Heroic Intervention

[Cirius]

Hello Bolter & Chainsword! I'm new to this Forum. I have been playing 40k for over 18 years now, and have played most armies. But i have not played Space Marines since 3rd so i have a question about heroic intervention.

 

I have read it over and have come to the conclusion that you can not have an IC deep strike with the unit.

 

Heres what i;m thinking....

 

A unit of Vangurard Deep strike and make a heroic intervention. But can you perform the heroic intervention then have an IC join them when it is time for that IC to move? I.E the preform the heroic intervention, an IC is within 2' so he joins the unit after the have arrived? Does this work?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

If an Independent Character joins the squad, they can't assault because the Independent Character can't assault.

[Something Wycked]

On the face of it, it sounds like it would work, except for the very last line where it states that Heroic Intervention cannot be used if there is an IC attached to the squad.

 

To clarify: Heroic Intervention is the ability to declare an assault after having arrived via Deep Strike that turn. Since the Independant Character joins the squad in the movement phase, before the assault phase, the squad cannot then declare an assault later on in that turn, as they have an Independant Character as part of the unit.

 

Edit: See this post for a thorough discussion.

[Grey Mage]

Im not as sure.

 

Heroic intervention has to be declared before any scatter dice are rolled. At this point the unit isnt even on the table. Heroic intervention then says they may not shoot or run, but can assault if he has so declared... Much like declaring a squad is going to ground, it has certain restrictions that are placed upon it (much like the no run/shoot) and cant take cover saves if they arent allowed (much like how the Vangaurd cannot assault if out of range) but the action itself is the declaration.

 

So, if an IC attaches to the squad, and HI is already used, does it nullify it? No, I think its saying that the IC cant be with them when an Heroic Intervention is declared- wich is before the squad is on the table. IE, when they are in reserves.

 

So you could attach a character after theyve deployed and assault as both parts of the unit will be allowed to by their own rules.

[Venemox]

I think the scenario he's talking about is like this:

 

I have an IC on the table (and he did not deepstrike this turn). At the start of my movement phase, I DS my VV squad, declare a Heroic Intervention (before scatter dice are rolled). The VV's land on the table. They may not shoot but may assault thyis turn. HI has already been declared, they're stuck with the results of the DS and scatter.

 

Question is: Can I move my IC into coherency with that unit and then assault with them all?

 

For: The HI has already been declared to be used, scatter accounted for, and restrictiosn applied. If the IC ccould have assaulted, why can't the VV and the IC assault?

Against: The C:BA says 'This ability cannot be used if an IC has joined the VV squad'

 

Quandry 2: If the VV cannot use the HI ability because the IC joined them after DS and scatter (even though HI is declared prior to DS), can they shoot? If the VV cannot 'use the ability', are they given the pnealty without the bonus?

 

Tactical thought: If I declare HI, then DS my VV and they scatter out of assault range, can my SP join them to negate the HI ability and allow them to shoot?

 

It does seem to me like it's all of one or all of the other. Either they can assault with an IC (if the IC could have assaulted and joined after DS) OR the IC retoractively negates the HI and they can shoot. Since both the benefit and the restriction are part of the HI ability, it boils down to: either thay can use HI or they can't. All of it, or none of it.

[Grey Mage]

Well they certainly arent allowed to shoot or run. That kicks in as soon as its declared.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I'd say, RAW wise, they can't do anything. The Intervention 'can't shoot or run' bit applies the moment they come in, so before the IC joins. Once the IC joins, they cant assault either, as per that one line.

[Something Wycked]

From the other thread. Emphasis mine:

 

You declare that you are going to use HI, but you have not yet assaulted after deepstriking, you could have scattered out of assault range or suffered a mishap. You declare HI, you deepstrike as normal, and the using the HI ability, you assault after deepstriking.

 

And has been mentioned, there is no timeline restriction set for when an IC joining a VV unit negates the ability to assault after deepstriking. I only have to point out that an IC has joined the VV unit and if HI was declared, they can no longer use the ability.

[Grey Mage]

My point is however, that the ability is already used by the time the IC has joined.

 

Just because you ran last turn doesnt mean you cant shoot this turn.

 

Its stated in the past tense. Heroic Intervent is used before they even deploy wich means the IC has to be with them before theyve even deployed.

 

Heroic Intervention isnt assaulting, or even declaring an assault- its a change in the restrictions of deep striking. By the time the movement phase is done and we check for wether the IC is joined to the squad theyve already done a heroic intervention.

[Venemox]

I'd say, RAW wise, they can't do anything. The Intervention 'can't shoot or run' bit applies the moment they come in, so before the IC joins. Once the IC joins, they cant assault either, as per that one line.

 

Hence the crux of that question. The line doesn't say they can't assault if they have an attached IC, but rather that they may not use 'the ability' (HI). HI both gives the ability to assault AND removes the abiltiy to run/shoot. Taking 'that one line' without reading the passage as a whole isn't a good precedence to set. If the 'can't shoot or run' bit applies the moment they come in, then so does the 'they can assault' bit, since they've already used HI (without an IC attached, YET).

 

I stand by my 2 earlier statements: Either A.) If an IC joins them after DS via HI, they have HIs bonuses and penalties; or B.) If an IC joins them after they DS, then they didn't HI and don't get HIs bonuses nor its penalties.

 

All or nothing. Either they HI'd, or they didn't. The rule doesn't seperate out individual sub-parts, it simply imposes a blanket statemnt that applies to the whol3 ability. Either they can, or they can't (even though they already have :confused: ).

 

Edit: accidently formatted a smiley into my text, and I can't spell.

[Something Wycked]

My point is however, that the ability is already used by the time the IC has joined.

I would argue that the ability has not been used, only declared. The primary effect of HI is to allow an assault in the turn they deep strike. This has been declared in the movement phase when they deep strike, but has not been used until they assault in the assault phase- just the same as an assault is declared but does not actually happen until the unit is found to have satisfied the requirements, such as being within the 6" assault move range.

 

Your example of running and shooting doesn't particularly apply, since this is a question of phases in the same player turn and your example is two player turns on two separate game turns.

 

Heroic Intervention is a change in the restrictions for Deep Striking, yes, but there is no time limit set on any of the ability's stipulations; if an IC joins the unit prior to the assault that is allowed by Heroic Intervention, then the restrictions of HI will still apply and negate the ability to assault.

 

This isn't a direct quote since I don't have my codex with me at work, but: "Heroic Intervention cannot be used if an Independant Character has joined the squad." It does not say that it cannot be declared, only that it cannot be used.

 

Using Heroic Intervention is to allow an assault after deep striking- you simply declare it in the movement phase.

[Grey Mage]

Ah, but the declaration is before you deepstrike. The ability is used at that time and changes your deepstrike restrictions.

 

You cannot shoot or run, but may assault.

 

After the change is described it then puts a single limitation on it- that if a character has joined the squad it cant be used. Has puts it in the past-tense, and the ability is elected for use during the begining of the movement phase as you deploy reserves and so must already have occurred before the character walks over to the squad.

 

However a character could have already been attached to them during reserves, wich would keep them from having the option of doing a HI.

 

The act of assaulting isnt the HI. HI is an ability, that among other things, grants the unit the ability to assault despite having deepstruck. However it also has effects during the shooting phase- you cant shoot, or run. Note, not- you cant assault if you ran or shot during the shooting phase- but just a simple restriction that dissallows you to do so.

 

The rule itself is quite clear- the ability is used immediately before the scatter dice are rolled for deepstrike.

[Something Wycked]

lol yes, the rule is quite clear... to quote Ramses again:

 

"I only have to point out that an IC has joined the VV unit and if HI was declared, they can no longer use the ability."

Your past-tense requirement is there; I point out as you attempt to assault that an IC "has" joined the squad. The ability permits the assault if they do not have an attached IC.

 

Thinking about it, this is a rather silly point of contention. The IC is going to be treated as its own unit in the assault anyway, so why attach it prior to the assault? :woot: Easily avoided.

[Grey Mage]

Because it makes a difference when combat ends, and your opponent can or cannot shoot at the IC. Or if theyre a Chaplain...\

 

The question is really- is past tense in the assault phase or in the deployment section of the movement phase. Im saying the latter.

[Something Wycked]

If the IC is loose on the board to join the VV's when they attempt to HI, he's getting shot at in the turn before :lol: Long argument and lots of trouble for, at best, limited use.

 

This is just too ambiguous to say for certain one way or the other, imo.

 

*Makes the sign of the Aquila and brandishes all the newer codices at GW* The power of errata compels you! The power of errata compels you!

[Grimtooth]

Declare =/= Use

 

Not shooting or not running is not using HI, those are the conditions as set by HI to allow you to HI which is assault after deepstriking.

 

What does HI allow you to do? It isn't allowing me NOT to run and NOT to shoot after deepstriking. I can NOT do those things if I deepstrike normally. HI allows you to assault after deepstriking. If a joined IC prevents you from using HI, then a joined IC prevents you from assaulting after deepstriking.

[Grey Mage]

Except it is disallowing you from shooting your running. You can do them after deepstriking normally.

[Something Wycked]

I would say that if an IC joins the squad in the movement phase, HI is nullified at that moment and they can now run/shoot, but not assault.

[Grimtooth]

Except it is disallowing you from shooting your running. You can do them after deepstriking normally.

 

Or I can also not do them after deepstriking normally. What I can't do without HI is assault after deepstriking.

 

Deepstriking normally:

 

Run

Not run

Shoot

Not shoot.

Not assault

 

HI:

Not run

Not shoot

Assault

 

Now what does HI allow you to do?

[Grimtooth]

I would say that if an IC joins the squad in the movement phase, HI is nullified at that moment and they can now run/shoot, but not assault.

 

I would say you made your bed so you have to sleep in it.

 

You Declare you are going to use HI before you roll for scatter. Why before you roll for scatter? Because if a bad scatter puts you out of assault range you can't then change your mind and say, "Nevermind, I want to run into cover here so I don't get blown to bits now that I am out of assault range." Or, "Nevermind, I a, going to fire all my vengeance rounds because I scattered outside of assault range."

 

You decided to take a course of action, part of that course of action was deciding that you would not run or shoot for the ability to assault after deepstriking. Just because you now decide to forgo assaulting after deepstriking does not relinquish you of the conditions that were set to allow you to do that in the first place.

[Something Wycked]

You decided to take a course of action, part of that course of action was deciding that you would not run or shoot for the ability to assault after deepstriking. Just because you now decide to forgo assaulting after deepstriking does not relinquish you of the conditions that were set to allow you to do that in the first place.

Point taken. I was just trying to reconcile it with Grey Mage, since I'd given up on talking to him about the rule anymore :D

[Grimtooth]

Yea, this rule doesn't have a takes backsie clause.

[Grey Mage]

Yea, this rule doesn't have a takes backsie clause.

 

Indeed- wich implies that the declaration is the action- and the past tense is therefore before the IC could be attached through normal movement.

[Cirius]

Thanks for all the replies guys! So what it realy comes down to is the wording of HI, and if your opponent thinks it works.

[Grey Mage]

Except it is disallowing you from shooting your running. You can do them after deepstriking normally.

 

Or I can also not do them after deepstriking normally. What I can't do without HI is assault after deepstriking.

 

Deepstriking normally:

 

Run

Not run

Shoot

Not shoot.

Not assault

 

HI:

Not run

Not shoot

Assault

 

Now what does HI allow you to do?

Its not just about what it allows you to do ramses, but also what it doesnt allow you to do.

 

During a normal deepstrike you have the option to shoot or run. You do not have the option if you declared a heroic intervention before you deep struck. That is an effect- not a restriction. If it was a restriction it would say you couldnt use HI if they had shot or run in the shooting phase.

 

Wich is exactly my point. The rule is already going into effect during the shooting phase. It has to have already happened. Looking over the rule the only time it seems available to happen is during the movement phase, right before you deploy them from reserves.

 

You decided to take a course of action, part of that course of action was deciding that you would not run or shoot for the ability to assault after deepstriking. Just because you now decide to forgo assaulting after deepstriking does not relinquish you of the conditions that were set to allow you to do that in the first place.

This though, is nonsense. If you say to your opponent "I guess Ill run since youll probly be out of assault range" during the movement phase, go about your business, and then dont run you can still try to assault- despite what you said, since no action was taken. Same goes for HI- if you havent actually taken an action- if the rule isnt already applied, in force, active, etc- then there is no reason you cant change your mind and shoot or run- wich would keep you from assaulting. But the rule isnt worded like that, because it does come into effect during the movement phase.

 

Thanks for all the replies guys! So what it realy comes down to is the wording of HI, and if your opponent thinks it works.

Most rules discussions do- it never hurts to talk to your opponent about things before the game.