Grey Knight Lessons learned

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

So, just got back from my LGC having played a game against some new Grey Knights with one of my friendly lists and thought I'd share both the battle and some lessons learned. As Grey knights are my second army I thought I'd be fine with my largely foot army with a packetful of plasma... I was wrong... my opponent rode his luck expertly, played his army to its strengths and I made some tactical errors at key moments in the final two turns.

 

I had 4 packs of Grey hunters (2 in rhinos, 2 on foot, all with Pack leaders), 10 wolf guard with mostly PA stormbolters and two tda with assault cannons, a rune priest in tda and a lone wolf. Fun, but hardly competitive as it would prove.

 

He had 2 vanilla storm ravens with a 5 man terminator squads + ICs (Grand Master and Librarian) and psrifle dread in each. All heavily magnetised - very cool. 16 models. Again, hardly competitive, but I had to catch them first though...

 

5 Objectives - pitched battle - He kept his storm ravens back in a corner as I advanced towards the objectives and he sunk my rune priest with 8 mindstrike missiles in turn one - ouch, perils of the warp overload! He then destroyed both my rhinos and I failed a bucketful of armour saves as my force lost about 25% of its number through the first 3 turns while my assault cannons patted harmlessly off the storm ravens when they were in range.

 

In turn 4, with my force controlling the middle ground and 3 of the objectives, he rushed both ravens down one flank ready for a turn 5 assault and claim of two objectives while he contested others. I managed to explode one with my 6 plasma shot Grey Hunter pack (I love them!) and, having passed about 20 psychic leadership tests already, he failed the pinning and the squad stood there like prawns. The other raven steamed up and dropped off its squad ready for a massive multi-charge, but with some tactical casualty removal I forced him to roll a 5 on his assault difficult terrain test, which he didn't.

 

At this point, I had weathered the storm and had both his terminator squads and ICs in rapid fire range - I still had four contesting packs myself and felt pretty confident. My squads unleashed hell on the grand masters squad in front of them, killing four and wounding the GM in their fire. I charged in to finish him off and, taking 7 casualties from the 7 attacks (buffed by the GM and libby), then smashed the remaining justicar and the GM into dust. He wisely ignored my wolf guard and lone wolf who couldn't hold objectives, and thus managed to combi charge the remants of two GH packs with his libby squad who had been pinned last turn. They crunched about 7 more Grey Hunters, but my power fist instant killed the libby and MoW'd another and I made my leadership test.

 

So, at this point I still controlled two objectives while he had none, but his four remaining terminators had only the 2 wolf guard and the lone wolf to fight off to control one. This they duly did - my opponent made an obscene number of 4++ and 5++ saves, so I killed not a single terminator with 6 wolf claw and 3 powerfist attacks while I failed all my 5++ first time :D . He then managed to contest my two objectives (which the packs controlling were looking pretty worse for wear after taking 5 turns of two psrifle dreads firing) with the two dreads at one and the remaining storm raven at the other, all of which my special weapons failed to scratch yet again. I rolled a two and it was over at the end of 6 - I lost 1 objective to 0 - great game though. It felt at certain points like both armies were literally going to get wiped out - I had 7 models left at the end, and strangely, so did my opponent. He had lost 9 models, while I had lost just over 50.

 

So, here are my key lessons learned:

 

-Don't underestimate mind-strike kissiles as I did - it toasted my rune priest in tda in turn 1, leaving me with no psychic defence (which is vital against GKs). Two Rune priests is probably wise... the nullify bubble alone justifies the points.

 

-The librarians can cause all kinds of problems with some really handy powers (alot like ours) - sanctuary is a real pain and shrouding is also really nasty when used on storm ravens, giving them a 3++ save at speed while they fire away with PoTMS and dump terminators and dreadnoughts all over the place.

 

-Their characters are still pretty vunerable to instant death despite all their trickery - I killed both with wolf standard backed powerfist wolfguard - As always, position your powerfists against the ICs and they crumble despite being real points sinks. Even with swords they only have 4++ saves, so with counter attack you will crunch them pretty regularly.

 

-Beware the Buffed I6 halberds - they really do cut through power armour (and tda) when backed by the S5 of hammerhand and the GMs grand stratergy re-rolls.

 

-The 'and finally'... An army with no range weapons over 24" is unwise but leads to fun games!

 

Any other thoughts from others are welcome - the tournament scene is going to be swamped with GKs over the next few months, and while they aren't uber-competitive I'd be interested to know how others are getting on against them and whats working for you. Post away!

 

Nos.

[DeathKorpsman]

-Their characters are still pretty vunerable to instant death despite all their trickery - I killed both with wolf standard backed powerfist wolfguard - As always, position your powerfists against the ICs and they crumble despite being real points sinks. Even with swords they only have 4++ saves, so with counter attack you will crunch them pretty regularly.

 

Actually, the only standard (not-named) HQ that doesn't have a 3++ in combat while wielding a sword is the libby. All their other HQ's get Iron Halos, which mean they have a 3++ in CC if they are carrying swords.

 

Interesting read. I've posted elsewhere about the dangers of halberds and you're restated it well here. I'd really recommend not letting GK's get the charge off if you can avoid it, because denying them those charge attacks is much more important than getting in some shooting unless you are confident your shooting will whittle them down to almost nothing. Even a handful of GK's is pretty scary on the charge.

[Grimtooth]

I am sorry, but what were you thinking?

 

1. No long range fire at all.

2. Moving TOWARDS an enemy where everyone is equipped with power weapons.

3. NO LONG RANGE FIREPOWER AT ALL!

[Valerian]

I think Wolves will quickly discover that they'll need to keep their/our Rune Priests in Rhinos if they want any chance to survive. The Rhino might get popped, but hopefully not right away. Mindstrike missiles and Vindicare Assassins are designed to take out Psykers early, thus freeing up the Knights' ability to get maximum use out of their multitude of Psychic powers.

 

Valerian

[clanfield]

only the vindicare can hit u if your rune priest is attached to a squad watch out for the multi space monkeys they can kick a lot of las canon or m melta fire out for a small points cost.

i agree there libbys are njasty but we do have good psc defences of our own again im following ramses thoughts you need good anti tank wepons in any list (even against demons)some nice old long fangs go a long way top stopping your enermy controling the field as the plas guns are better spent shooting up the troops the best way of knocking off there 3+ invi saves is simply massed bolter fire lots of it ,i nearly always put 1 squad of hunters in a drop pod as asset to react to my enermys depolyment as well butin this case a unit of scouts with a melta gun would have been magic too

[DeathKorpsman]

only the vindicare can hit u if your rune priest is attached to a squad watch out for the multi space monkeys they can kick a lot of las canon or m melta fire out for a small points cost.

i agree there libbys are njasty but we do have good psc defences of our own again im following ramses thoughts you need good anti tank wepons in any list (even against demons)some nice old long fangs go a long way top stopping your enermy controling the field as the plas guns are better spent shooting up the troops the best way of knocking off there 3+ invi saves is simply massed bolter fire lots of it ,i nearly always put 1 squad of hunters in a drop pod as asset to react to my enermys depolyment as well butin this case a unit of scouts with a melta gun would have been magic too

 

Until there is an FAQ, this is not true. The Mindstrike Missile only has to 'hit' a psyker to cause PotW. Hits are determined directly by the lay of the template/power/whatever, while wounds are allocated by the controlling player. This is why you can 'snipe' with JotWW and other abilities. So long as the Mindstrike Missiles blast template ends up over the RP he will take PotW, even if his controlling player allocates wounds to models that aren't under the template. There have been long discussions about it on the GK boards.

 

Riding around in a transport is really the way to go with an RP when playing against GKs.

[Hellios]

only the vindicare can hit u if your rune priest is attached to a squad watch out for the multi space monkeys they can kick a lot of las canon or m melta fire out for a small points cost.

 

I have to disagree with Jokearo being cheap lascannons... they are not expensive as lascannons go but they are not the best shots and are pretty soft... I will have to check their rules but I think the lascannons are still heavy? So they have to sit still. So you have three choices! 1) Rhino... stops shaken and stunned (fortitude) but only has a couple of fire points. 2) Chimera, has more fire points but suffers from shaken and stunned... 3)Terrain with a good cover save... maybe the best options but with the normal draw backs of stationary units and if you have something that can get to them quickly with small arms or into CC (maybe Wolf Scouts?) they will still be in trouble. 4) Myself I would go with 7 psykers for 4 points less than two jokaero or 8 for 6 points more (I think I have the points right... don't hold me on that!) for S9/10 AP1 templates... sure I could blow myself up but that is part of the fun!

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

I am sorry, but what were you thinking?

 

1. No long range fire at all.

2. Moving TOWARDS an enemy where everyone is equipped with power weapons.

3. NO LONG RANGE FIREPOWER AT ALL!

Erm. Where do I start with this? Maybe just by saying thanks for your time.

 

If I wanted to win at all costs I would have turned up with my 18 Long fangs with missile launchers in twin-linked lascannon razorbacks and smashed his two storm ravens out of the sky in the first couple of turns. I actually enjoy trying to play with an army that challenges me to, and in this case I lost but had a great game.

 

Deathkorpsman: True about the 3++ saves, but ultimately they are T4 and not eternal warriors so only one hit has to get through to smash the 150+ point model who have a horrific array of dirty tricks available to them. As you say, this is one of those cases where the reliable counter attack saves you from absolutely nothing - Each time he charged I lost at least 7 models from his 9-15 attacks because of re-rolls and blasted stacking strength psychic powers.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I think Wolves will quickly discover that they'll need to keep their/our Rune Priests in Rhinos if they want any chance to survive. The Rhino might get popped, but hopefully not right away. Mindstrike missiles and Vindicare Assassins are designed to take out Psykers early, thus freeing up the Knights' ability to get maximum use out of their multitude of Psychic powers.

 

Valerian

 

:) One of the worst cases of split personality disorder I've seen! ;)

 

I guess I'll be in trouble as my three rune priest will be arriving via drop pods. But...what does not kill you makes you stronger, thus losing=winning after I learn to keep my list static and find workarounds. ;)

[Grimtooth]

I am sorry, but what were you thinking?

 

1. No long range fire at all.

2. Moving TOWARDS an enemy where everyone is equipped with power weapons.

3. NO LONG RANGE FIREPOWER AT ALL!

Erm. Where do I start with this? Maybe just by saying thanks for your time.

 

If I wanted to win at all costs I would have turned up with my 18 Long fangs with missile launchers in twin-linked lascannon razorbacks and smashed his two storm ravens out of the sky in the first couple of turns. I actually enjoy trying to play with an army that challenges me to, and in this case I lost but had a great game.

 

Deathkorpsman: True about the 3++ saves, but ultimately they are T4 and not eternal warriors so only one hit has to get through to smash the 150+ point model who have a horrific array of dirty tricks available to them. As you say, this is one of those cases where the reliable counter attack saves you from absolutely nothing - Each time he charged I lost at least 7 models from his 9-15 attacks because of re-rolls and blasted stacking strength psychic powers.

 

The point wasn't to bring 3 packs of Long Fangs for missile spam, the point was you didn't bring ANY long range fire power.

[Valerian]

I think Wolves will quickly discover that they'll need to keep their/our Rune Priests in Rhinos if they want any chance to survive. The Rhino might get popped, but hopefully not right away. Mindstrike missiles and Vindicare Assassins are designed to take out Psykers early, thus freeing up the Knights' ability to get maximum use out of their multitude of Psychic powers.

 

Valerian

 

:lol: One of the worst cases of split personality disorder I've seen! :P

 

Ha! Absolutely! I've definitely been trying to look at the challenges from both perspectives as a primarily Space Wolves player who also happens to have a large pure Grey Knights army. I'm very comfortable with what I've put together over the years for my Wolves, and feel that I can build multiple types of flexible, effective lists.

 

V

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

The point wasn't to bring 3 packs of Long Fangs for missile spam, the point was you didn't bring ANY long range fire power.

I understand that. My point was that I knew that and tried the army anyway because it looked (and was) fun.

 

I agree that its not tactically astute - I made that point at the beginning of the original post. I learned more from losing, as I usually do. I suppose that if I had taken a whole load of ranged firepower and tabled the guy I wouldn't have posted anything at all as I would have learned little. I was just trying to open a door to a discussion about how wolf players are finding playing Grey knights and the tips and tricks that have been learned from both success and failure.

[Nrthstar]

The point wasn't to bring 3 packs of Long Fangs for missile spam, the point was you didn't bring ANY long range fire power.

I understand that. My point was that I knew that and tried the army anyway because it looked (and was) fun.

 

I agree that its not tactically astute - I made that point at the beginning of the original post. I learned more from losing, as I usually do. I suppose that if I had taken a whole load of ranged firepower and tabled the guy I wouldn't have posted anything at all as I would have learned little. I was just trying to open a door to a discussion about how wolf players are finding playing Grey knights and the tips and tricks that have been learned from both success and failure.

 

At this rate we're going to rival the gk board for open topics about gks. Understandably so though as it's a strategy shock for us to no longer have reliable dominance in cc.

 

This Article http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/04/gre...ombat-army.html

Is interesting to consider though, since essentially they are more dominant in the 12.1" -24" range. Thankfully I finally got a second rhino/razor, so now bolter for will be less of a concern with two squads in light transport and one on my land raider. Add in my 2 dreads and my long fangs squad and I feel prepared with an all comers list that is ready for gks too.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Points have been made both ways on long range firepower and the lack thereof in the original list.

 

Please...

 

1. DO keep talking about how long range firepower may/may not help.

 

2. Please DONT talk about why it was not in the original played list.

[Godhead]

I played my boy with my fledgling Grey Knight army. He played my 1750 wolves list and I've found that terminators (including paladins) just weren't that impressive. The same things I use to bust tanks works just as well vs them. Rune priests are an absolute nightmare for Grey Knights. Without access to those cool psychic powers they can struggle. The halbards are nasty, but if you deny them the charge and hammerhand (or might of titan) they tend to struggle with wounds.

 

He melta'd me instantly killing paladins, His pack leader with fist scored three more instant kills in two rounds of combat, the wolf lord and twc retinue was nasty, they ended up killing my NDK, draigo and pally squad, and finished off my other pally squad.

 

I played a 2k game against his nids and a 10 man squad of termies at it to termagaunts.....spawned from 3 tervigons...they just shot and assaulted... shot and assaulted.. and overran them. It was sort of depressing to watch tbh.

 

I don't think there is anything super exceptional to worry about. Their units are definitely no worse than bloodletters, bloodcrushers, or terminators. In fact I think BT and BA assault squad termies are far and above better. Put them against each other and if BA or BT get the charge they wound easier and have better survivability. Hell vanilla TH/SS termies should eat paladins as every failed save = instant death.

 

Just my 2cents.

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

I played my boy with my fledgling Grey Knight army. He played my 1750 wolves list and I've found that terminators (including paladins) just weren't that impressive. The same things I use to bust tanks works just as well vs them. Rune priests are an absolute nightmare for Grey Knights. Without access to those cool psychic powers they can struggle. The halbards are nasty, but if you deny them the charge and hammerhand (or might of titan) they tend to struggle with wounds.

 

He melta'd me instantly killing paladins, His pack leader with fist scored three more instant kills in two rounds of combat, the wolf lord and twc retinue was nasty, they ended up killing my NDK, draigo and pally squad, and finished off my other pally squad.

 

I played a 2k game against his nids and a 10 man squad of termies at it to termagaunts.....spawned from 3 tervigons...they just shot and assaulted... shot and assaulted.. and overran them. It was sort of depressing to watch tbh.

 

I don't think there is anything super exceptional to worry about. Their units are definitely no worse than bloodletters, bloodcrushers, or terminators. In fact I think BT and BA assault squad termies are far and above better. Put them against each other and if BA or BT get the charge they wound easier and have better survivability. Hell vanilla TH/SS termies should eat paladins as every failed save = instant death.

 

Just my 2cents.

Hmmm... Interesting. I agree that they can be countered and that paladins are vunerable to 'standard' assualt units (they are so expensive aren't they?), but that still relies on having a rune priest to counter them. My real mistake in the game described above was allowing my rune priest to have 8 mindstrike missiles land on his head in turn 1, effectively nullifying my psychic defence, which allowed the librarian and teminator squads to stack psychic powers on themselves all over the place. With halberds and stacking powers, he was striking at S6 and I6, re-rolling to wound (he needed 2+ and could re-roll 1s because of the Grand Masters stratergy!). This is a squad of 200 points terminators not paladins... though admittedly helped massively the presence of an IC and anothers buffery (is that a word!?). It was certainly cutting through power armour like paper and made a mess of my terminators and lone wolf in the end too (though the dice rolling was not in my favour).

 

Without all those bonuses I would have quickly dispatched the small force realtively easily once I'd brought it to ground. The mindstrike missles look like a real good first strike if you can get them on the right target.

 

Long ranged firepower would also have helped. Sigh. The plasma worked wonders but only at close range. Theres a tournament at the LGC in May - I think, with the large amount of Grey knights around, that a plasma cannon dreadnought or two might be worth the admission fee alone...

 

As Nrthstar has rightly noted, all-comers lists should be fine... Just protect your rune priests and don't rely on counter attack - there may not be many left to use it! Saga of the bear is also the way to go and I would imagaine that thunderwolves would have a tough time of it too.

[Evilmerlin]

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/04/gre...ombat-army.html

 

This article highlights what I've experienced and seen with Grey Knights so far. Enter the 24" bubble of a GK army and prepare to be shot at many many times by high strength rending weapons. Close the range with them and you typically have to contend with Purifiers who act as a bubble wrap around the GK squads with multiple psycannons.

 

Playing against GK, long range firepower is a must. You cannot afford to enter their 24" bubble with them at full strength, you will be torn apart.

[Grimtooth]

So many people threw tactics out the window against a GK force this weekend at a LGS tourney. One rifledread in the list (due to restricted FOC) just seemed to freak out everyone. Too bad I didn't play the guy.

[Evilmerlin]

The RifleDread is a threat no doubt but that is merely a distraction. Kill the psycannon squads first.

[Prot]

I find it amusing that most of what I read of here, in the Wolves forum, is how GK are usually kicking Wolves' tail.

 

In the Inquisition forum, most of what I read is how Wolves are kicking Grey Butt.

 

I wonder what the truth is?

 

I do appreciate the batrep. I haven't played against these guys yet, but I'd rather read this sort of batrep than the ridiculous amount of theory-hammering going on right now about this army.