowing themselves to see through and fire their mundane weaponry through the warp. The Aegis does not protect against non-psychic shooting attacks. Once again, when you look closely enough we find something else that GW needs to FAQ lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 People forget that "targetting" is not a defined game mechanic. If a psychic power will affect a model, it is the target of the power, even if the ability does not say target. Cleansing Flame is subject to The Aegis due to this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rose Princes Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Would the scatter caveat then be for tyranid warp blast also? and if targeting is not a game mechanic, then does the caveat even then apply? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 People forget that "targetting" is not a defined game mechanic. If a psychic power will affect a model, it is the target of the power, even if the ability does not say target. Cleansing Flame is subject to The Aegis due to this. Thats not entirely true. As far as Astral Aim is concerned, the target is clearly the Purgation Squad, even though the enemy target is going to feel the pain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Quoting The Aegis special rule, Grey Knight Codex pg. 21: A psychic power that does not specifically target a unit with the Aegis special rule does not suffer this penalty, even if the unit with the Aegis special rule is affected by the psychic power. With Heroic Sacrifice and Astral Aim, both powers are self-buffs, as the powers don't actually affect anything but who they're cast in (in this case, Crowe/Brotherhood Champion and the Purgation Squad). While an enemy model/unit with the Aegis may actually suffer the result as a consequence of the power being cast, the power isn't being cast on them. For example, it's not that the Brotherhood Champion hitting an enemy model (lets say a Grand Master) that removes him from play, but it is because the Brotherhood Champion has been buffed with Heroic Sacrifice. Likewise, it's not that Purgation Squads can automatically shoot anything within range, even if out of line of sight; it's because they have been buffed with Astral Aim, which allows them to designate a target, even if it is out of Line of Sight. Cleansing Flame has a deliberate target: any enemy model engaged in that same combat. You know beforehand who you are effectively attempting to "hit" with the power; thus, if there is even a single model with The Aegis engaged in combat with a Purifier Squad attempting to cast Cleansing Flame, they suffer -1 to their Leadership value. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 For example, it's not that the Brotherhood Champion hitting an enemy model (lets say a Grand Master) that removes him from play, but it is because the Brotherhood Champion has been buffed with Heroic Sacrifice. I'm with you DV8. The Champion uses a psychic power to give himself a melee attack out of initiative sequence. There is no target required prior to the psychic test. There don't even have to be valid targets present to allow the activation of the power. The activation requirement is only that the Champion loses his wound and would be removed as a casualty. 1.) Champion takes an unsaved wound 2.) Heroic Sacrifice is "unlocked" 3.) Psychic test is performed; no target has been selected, no Aegis applied ....a.) Test fails, Champion is removed as a casualty ....b.) Test succeeds, proceed to 4 4.) Champion is permitted 1 attack out of initiative order; only valid target is enemy IC in BTB ....a.) No enemy IC in BTB; Champion is removed from the board 5.) Champion rolls an attack against enemy IC in BTB ....a.) Attack hits; both are removed from the board ....b.) Attack misses; Champion only is removed from the board Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Destructor - YESFor the sake of completeness one could say that Destructor is affected, but since Warlock "powers are available permanently, so he doesn't need to pass a psychic test to use it" I'd actually switch it to NO. Dark Angels Psychic Powers: Force Barrier - NO Hellfire - YES Mind Worm - YES Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Great effort here; this will be a very handy list to keep with you. One question though, why not Murderous Hurricane (Space Wolves)? Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKorpsman Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Quoting The Aegis special rule, Grey Knight Codex pg. 21: A psychic power that does not specifically target a unit with the Aegis special rule does not suffer this penalty, even if the unit with the Aegis special rule is affected by the psychic power. With Heroic Sacrifice and Astral Aim, both powers are self-buffs, as the powers don't actually affect anything but who they're cast in (in this case, Crowe/Brotherhood Champion and the Purgation Squad). While an enemy model/unit with the Aegis may actually suffer the result as a consequence of the power being cast, the power isn't being cast on them. For example, it's not that the Brotherhood Champion hitting an enemy model (lets say a Grand Master) that removes him from play, but it is because the Brotherhood Champion has been buffed with Heroic Sacrifice. Likewise, it's not that Purgation Squads can automatically shoot anything within range, even if out of line of sight; it's because they have been buffed with Astral Aim, which allows them to designate a target, even if it is out of Line of Sight. Cleansing Flame has a deliberate target: any enemy model engaged in that same combat. You know beforehand who you are effectively attempting to "hit" with the power; thus, if there is even a single model with The Aegis engaged in combat with a Purifier Squad attempting to cast Cleansing Flame, they suffer -1 to their Leadership value. DV8 Nowhere does it say in Heroic Sacrifice that the ability is cast on the Champion. The power reads: Champion is killed -> Champion takes test -> Champion pass/fail -> Champion picks target if passed (targeting) -> Make an attack using Champions/targets WS -> Resolve hit or miss -> Champion dies. Just because the power utilizes the Champion's WS to make the attack doesn't necessitate it being a buff. Psychic Shooting attacks utilize BS, but are not buffs. It's a funny power in this instance, since it doesn't say anywhere it is cast 'on' the Champion. All the other buff/debuff spells specify friendly or enemy unit. This one does not. It also REQUIRES you to target an enemy model while using the power, while other buffs simply make you better. You could cast Hammerhand to buff yourself while not in an assault, but it wouldn't do anything, so you don't implicitly 'have' to use it. This power has a specific set of actions that must occur and a specific outcome that must be obeyed, in this case targeting an enemy model to smash. If that model has the Aegis, -1 on the test because it has been chosen (targeted). As I said above there is an argument to be made for Astral Aim and I don't think there is any hard and fast "this is the right way" answer without some clarification. This power affects both the firing unit (by allowing it to shoot a target it cannot see) and the target unit (by providing it a special cover save) in the same go. It also doesn't make any reference to being cast "on the unit" in the way the other buff spells are worded. It simply says that if the test is passed, the unit can fire at an enemy unit in range etc... Probably the best part of that to make an argument for the Aegis not working is the fact that shooting is optional after you cast the power (the use of 'can'). This would be consistent with my point of view on Heroic Sacrifice above. So I guess I'll buy into the whole Astral Aim isn't affected by the Aegis thing, but it's so game breaking! :confused: Edit: To echo Valerian's question - Why Murderous Hurricane? It totally should be affected if it targets a unit with the Aegis. It is a targeted spell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2732962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 I've updated the list with the extra spells, Thanks Seahawk and Death KorpsMan. Any that are being debated about have been changed to debated. I've included Dark Excommunication as a YES since it would effect a Grey Knight if they had any Deamonic gifts (some strange campaign event). Murderous Hurricane was a Typo, thanks for noticing it Valerian. It seems our biggest debate is what is a buff and directly effects the Grey Knights. To me Astral Aim is a buff since it allows the targeting unit to ignore the terrain. Similarly Heroic sacrifce is similar to quicksilver or might of sanguninius, it buffs the caster which then effects the enemy unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2733025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKorpsman Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I've bought in on the Astral Aim being a buff, as noted. I still can't get around the Heroic Sacrifice thing though. With a buff, no normal game mechanics get changed. Some might be added, within the confines of the power, but movement/combat still work the same. The buffed unit just does it better. In the case of Heroic Sacrifice, the combat mechanic doesn't work like normal. A model can attack in combat after death (normally impossible), swings at a target and if it hits the target dies (not how hitting and wounding normally work), all after first passing a psychic test (which you shouldn't be able to do, because the Champion is already dead). Just because the Champion gets used as a vessel for the power doesn't make it a buff, since it doesn't say it is cast on him in any way. I'd also like to ask how it is possible to buff something that has just died? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2733040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I've bought in on the Astral Aim being a buff, as noted. I still can't get around the Heroic Sacrifice thing though. With a buff, no normal game mechanics get changed. Some might be added, within the confines of the power, but movement/combat still work the same. The buffed unit just does it better. In the case of Heroic Sacrifice, the combat mechanic doesn't work like normal. A model can attack in combat after death (normally impossible), swings at a target and if it hits the target dies (not how hitting and wounding normally work), all after first passing a psychic test (which you shouldn't be able to do, because the Champion is already dead). Just because the Champion gets used as a vessel for the power doesn't make it a buff, since it doesn't say it is cast on him in any way. I'd also like to ask how it is possible to buff something that has just died? ;) I have to side on the "doesn't work on HS" side. Reasoning being that you pass your test, then have to hit the target to get it to function. This to me, is what makes it a buff and not a targeted psychic power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2733125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Blood Donator Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I'm not sure if it works on Blood Lance, as that goes in a direction, rather than at a target. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2733173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheezeFezt Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I'm not sure if it works on Blood Lance, as that goes in a direction, rather than at a target. The primary question to answer is how Aegis works. My reading is GK must be "targeted". If it's merely affected (say by AoE), then Aegis doesn't work. "Targeted" isn't a well-defined concept. My rule of thumb is if anything is a "shooting", then it needs to target something, so Aegis kick in. Outside of that, it's a gray area. Blood Lance is a shooting psychic power, even though the wording (thanks Mr Matt Ward) is poorly written and may be construed as "untargeted"; eg any direction. As a shooting power, you have to select a target and have line of sight to that target, etc. So the "any direction" should be read as "in the direction of your target". The merely affected part of the Aegis cover cases where the target is not the GK but the GK get hit anyway. Case like the Blood Lance first hitting a henchmen, then proceeding to hit a GK. The target is the first affected model (see Space Wolves FAQ regarding Jaw of the World Worm, specifically who he can charge). In this case, it's a henchmen, so Aegis does not kick in. Yes, GK is affected. But the merely affected part say it doesn't kick in. Likewise for psychic shooting with a blast. The target must be GK for Aegis to kick in. Example, you target a henchman with a blast, hence Aegis doesn't kick in. Make the psychic test without the modification from Aegis. If psychic test pass, you then proceed with rest of the shooting; eg placing the blast so it touches the henchman, scatter. If it happens to scatter and hit a GK, Aegis doesn't kick in. For one, the psychic test had been rolled already. Two, the merely affected clause kick in. For the same reason, even if the blast doesn't scatter and the GK was initially affected, Aegis still don't kick in. For area of effect, it gets to the grey area. My personal take is to be restrictive in interpretation of the rule and play "targeted" as though one would target a gun. On other word, do I have to say "I am going to shoot you with this power/gun." So Cleansing Flame isn't affected because one isn't targetting the enemy like one would shoot at them with a gun. I would say "Flame On" with no target specified. If it passed, then effects get worked out. Likewise for Astral Aim. I do not need to say "I'm targeting that enemy unit with Astral Aim". One merely say "Aim Up", if passed, work out effects (with effects being one no longer need line of sight to shoot one gun.) I understand the opposite (cleansing affect models in close combat, therefore they are targetted.) If you make either case, both are reasonable. So play like me and just ask your opponent how he want to play and play it that way. Or roll a dice. Or wait for the FAQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2733580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKorpsman Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I've bought in on the Astral Aim being a buff, as noted. I still can't get around the Heroic Sacrifice thing though. With a buff, no normal game mechanics get changed. Some might be added, within the confines of the power, but movement/combat still work the same. The buffed unit just does it better. In the case of Heroic Sacrifice, the combat mechanic doesn't work like normal. A model can attack in combat after death (normally impossible), swings at a target and if it hits the target dies (not how hitting and wounding normally work), all after first passing a psychic test (which you shouldn't be able to do, because the Champion is already dead). Just because the Champion gets used as a vessel for the power doesn't make it a buff, since it doesn't say it is cast on him in any way. I'd also like to ask how it is possible to buff something that has just died? :woot: I have to side on the "doesn't work on HS" side. Reasoning being that you pass your test, then have to hit the target to get it to function. This to me, is what makes it a buff and not a targeted psychic power. But it's the psychic power making the Champ swing. He's already dead and gone. It is this special psychic power, using his WS stat, in complete subversion of the assault rules, that works out how the power functions. It is only like a normal melee attack because it requires a to-hit roll based on the Champ's WS. Other than that it is nothing like a melee attack. So in this perspective it is doing more things that don't seem like buffs, because they don't follow the normal rules, than it does things that do seem like buffs. What part is the buff exactly? No stats are increased. The part where he gets to insta-gib one target? That ability is completely arbitrary. He can insta-kill a model whether he can normally hurt it or not. That goes beyond buff. Most importantly, the power isn't cast on him as other buffs are. It is cast, he targets an enemy model, and resolves the effect. Exactly as the Aegis requires in order to invoke its protection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2733759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 @ DK: the psychic power is allowing the Champion to swing. THAT is the buff. The power itself does not target an enemy; it is not "pass a psychic test, remove a model from the board". The way the power is worded, you don't have to have a valid target to cast the power- the only requirement to cast the power is that the Champion takes an unsaved wound. After you activate the power, the attack granted by the power is restricted to IC's in BTB with the Champion. So the power is not targeted, but the melee attack is. 1.) Champion takes an unsaved wound2.) Heroic Sacrifice is "unlocked" 3.) Psychic test is performed; no target has been selected, no Aegis applied ....a.) Test fails, Champion is removed as a casualty ....b.) Test succeeds, proceed to 4 4.) Champion is permitted 1 attack out of initiative order; only valid target is enemy IC in BTB ....a.) No enemy IC in BTB; Champion is removed from the board 5.) Champion rolls an attack against enemy IC in BTB ....a.) Attack hits; both are removed from the board ....b.) Attack misses; Champion only is removed from the board Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2733799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I've bought in on the Astral Aim being a buff, as noted. I still can't get around the Heroic Sacrifice thing though. With a buff, no normal game mechanics get changed. Some might be added, within the confines of the power, but movement/combat still work the same. The buffed unit just does it better. In the case of Heroic Sacrifice, the combat mechanic doesn't work like normal. A model can attack in combat after death (normally impossible), swings at a target and if it hits the target dies (not how hitting and wounding normally work), all after first passing a psychic test (which you shouldn't be able to do, because the Champion is already dead). Just because the Champion gets used as a vessel for the power doesn't make it a buff, since it doesn't say it is cast on him in any way. I'd also like to ask how it is possible to buff something that has just died? <_< I have to side on the "doesn't work on HS" side. Reasoning being that you pass your test, then have to hit the target to get it to function. This to me, is what makes it a buff and not a targeted psychic power. But it's the psychic power making the Champ swing. He's already dead and gone. It is this special psychic power, using his WS stat, in complete subversion of the assault rules, that works out how the power functions. It is only like a normal melee attack because it requires a to-hit roll based on the Champ's WS. Other than that it is nothing like a melee attack. So in this perspective it is doing more things that don't seem like buffs, because they don't follow the normal rules, than it does things that do seem like buffs. What part is the buff exactly? No stats are increased. The part where he gets to insta-gib one target? That ability is completely arbitrary. He can insta-kill a model whether he can normally hurt it or not. That goes beyond buff. Most importantly, the power isn't cast on him as other buffs are. It is cast, he targets an enemy model, and resolves the effect. Exactly as the Aegis requires in order to invoke its protection. No, see, your skipping an entire step. The psychic test is passed and the GK is buffed so that his one attack, if it hits, auto wounds and autokills with no saves. It is targeted on the caster not the target of the melee attack. Something Wycked has it laid out nicely in his post. Heres an analogy. Think Popeye with his spinach. He passes his psychic test (pops open the spinach and eats it), and is then buffed so his next punch knocks out Bluto (next hit autokills). Bluto didn't eat the spinach, Popeye did. Does that help any? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2733810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
koran Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 CheezeFezt has a very good point here. There is a lot of open debate about what "targeting" means. Does it just mean that if a power is working on a unit then that is the target? Or does it have to specifically have the word target in it? Be careful here, because if you say that any power that has a direct effect on a unit is targeting it then there's a big can of worms that can be opened here. Lets forget GK vs GK for a moment and I will explain. Im about to shoot at some orks in cover. So I cast astral aim on my unit so its shots get the bonus. But hang on, Ive just cast a psychic ability on a unit with aegis (my own unit). The aegis rules dont mention it only affects unfriendly powers.... So is this buff test at -1? If not why not? Im targeting my own unit with the power. This is especially dangerous if my own units are casting psychic powers on themselves when next to a dread! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2734189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 The Aegis clearly states that it affects the powers of ENEMY psykers only. It is in the first sentence of the rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228051-what-the-aegis-works-on/#findComment-2734218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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