Rules for Tournament List writing

[nurglephill]

I was unsure if this should go in the 'List' section or here...but I thought as it involves more of a tactical bent here would be best.

 

I have looked around and I haven't found a post like this. I confess to being pretty crappy when it comes to 'search fu' however so if there is already something please point me and lock this thread ^_^

 

 

Basically I am wondering about you tournament guys and how you go about writing a list. Do you have a set list of things your army list MUST be able to do? For example...er..."at least two units capable of dealing with AV14"...stuff like that.

 

Also, would anyone be willing to post their army list that came in the top 5 of a tournament and maybe explain why they picked the units they did, and/or how they performed in the tournament?

 

Anyway, many thanks.

 

Phill

[Mysticaria]

I usually play "all-comers" so there isn't too much tailoring involved in writing a tournament list. Number one rule is play something I'm comfortable with. Tournament isn't the time to try a bunch of new stuff, but rather a time to use the stuff you are good with and try to get the best results.

 

As far as list tailoring, I guess the more important thing is to have an idea what you will do if faced with different scenarios and opponents. Unless you want to play 'Rock-paper-scissors" you should at least have an idea how to handle all the different army types out there. Horde, mech, gunline, drop pod, etc... Also, try and do some research on the tournament and see if they will be using different scenarios, how many points will be awarded, etc... Some tournaments just use the book missions, but others have special scenarios that often benefit one troop type over another.

 

-Myst

[Destaro]

I'd be willing to throw a couple of lists your way if you so desire, but I must confess I have an unorthodox listing and play style that may be counter to standard web wisdom. But first, some questions:

 

1. What Codex do you use?

2. How many points are you playing?

3. What models do you own?

4. What models/units do you enjoy fielding?

5. What's your gaming experience? New to the game? Casual player? Competitve in your friends basement? Competitive in general?

 

I have a few basic tenants I like to follow when building a tournament list (assuming normal mission/deployment):

 

1. Fire Base: You need to have one (lascannons, missile launchers, autocannons, etc.) These will serve to knock out threats at long range, preserve objectives in/near your deployment zone, and provide all-important cover fire for the rest of your army.

 

2. Mobility: This may not mean transports necessarily (Drop pods, bikes, jump packs, and Gate of Infinity are all other types of mobility). Mobility allows you to react to your opponent when you need to, take/contest objectives, redeploy, or force your opponent to respond to you.

 

3. Anti-Tank: Personally, I play a dedicated anti-armor/heavy infantry unit for every 500 points played. In 2,000 points that generally means 4 units that can handle AV 12+ and/or Terminators.

 

4. Scoring Units: Again, one scoring unit for every 500 points I play. I've never found myself needing more than that, especially with the ability to combat squad.

 

5. Immediate Threat: I like something that my opponent has to deal with immediately. Whether its a Drop Podding Dreadnought, Scout Bikes, or Land Speeder Storms force your opponent to have to choose between things that may destroy them later or things that pose a threat now.

 

6. Hammer: You need something that scares your opponent. A Land Raider full of Terminators, a Relic Blade Captain and his Command Squad, Vanguard Veterans, or Sternguard with Lysander, it doesn't matter. It needs to look like a threat and be one when it gets there.

 

As a general tactic, I build lists that operate in three waves. My first wave presents a real and immediate threat to my opponent while my fire base takes out essential targets. My second wave consists of supporting units that can fill the gaps where my first wave and fire base are having issues. My third wave is my hammer, hitting wherever it can do the most damage.

 

Hope that helps and if you want a few lists, send me a message and I'll get them over to you.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

When I am make a list for a tournament, I try to pick my units to be able to deal with anything. I try to have my units not limited to one role, try to make sure they are able to do multi roles with in the army.

 

Warning there a lot of text on this as I am useing two of my favrout armies that are use in the tournament scene. My Iron Warriors I been useing for a long time & my recent Space Wolves army who have take to the tournament scene back in ELG Counter Attack.

 

Just I do not want many units left out as it where.

 

From my Iron Warriors tournament list it been

 

Iron Warriors 5th Grand Company

 

HQ

Warsmith Abhorred Riddick (Daemon Prince), Wings - 130

- The Daemon Prince is just a really cool model first & formost. Background wise with the model being my warsmith it a big bit as well as said vs Blood Angels. Also unit wise a Daemon Prince... though can not get some great upgread's as they use to in 3.5 days, they are more survible since they can no longer be killed by S10 Weapons, also there cheaper to be honsty.

In my Army the Daemon Prince one & only role is of course close combat & he the rock hard combat unit in my army with a might WS7 will pretty much slap anything he fight with a might S6 following.

I not went for any marks because where IW's & I want to stick to the background. While Psychic powers, to be honsty though Lash is good I just find it over rated & rather have more gun's while other power... again IW & my Warsmith background wise has never been a psychicer.

Also I want to prove it in games as well

 

See the mortal version of Warsmith Abhorred Riddick here back in my 2001-2002 army for my first tournament Conflict Scotland

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=151373&hl=

 

Elites

Squad 7: Tormentia,

4x Termies arm with Power Weapon & combi Plasma - 140

 

Squad 8: Proeliator

4x Termies arm with Power Weapon & Combi Plasma - 140

 

- Well apart from the Daemon Prince, when I pick armies I like my unit to have a min of two roles in the army, as you will see most it shooting as well as dealing great in combat (depend what there against of course). With the Termies was another "I like the models & cool conversion". Also with Combi Plasma there great & cheap. On a unit of Termies who will ALWAY Deep Strike useing the Icon's best thing to ever have Icon Glory (if your going for God mark for normal Marines better just getting the cult unit them self), pick out small elite units/Monster or tanks (since I only have 4x Oblit & my Chaos Marines are usely in combat 95% of the time). The turn after Deep Striken, ether counter attack what ever my 10 man Chaos squad hold up, or go after small elite units with (if there still full strength of course) 12 Power Weapon attacks.

Also have a nice 2+ save alway great.

 

Troops

Squad 1: Iupatus Proeliator

9 Chaos Space Marines, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter, Icon of Glory

Champ, Power Weapon - 215

Rhino, Extra armour - 50

 

Squad 2: Be Graphicus

9 Chaos Space Marines, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter, Icon of Glory

Champ, Power Weapon - 215

Rhino, Extra armour - 50

 

Squad 3: Apocalypse

9 Chaos Space Marines, Melta Gun, Heavy Bolter, Icon of Glory

Champ, Power Weapon - 215

Rhino, Extra armour - 50

 

- 5th Ed as well all know is about troops. I found my three unit to do alright, did try adding a 5 man squad but took away so much needed punch in theforce & was going to try a unit Bezerker for this event but again it just took away part that where really needed.

In general as said I like my unit for a few role. Nothing more nicer (IMO) than seeing a squad of 10 Chaos just boltering a squad to death. Heavy Bolter there to make use of the Rhino Hatch in the even I face Hordes or when holding a object, also plastic devastators HB just look cool on chaos marines.

Rhino's, again with the release of 5th Ed tanks have became a little better (though I still not a fan of the defence weapon being S4 now ) they keep my troop safe (well unless there blow up of course) & mean when I reach the enemies line I can pretty puch punch grab them by the nose & punch there teeth in with mass bolter, follow by 10 marine charging in as don't underestamate (sp) normal close combat attacks.

But yes Rhinos are also there for blocking true line of sight as well in the event stuff dose not go to plan or when I am holding the object as last thing you want is your unit wipe out.

 

I did not go for any cult unit (though as said above I have Bezerker painted up). Just again it Iron Warriors, sure I can use count as & there fearless... but just again want to prove that basic Chaos Marines do great as well.

 

Heavy Support:

Squad 5: Excessus Fillius

2 Oblits - 150

 

Squad 4: Oburo

1 Oblit - 75

 

Squad 6: Hydra Infensus

1 Oblit - 75

 

- Obliterators... it Iron Warriors, it why I started them. My friend who use to work for GW that the time back when Chaos Marine just came out for 3rd Ed made a really cool Thasound Son force with Obliterators for support. The conversion where really great & so I copy his idea but with my own changies of course.

Index Astarties came out & I just really like the Iron Warriors background (since it was a bit more detail), I like the new art work & the image it give of Iron Warriors, seen about they where allow more Obliterators (back when they use to be rubbish game wise).

Anyway.... Obliterators role is to alway set up hiden behind the Rhino until my first turn, there my only long range fire power in the army with the aim to deal with tanks & small elite units. There cheaper than Havocs, most all they can move & fire which it a lot better with the Dawn of War set up. Also with a nice power fist there able to handly it out in close combat. I will alway have Obliterators in my army.

 

In general when I was making my Iron Warriors, I am not a fan of stastic armies as I find them boring to use. For me my style of warfare has been Mobilty & I like to play aggressive with my armies alway have them in your face grab you by the nose & punch you teeth in (not really toward people, just mean this as the style of my gaming) as again I hate hideing the whole games & then just grab the Object last min with out doing anything to the oppent army, just not in me.

As you seen in my Iron Warriors force everthing can move & shoot you up, following with a mass assault with a might 30 Chaos Space Marines, 8 Termies, a Daemon Prince with Obliterators slow getting there giveing covering fire.

As you see from my photos & from other report my Iron Warriors rarely stay still.

 

I may not be the world greatiest gamer, but ever oppent I fight have said my games have been challegeing & if they win then it been pretty hard work. With 5th Ed I really have found it add onto this & really dose make you think a lot more, as after the tournament (listed below) everone I talk to all feel there mind just going on shut down after the event which is good as you want to feel challenge in games, you never want a easy game.

The main thing is after each game, you learnt from them & I feel from 5th Ed I really am learning a lot more which is great as it alway give you though for the brain & nothing worst than learning nothing from a game.

As GT 2006 show, when I went to my old local GW the gamer there where not the best, I would learn nothing new, got to GT 2006 & make so many mistake & was worst GT for me in term of games. But 2007 to now I am learning new things which is important & alway good for both myself & my oppent making the game more challegeing.

 

When I pick a army as said I make sure there able to do a min of two role as I am not much of a fan (apart from Daemon Prince) of taken units that are limited to one role.

I pick my army as long as it by the codex/rules, like wise I am more than happy to fight any army that it by the codex/rule book as ever army offer a challenge & come down to the player useing them as well it only if the oppent a git I would not fight them.

 

I have not found any weakness in my army, just come down to ether being out object, out played, etc... I dout I will change my army as said above I try a 5 man squad by dropping 2x Termies & a Heavy Bolter Marine but just did not feel right & those two Extra Termies & Heavy Bolter really did make the change/help I needed while play testing. While Bezerker I try them out... I will keep them for 1750pts but in 1500pts as said I want unit that can handly a min of two role's & just Icon's really work well in the event I need to keep one unit back to hold a home Object.

 

As said 5th Ed really has became less predictable in some way, as one model can still win the game or contest a object.

Hope this make sence

 

- Autocannon, as you will see I change my Heavy Bolter to Autocannon. To be honsty I never knew Autocannon where the same point cost as a Heavy Bolter. I though everthing went up by a extra few point. So see Autocannon where the same, quick swap them as this year tournament session will see a lot of mech armies from Vendetta Guards, Mech Eldar, Mech Tau.

Overall in the tournament they done well

 

However I'll be change my Plasma Guns into Meltas & useing the spare pts to give Champions combi Melta as we all know the "curse" of the melta.

 

As for doing in tournament. My Iron Warriors have been though diffrent ranks, so 5th ed since 2008

 

ELG 40k Radio World Wide War - 5th in Scotland, 38th World Wide

Stirling Wargaming Rapid Fire 2008 - 4th overall, I was 3pts away from 3rd place, 2nd Best army

ELG Conpulsion 2009 - 2nd place was 100pts away from 1st

ELG Counter Attack 2009 - 4th overall, again a mere few pts away from 3rd place overall, Best army award

Stirling Wargaming 2009 - 7th overall, Best army award

 

While my Space Wolves I recently been useing in the tournament scene. I also added in as much re-rolls as possible or thing like Chooser of the slain & Wolf Tooth, just to help my dice out, even then it dose not help :cuss

 

The Gate of Morkai Strike Force

 

HQ

Rune Priest Dilios Gunnar

Rune Priest, Runic Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag & Krak Grenades, Chooser of Slain, Wolf-tooth necklace – 120

Psychic power: Living Lighting, Jaws of the World Wolf

 

- Rune Priest is here to help against Psycher, though it wired I rarely fought the Lash or the Eldar seer council. But not only that, the Rune Priest power as well are great. Living Lighting is the one I use the most to be honsty as the Unlimited range help out if I a trying to take out units for Kill Points, object from holding to contesting. The d6 is random & can help or not but it still a great power.

Like wise being able to wound Daemons on a 2+, I been battle a fair few Daemons armies in the Throne of Skulls GT, like wise Chaos Marines armies are usely led by a Daemon Prince.

Jaws of the Wolf more to be there, to take on Necrons, Nids, Death Guards, Orks, etc.... But I've rarely use it in the tournament to be honsty, seem to be friendly games.

 

Wolf Tooth there to help me in Combat, hitting on 3+ all the time. As there are a few thing out there that can reduce your WS, Necrons have Flayed once, Blood Angels Deathmask as a few exsample.

Chooser of the Slain for +1 Bs when fire, again as said all about help my dice out. You be suprise how many 2's I actule roll.

 

Elites

Dreadnought Rothgar the Skald

Dreadnought, Dreadnought close combat weapon w/Storm Bolter, Smoke Launcher, Searchlight, Twin Linked Lascannon, Extra Armour, Wolf-tooth necklace – 160

 

Dreadnought Odin

Dreadnought, Dreadnought close combat weapon w/Storm Bolter, Smoke Launcher, Searchlight, Plasma Cannon, Extra Armour, Wolf-tooth necklace – 140

 

- A lot of people have told me to drop the Dreadnoughts for Rune Priest & Long Fangs in 1500pts list. But I enjoy useing them. THe reason I take them, gaming wise is there armour 12.

I am able to hold up units like Bloodcrusher, Incubi, Lighting CLaw terminators, Banshies among many more units. No matter how many Grey Hunter I have there only so much damnge you can do to three big unit of Bloodcrusher & then they will assault & slaughter you. So the Dreadnought help hold these units up, while the rest of my army deal with units that could harm my Dreadnought, so Grey Hunter could gun down that Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon of Khorne.

On top of this there mobile, I like move & fire.

The Lascannon because I find Assault cannon over rated & rending in general ever single 4th Ed. Also I'm old school as this was the old set up, it also give me that range in the event I am immobile.

The Plasma Cannon there to help deal with unit hold object & Deep Strike units.

 

Wolf Tooth is also there as again to help me hit, again be suprise how many 3's I'd roll. Also it being follow up by a S10, so 2+ to hit.

 

Extra Armour. I want to keep my units on the move as this can change a game say if I am near a object to contest, as the last thing I want to do it be six inch's away from a object only to not be able to move or fire, not fire I can handly but I want to move & in the event I want to assault.

Not only this but if a unit in combat & have Grenades. They can hit you by WS if your immobile, but also if you are not able to move & fire result. So I rather have that Melta Bomb hitting me on 6's due to not being able to fire.

 

While model wise they add focuse to the unit.

 

Wolf Guards:

Sevn, Frag & Krak Grenades, Power Fist, Combi Melta – 43

Edgtho, Frag & Krak Grenades, Power Fist, Combi Melta – 43

Rethel, Frag & Krak Grenades, Power Fist, Combi Melta – 43

Haltaf, Frag & Krak Grenades, Combi Melta – 23

 

- I take Wolf Guards over the tenth Grey Hunter, as to be honsty I rather have a model that has a Combi though one shot gun & a Close Combat unit as I enjoy getting into combat. The Power Fist is there due to the Wolf Guard having two attacks, while a Grey Hunter would only get the one basic. They will join my unit of Grey Hunter to give that boost in combat.

But not only this I also take the Wolf Guard over the tenth Grey Hunter because of the Ld9. As said I enjoy getting into close combat & do not hold back. Combat is alll about Ld's now as it where when you start taken wounds, so I want to still be standing in the fight & not running away.

 

Troops

Grey Hunter Unit Trovald

5 Grey Hunter, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, close combat weapon, Frag & Krak Grenades, Power Weapon, Melta Gun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard – 120

Razorback, Searchlight, Smoke Launcher, Extra armour, Twin Linked Lascannon, Dozer Blade 5 – 95

 

Grey Hunter Unit Gnyrll

5 Grey Hunter, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, close combat weapon, Frag & Krak Grenades, Power Weapon, Melta Gun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard – 120

Razorback, Searchlight, Smoke Launcher, Extra armour, Twin Linked Lascannon, Dozer Blade 5 – 95

 

- I went for Razorback due to a conversion idea. But also game term it just help give me that range fire power somthing which Space Wolves lack but it is not a problem. I went for Twin Linked Lascannon to deal with the heavy armour tanks. But also like the Rune Priest give me that range to try & fire that units going for my objects or kill points.

 

As to the unit set up. I went for Mark of the Wulfen not because of the rending as said I rarely rely upon it & find rending over-rated. I went for this due to the extra attacks & it mean make my oppent make more save. As my friends say fire a Lascannon I will make my cover or Inv save, fire as many Lasguns & my units gone.

Power Weapon in there just so I can kill stuff out right & not rely upon oppent to fail there saves.

 

Wolf Standard in as re-roll all 1's in combat even for one turn help out. As Phil Kelly said in tale of four gamers. There will be a combat phase that you will need to go your way, so it why he has Banshies with a Farseer with doom & fourtune for the re-roll to hit & save I'd fear this over Harquins since re-roll Power Weapon over rending.

 

Melta to deal with tanks & so I can assult. As said for my IW I am replace the Plasma to melta. Help with tanks & as said so I can assault on the same turn so I am deny my oppent another turn to shot me down & take wounds off me or to get that Plasma Cannon or Leman Russ Ord temp to the face.

 

Grey Hunter Unit Ranek

8 Grey Hunter, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, close combat weapon, Frag & krak Grenades, Power Weapon, Melta Gun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard – 165

Rhino, Smoke Launcher, Searchlight, Storm Bolter, Extra Armour, Dozer Blade – 55

 

- This unit help act as bodyguard for my Rune Priest. Rhino allow him to use the hatch. As to the unit, pretty much the same as above.

 

Extra Armour as said I want to keep on the move in order to claim object or contest with the Rhino. I don't want to be a few inch away from it & not being able to move on the last turn.

Dozer Blade on so I can re-roll immobile for Difficult Terrain. Again the last thing I want to do is immobile my tanks on the last turn to get a object or to fail the Difficult Terrain in order to get that assault the follow turn with my unit of Grey Hunters. Lost count amount of time the Dozer Blades have save me.

 

Grey Hunter unit Freyr

5 Grey Hunter, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, close combat weapon, Frag & Krak Grenades, Melta Gun – 80

Razorback 40, Searchlight, Smoke Launcher, Extra Armour 15, Twin Linked Heavy Bolter – 55

 

- This unit is my baby sitting object unit. Though during the tournament they do just as much work as the above units. In 5th Ed it is all about object or Kpts. So I want the above units to focuse there assault & I want to go there know my object ok.

This unit of Grey Hunter will usely be supported by my Two Dreadnought since the Dread are a bit slower. Help deal with any nasty stuff.

 

I keep them cheap but they still pack a punch.

 

While the Heavy Bolter I went for this due to pts, conversion idea & just to help take down thing like Land Speeder from contest my object & again range to help take wounds on other units.

 

Fast Attack

Land Speeder unit Storm Wolves

2 Land Speeder, 2 Multi Melta, 2 Heavy Flamer – 140

 

- While I have the above unit to hold my Objects. I also need a unit to contest Objects. The Speeder have the speed or the abilty to deep strike to try get the object from the oppent, more so if it is the one object each mission (forget it name from the rule book). Just that mission usely end in draws 98% of the time from my experince.

So I want to try & contest that object.

As to the weapon set up. Multi Melta to take on tanks like Land raider like the above units, apart from I have a bit more range. While Heavy Flamer there to deal with Hordes like Nids or Orks, also to deal with oppent baby sitting object unit.

I mean there only so many times you can fire a Lascannon into a unit of Scout with there camo cape or Eldar Pathfinder who get brilliant cover save. But they can not handly Heavy Flamer.

 

Total - 1497pts

 

As for my Space Wolves tournament going

 

ELG Counter Attack - 9th, Best army award

Stirling Wargaming - 19th, was on the same table with very little terrain for all three rounds, but that least it was closer to the food & drinks. 2nd Best army

Throne of Skull Nov - No idea as the set up was a little wired, top 10 for best army nominee

Throne of Skulls April - 81st out of 150 people, top 10 for best army nominee

 

I've learnt a lot of new stuff for my Wolves & ever game been hard fought where both side barely have anything left alive.

 

Also on another note you will notice both armies are tank heavy. I like mobilty, I personial find static armies boring. I want to get into close combat & kick my oppent army teeth in as it where.

 

As my friend Paul (Monk Fish on here) said in ELG 40k World Wide War said in my IW battle report

Insane Psychopath is quite an aggressive player btw (the way he plays not his attatude). He did not mention this but when I had 2 transports full of c-marines and a unit of c-terminators arrive 4-12" from my D-cannons almost ontop of both the centre and left objectives.... I was not a happy chappy. I have played his Marine bike army a couple of times too, and he shows the same tendancy. Which is good because there is nothing more boaring than a player that hides at the back and never comits to a do or die stratagy!.

 

I never pick a army to deal with one army. A lot of experince in the tournament have taught me alway be ready for anything. I fought Nids for the first time when I attended Throne of Skulls last weekend there with my Space Wolves.

When Nov Throne of Skulls I fought Imperial Guard which was another first.

 

While for my IW back in 2007 I fought two Ork armies. Dispit people saying it would be all Eldar Seer council heavy or this army or that army. When in fact the armies they point out to be the most.... I never really fought them that all.

I only fought Lash Chaos army twice with my IW & it over rated, oppent was great but it another reason why I am happy to go Tank heavy & because I have a lot of experince with Chaos Marines, my Iron Warriors are near ten year of collecting. I collect chaos in general since I started the hobby 15 year ago, since end of 2nd ed.

 

Hope this helps out. People can see my tournament report kicking about the fourm from my Iron Warriors to my recent Space Wolves saga's & tales.

 

When pick a army for me it

 

- Mobilty. You need to get object, you can easily out flank oppent, etc....

- Fire power

- Combat, you need a rock hard combat unit. Captain Idaho on these fourm has been useing Space Marine Honour Guards for his.

- Being able to hold a object & contest. Even if it a small 5 man Scout squad, keep them in reserve & hope they come on later.

- Be ready to battle anything as there might be a new popular tournament list out there that use for the first time in the event your attending.

- Keep in mind the mission, a lot of people have loss because they forgotten the mission goal like that object or kill point.

- Make sure you can deal with anything, though know you can not take on ever army. For me I suffer against Tau due to lack of experince.

- Battle as many armies as possible, as said I suffer vs Tau. I would like to battle more to get that experince & improve.

 

IP

[Vilicate]

IP is definitely right on the money in his lengthy post. ;)

 

I feel like the key to tournament list building isn't really what you take, it's how you plan on using it. As long as you're very comfortable taking units, and playing in a certain style, you'll do well. For instance, not particularly marine related, but I play a fairly different tournament eldar list, and often do quite well with it. I've won one 'ardboyz semi-finals and placed third in another.

 

I think the key component in your army is actually sitting down and thinking about it. What I do is ask myself this all important question: how does my army win the game? I think about what my actions would be in scenario games, in KP missions, against shooty armies and against melee armies. I usually sub in different builds, and carefully consider what actions I would take, doing out the math of my shooting or melee attacks against certain common builds that either I know are popular (for local events) or that are common in 'net lists (for away games).

 

I use the same idea when building my fantasy armies, which is my big tournament game. And that's why I feel I have two golden tickets this year to Vegas Finals. :tu:

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for that post IP, you really have helped me as much as you've probably helped the OP. Just yesterday I struggled with my friends new Space Wolves Drop Pod list, and I can now be certain that having played one a while back, they are one of my army's biggest weakness (that and railguns). I've been re-writing my list to get more from it, and your points have been good, your point about needing a combat unit in particular is one I'll looking at in great detail in context with my army list.

 

In regards to your lists, you tend to only use Rhinos in Chaos, and Razorbacks with Dreads and Speeders in Space Wolves. I've commonly been playing with Rhinos, Dreads, Speeders and Vindys in Marines to get that saturation, and the Vindys are very good as a fire magnet. Do you feel you still perform well without a blatent armoured unit like a Vindy in your force? Or do your transports take a lot of firepower due to their absence? Thanks, again, a brilliant post.

[nurglephill]

Wow. Many many thanks to you all, especially you IP, awesome post! I am so grateful to you for taking all that time!!

 

I have much to ponder.

 

@Destaro: I will be using C:SM, I am very crap at gaming as I never really play. I am not looking for specific help for my army (I have a thread that has helped me already) more I am looking to see how people that play tournaments write lists and work out the best way to win. Then I can use that in my own thinking.

 

You guys have helped heaps AND been really interesting to boot.

 

Thanks again, and please feel free to keep posting :)

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Wow. Many many thanks to you all, especially you IP, awesome post! I am so grateful to you for taking all that time!!

 

I have much to ponder.

 

@Destaro: I will be using C:SM, I am very crap at gaming as I never really play. I am not looking for specific help for my army (I have a thread that has helped me already) more I am looking to see how people that play tournaments write lists and work out the best way to win. Then I can use that in my own thinking.

 

You guys have helped heaps AND been really interesting to boot.

 

Thanks again, and please feel free to keep posting :D

 

No worries.

 

You might want to check out Captain Idaho post in the Ultramarine area & his recently Throne of Skulls April tournament report, same event my Space Wolves went to. He been working hard on the Space Marines since the codex was updated. He give a lot of insight as well to his own army & why he pick the units he did. Worth check out his army list as well as he give some good though.

 

DarkGuard Posted Today, 12:02 PM

Thanks for that post IP, you really have helped me as much as you've probably helped the OP. Just yesterday I struggled with my friends new Space Wolves Drop Pod list, and I can now be certain that having played one a while back, they are one of my army's biggest weakness (that and railguns). I've been re-writing my list to get more from it, and your points have been good, your point about needing a combat unit in particular is one I'll looking at in great detail in context with my army list.

 

In regards to your lists, you tend to only use Rhinos in Chaos, and Razorbacks with Dreads and Speeders in Space Wolves. I've commonly been playing with Rhinos, Dreads, Speeders and Vindys in Marines to get that saturation, and the Vindys are very good as a fire magnet. Do you feel you still perform well without a blatent armoured unit like a Vindy in your force? Or do your transports take a lot of firepower due to their absence? Thanks, again, a brilliant post

 

I just preffer mobilty warfare as you seen with both IW & SW. I hate hidden which I already said & I find static armies boring to use., while Hordes I already done a Ork force. It all about tanks, amount of time people ask where my army is when they are all mounted up.

 

Not really sure, never really had any unit as Fire magnets. I never take Vindcators just more a personial thing, even back when it was IW only for Chaos Marine. Just alway took a Predators back then with Twin Lascannon & Heavy Bolter with Daemon Possessed.

 

But same time it also why my Tanks have Extra Armour. I do not care about the point cost. I want my tanks to be on the move & so more on the Space Wolves as Wolves it is all about getting into combat. I usely move 12 inch turn 1 pop smoke where needed or know oppent follow turn will move & I will have less than 50% of cover.

 

Then follow turn be move 6 let my tanks fire & trying to get those well planned assault. Also it about trying to limit return fire. Suprise me a lot how people set up say Lootas so far to the right or left & because I tend to set up second I can put there weapons out of Range. Check my 40k double where me & my team mate took on Orks & Dark Eldar, how we put the Lootas out of range for the whole game.

 

Just I am well know for make Inv/Cover saves. As my friends have said many times. Fire a single Lascannon & I will make my save. Rapid Fire me with Lasgun or Bolter & I will fail. In fact Throne of Skulls News from the front exsplain this from my round 2 vs Rob & his Storm Crows, use SW codex & had 69 models which prove my point, though I did make 90% of my save during that game, over 100 Bolter rounds.

 

Jamie Farquhar's four Space Wolf vehiclese made 13 (!) cover saves in a row thanks to an extremely lucky forest against Rob Waller's Storm Crow Space Marines. Surely Russ was watching over the terrain placement this moring....

 

Another point is baby sitting unit.

 

Phil Kelly said in Tale of four gamers back when 5th ed was release. He take grots or Guairdien. There cheap & can hold a object. It why I also have my not so tool up Grey Hunter in a Heavy Bolter Razorback.

For Marines you got Scouts so you can flank them let them take that one object the oppent left behind or to claim your own which is the great thing about flank them. Also mean being in reserve they will not be blasted. As said with my speeder, there goal to take down units like this be it move flat out & getting close as soon as possible or to Deep Strike near by to release the Heavy Flamer. But keep the unit of Scout in reserve mean you will not suffer this problem, allow you to come on & try Bolter my Speeder down or to assault in with Krak Grenades or fire that Combi Melta the Sarg will have.

 

Like wise when pick the army, think what role they are play. Why take 7 Space Marines for exsample when 5 can still hold a Object. Or why give a shooty unit say like Dark Angels Veterans with Lascannon, why give them a Flamer as you will rarely be in range to use it anyway, when that Flamer might be best suited in that Assault Marine squad.

Or another exsample, why take a tool up Grand Master from the Grey Knight when you could take a Brotherhood Champion or a =][= to save pts. Maybe the Grand Master held you because of his specil rule so in object mission you can make those two Dreadknight into scoring units!!!! or in Kill point allow them to Flank on. But same time if your not take him for that abilty, then maybe a Brotherhood champion or =][= might be better for your 1 HQ.

 

Thing of the army as a whole & how each unit help each other.

 

Another exsample is why take that unit of Assault Marines when your army very shooty. Maybe they are held back to count assault or to deep strike down & to take on hidden units??

 

Don't weaste points. When I was play testing my Space Wolves, my Rune priest had saga & ruinic armour (put back in 1750pts due to 20pts spare & nothing to get really). I drop these in order to take Wolf Standard after it was exsplain to me a bit clear why they are so great.

Like wise the Saga never done much as if my Rune Priest was in combat he would be pick off by power fist. So I try to keep my Rune priest in the Rhino unless I know his combat abilty will come in handy.

It also why I drop Bjorn from my list, I already have a HQ as my Rune Priest, but also Bjorn though good was not help my army out. I drop him, give one of my Dreadnought the Plasma Cannon to make up for Bjorn loss.

Like wise I use the points to get my Heavy Bolter Razorback Grey Hunter unit so I had them to hold my object while the other Grey Hunter could focuse on the main assault. Then I took a Speeder with the remain points so I can contest. So 270pts? for Bjorn or 80pts for Grey Hunter w/Melta, 55 for Razorback with Extra Armour, 140pts for two Speeder with FLamer & Multi Melta & then 23pts for a Wolf Guard with Combi Melta to help my Grey Hunter with that extra Ld.

 

While I had Bjorn I struggle to take or claim object as it would mean one of the three unit of Grey Hunter would have to go back & hold my object. While rest of my force felt like it was hitting a brick wall trying to break though. Now I am able to focuse & break though & can relax know there are unit to hold & contest object as said there.

 

I've heard of Deathstar unit which are highly tooled up unit. So Wolves I think Logan, Wolf Guard Terminators, Land Raider, that 600+pts. It easy to avoid the unit if you deploy second & make them not as effective.

In Stirling Rapid Fire I fought Lighting CLaw/Thunder Hammer terminators with Librarin in Raider & mange to avoid them, done hit & run tactic in term I would use my range power to fire them, once down to a safe leave I would then move in for the Kill & taken them in close combat.

It also did not help my oppent that he immobile his Terminators Land raider on a destroyed Land Speeder. So ment the unit had to get out & try get near for combat, suffer many turn of shooting from me from lascannon to Plasma Cannons, etc...

 

Again this just point out becareful when spend pts rememeber why you are spend them & don't put to make eggs in one basket.

 

Just think why each unit being taken, why are you taken it, what use to it have for the army, how dose it help out your army complete the mission. It all down to play testing as well. Talk to the oppents & go though the games so you can both learn & improve.

 

IP

[Brother Tual]

IP has provided some great advice.

 

Mobility is king.

 

IP said that he prefers units that can perform two or more roles. Mobility is the key element in this because without movement it is hard to maintain a desired role (kiting - maintaining range or closing range etc) If you look at IP's unit selections, all units can operate at range and all units can operate up close - DOnt focus on if a unit is AT or anti infantry, it is not important. The choice to operate at either range is HIS choice and will be the result of his tactical needs rather than what his opponent allows. To be good at doing this you need to play test and know your list - Also another very important point put forward by IP.

 

Mobility is very helpful in actually getting to objectives. Obviously this helps you win games but it also helps you win convincingly. Most tournaments reward points or extra points on a sliding scale depending on how well you beat your opponent. Being able to reach 4 out of 5 objective on the last turn not only secures a win but it will also (potentially) grant extra points to your winning margin and award bonus points as a result.

 

The actual make up of your list is dependant on your play style. I dont follow a formula when building a list for tournament play, however in any tournament I can reasonable expect to play an ork list, a marine/chaos list and an eldar/DE list. All three lists play differently and require different responses. I dont suggest taking tailored units for any one given enemy but option your units to play accordingly. An example may be a tactical squad with plamsa gun and heavy bolter/ML in a rhino.

 

Something IP has hinted towards are soft scores. These scores are often the difference between coming 3rd or 15th. Death Star units, point and click armies, spam and special characters (without the right fluff list) will make it hard to score well. A beautifully painted army really helps 'sell' your list. You have to be mindful of your list and how it appears to your opponent. Some tournaments have TO determined soft scores (often going by a check list) or player choice determining or adding bonuses to your soft scores. Find out how soft scores are determined and build a list accordingly. Painting skill goes further with players choice more than a break down of unit choice btw.