Heroic Intervention

[shatter]

I'm with the no crowd.

 

Declaration sets it in stone and it's effects and restrictions are turn long.

[Venemox]

Thinking about it, this is a rather silly point of contention. The IC is going to be treated as its own unit in the assault anyway, so why attach it prior to the assault? :P Easily avoided.

 

I agree, why join them intentionally. BUT, there's always the chance that you HI and scatter within 2 inches of the lone survivor of another squad (who happens to be an IC that already moved). Now they MUST join at the end of the Movement phase. I think that thread has already been linked once. A very rare chance, I agree, but we all know people who can't make DS rolls to save thier lives.

 

Chaplains were already mentioned as desirable to join with prior to CC.

[Venemox]

I'm with the no crowd.

 

Declaration sets it in stone and it's effects and restrictions are turn long.

 

I believe you've contradicted yourself here. If the efects and restrictions are set are turn long, declaration set in stone,, than no matter what happens after I declare HI and roll those scatter dice, the unit can:

 

1) Neither run nor shoot.

2) Assault.

 

You know, since HI has already been used, any subsequent actions are irrelevent to it's results.

[Grey Mage]

......and the restrictions if it can be used are before it.

[greatcrusade08]

if i may add, since the IC is treated as a seperate unit in CC anyway why not just charge seperate of the unit?

i know if you win combat he can be targetted seperately, but it would avoid this argument!

 

also a question that may have bearing.. if as above an IC and squad charge a unit seperately and the combat last for further turns, in your next movement pahse, despite not being able to move the IC would be within 2" of the unit, would that mean he joins them despite not being able to move?

[CaptinLoken]

IN game terms it shouldn't be allowed. It due to balance, if you scatter a HI unit away more than 6 inches from its intended target or any target possible ... you shouldn't be able to stick your captain 2 inches between the unit and HI unit to gap the distance and make it into HTH. It just to add to the Deep-strike risk of the unit. As much as it makes sense to say if he on the board why can't he join it... It is just so the rule isn't abused in the way of bridging the gap when a unit usually couldn't make it. As well when I Hq Deep stricks near a HI unit ... I would actually suggest doing the reverse ... drop Hq then your HI units ... both is it better in pattern as well you can stick your HI unit away from him. ...

[Grey Mage]

An interesting theory.... do you have anything to back it up?

[shatter]

I'm with the no crowd.

 

Declaration sets it in stone and it's effects and restrictions are turn long.

 

I believe you've contradicted yourself here. If the efects and restrictions* are set are turn long, declaration set in stone,, than no matter what happens after I declare HI and roll those scatter dice, the unit can:

 

1) Neither run nor shoot.

2) Assault.

 

You know, since HI has already been used, any subsequent actions are irrelevent to it's results.

 

There are other rules in the BRB and codex that come into play. But why should I have to mention this? Is it not obvious?

 

In short... IC within 2"? (movement phase rules for IC attachment)

Yes.

 

Bugger.

*HI units can't assault with IC attached.

 

(But declaration order is ahead of DS placement and therefore attachement! HI is already in affect!)

What are you saying? You can assault now with an IC attached despite it's forbiddance within the HI rule which enables assault when normally you can't?

Dude, dance all around it as you like, but if you fail the no IC rule, you fail at HI. You may have declared it, but it's not what you actually ended up achieving... as an IC is attached.

Can one assault at 7" for example? But I declared it! ~please...

No. There are loads of rules that limit HI. Some are even within the HI rule itself.

 

Do I like it?

No. But on balance, it seems sensible to me.

 

Do you really think GW intended for people to use below to alphas strike so hard, few armies have a chance to cope with turn 2? Would require a mishap list. That's getting far too paper-rock-scissors-spock for me.

 

Dante (for convenient IC placement to circumvent the HI rule's limitations and bridge the gap between enemy units and VV)

Libby Epistolary SS Urage/Sword

priests

+

10 VV

 

?

 

One trick pony? Hell ya... but it's not really a pony, is it... more of a one trick mammoth on meth with rocket thrusters and he really don't like what you said about his mother's trunk lookin' fat.

[Grey Mage]

What Im saying is that you cant retroactively invalidate an action. That once youve done a heroic intervention- wich is a change of the deep strike rules, not an assault move- its already done.

 

Its like going to ground after a unit has shot- you can do it, and the shooting doesnt go away despite the fact that a unit cant shoot when its gone to ground.

[Venemox]

Bugger.

*HI units can't assault with IC attached.

 

Nice misquote of the rule there, let's at least say what the book says instead of what we *think* the book says (I am in no way implying that you are intentionally misrepresenting the Codex, nor not knowledgable, merely mistaken in that quote):

 

'This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined the Veteran Vanguard Squad.'

 

What ability? Heroic Intervention. When is it used? Prior to rolling the scatter dice for deep strike. How long do it's effects last? Through the Shooting and Assault Phases. What are it's effects? The VVS may niether move nor shoot, but may assault (provided it's close enough).

 

My stance is simple. Once you've declared HI and rolled the scatter dice, it's effects are in play. The restriction against using HI is no longer in effect, it's already been used. Anything from here to the end of its effects have no bearing on being able to use HI, that determination has already been made when you declared and rolled the scatterd dice. To put it in simple, temporal logic terms: The future has no effect on the past.

[SeattleDV8]

Except of course a unit with Heroic Intervention can assault after deep strike if they don't have an IC joined to the unit.

When does an IC join a unit ? before depolyment or at the end of the movement phase.

Therefore if an IC has joined a Unit it happens at the end of the movement phase.

When the assault phase rolls around the Heroic Intervention unit cannot assault because they have an IC joined to the unit.

[Grey Mage]

Except thats not how it works- you check if the action can happen, when it happens. Not 2 phases later.

[dswanick]

Except thats not how it works- you check if the action can happen, when it happens. Not 2 phases later.

But that's exactly what you have to do.

-A VV unit deploys by Deep Strike.

-It has to roll 2d6 for scatter.

-Oh, wait, I have declared the use of HI. I only roll 1d6 for scatter.

-Do I have an IC attached? If yes, I may not use HI to scatter 1d6. If no, I may.

Later

-A VV unit wants to assault after deploying by Deep Stike.

-A unit deployed by Deep Strike may not assault.

-Oh, wait, I have declared the use of HI. I can assault after deploying by Deep Strike.

-Do I have an IC attached? If yes, I may not use HI to assault. If no, I may.

[greatcrusade08]

im late to this discussion but i have to ask:

 

-A VV unit wants to assault after deploying by Deep Stike.

-A unit deployed by Deep Strike may not assault.

-Oh, wait, I have declared the use of HI. I can assault after deploying by Deep Strike.

-Do I have an IC attached? If yes, I may not use HI to assault. If no, I may.

 

where does it state this?

the HI happens before the IC joins them.. the IC hasnt deepstriked so surely this doesnt prevent an assault?

[dswanick]

im late to this discussion but i have to ask:

 

-A VV unit wants to assault after deploying by Deep Stike.

-A unit deployed by Deep Strike may not assault.

-Oh, wait, I have declared the use of HI. I can assault after deploying by Deep Strike.

-Do I have an IC attached? If yes, I may not use HI to assault. If no, I may.

 

where does it state this?

the HI happens before the IC joins them.. the IC hasnt deepstriked so surely this doesnt prevent an assault?

No it doesn't. The Heroic Intervention is declared before you roll for Deep Strike scatter. The Heroic Intervention "used" when you roll 1d6 instead of 2d6, and again when you may not run or shoot, and it is also "used" when you are allowed to assault despite having deployed by Deep Strike. For HI to be "used" you may not have an IC attached. With the IC attached to it during the movement phase the VV squad looses the ability to assault after Deep Striking because it may not be used if an IC has joined the unit. You now have a unit of VV who have deployed by Deep Strike, who may not assault because they may not use HI because an IC who did not Deep Strike and who can asault has joined. (That sentence hurt my brain :) ).

[JamesI]

HI has no effect on how many dice you roll for deep strike scatter. None at all.

[greatcrusade08]

where does it state this?

the HI happens before the IC joins them.. the IC hasnt deepstriked so surely this doesnt prevent an assault?

No it doesn't. The Heroic Intervention is declared before you roll for Deep Strike scatter. The Heroic Intervention "used" when you roll 1d6 instead of 2d6, and again when you may not run or shoot, and it is also "used" when you are allowed to assault despite having deployed by Deep Strike. For HI to be "used" you may not have an IC attached. With the IC attached to it during the movement phase the VV squad looses the ability to assault after Deep Striking because it may not be used if an IC has joined the unit. You now have a unit of VV who have deployed by Deep Strike, who may not assault because they may not use HI because an IC who did not Deep Strike and who can asault has joined. (That sentence hurt my brain :cuss ).

 

ah i see your point.

HI is declared in move phase but 'used' in the assault phase, but the HI is lost when an Ic joins them..

its not that the IC cant assault, its that the VV cant use HI with an attached IC so therefore cant assault.

 

i think the detractors are saying that since the HI has already been declared before the Ic joins them then it carries through.. its not an unreasonable argument

 

my 0.02 each unit CAN individually assault so using RAP (rules as practical) i see no reason not to let someone join them together, ICs are seperate units for assault anyway.

[JamesI]

where does it state this?

the HI happens before the IC joins them.. the IC hasnt deepstriked so surely this doesnt prevent an assault?

No it doesn't. The Heroic Intervention is declared before you roll for Deep Strike scatter. The Heroic Intervention "used" when you roll 1d6 instead of 2d6, and again when you may not run or shoot, and it is also "used" when you are allowed to assault despite having deployed by Deep Strike. For HI to be "used" you may not have an IC attached. With the IC attached to it during the movement phase the VV squad looses the ability to assault after Deep Striking because it may not be used if an IC has joined the unit. You now have a unit of VV who have deployed by Deep Strike, who may not assault because they may not use HI because an IC who did not Deep Strike and who can asault has joined. (That sentence hurt my brain :cuss ).

 

ah i see your point.

HI is declared in move phase but 'used' in the assault phase, but the HI is lost when an Ic joins them..

its not that the IC cant assault, its that the VV cant use HI with an attached IC so therefore cant assault.

 

i think the detractors are saying that since the HI has already been declared before the Ic joins them then it carries through.. its not an unreasonable argument

 

my 0.02 each unit CAN individually assault so using RAP (rules as practical) i see no reason not to let someone join them together, ICs are seperate units for assault anyway.

The one issue with this is getting a chaplain attached to the Vanguard (or a BA librarian with Unleash RAge) would give the squad rerolls to hit making them that much better.

 

I'm not sure who is right on this rule issue. My local group looked at my Vanguard and my chaplains and declared it illegal long ago.

[greatcrusade08]

your right i hadnt considered that

[Cornishman]

In my mind there are only two possible outcomes to this:

1) After being declared, and ‘used’ during deployment the HI rule is also 'used' during the shooting and assault phase. In this case as the rule is ‘used’ across multiple phases then each time the rule is used, the requirements are checked. So if an IC attaches to the unit after the VV squad has DS then the VV+IC unit can run and shoot normally during the shooting phase (HI can not be ‘used’ in the shooting phase due to there being an attached IC), similarly during the assault phase the unit comprising of the VV+IC may not assault.

2) If the game rules work by allowing a given rule (i.e. HI) to be used when it is declared, and then have set effects for a defined period (e.g. a phase, a player turn).... Then VV unit may:

i. Declare and use HI as the unit deployed (prior to roll for scatter etc...)

ii. Having used HI during deployment HI then has set effects which alter how the VV may be used in subsequent phases (i.e. no shooting or running during Shooting Phase, but may assault in Assault Phase)

 

In which case the Unit comprising of the VV (which DS and used HI) which then, after completing deployment has an IC attached it, may not shoot or fire in the shooting phase (though the IC may possibly still fire since the IC is not restricted by the HI effect), but critically may assault in the Assault Phase as both the VV and IC are allowed to do so.

 

 

Out of these two I would go with the later. Many rules (e.g. Movement, Psychic powers etc…) are used in one part of a turn, but have effects which last throughout the rest of the turn (player and/ or game), so it is entirely possible for the rules to be used at deployment (where upon validity is checked, the given effects are then set), and for the effects to only be applied later.

[Grey Mage]

See, and the way Im looking at it:

 

Your about to deploy- you declare heroic intervention. Is there an IC attached? No- HI goes off. This is where heroic intervention actually occurs.

 

Shooting phase- you go to shoot. HI prevents this.

 

Assault phase- you go to assault. You may assault if in range, didnt shoot another target, etc.

 

Its a change to the deep strike rules. Its not an assault move. The rule itself isnt happening in the assault phase, its just affecting the assault phase. Much like how a restriction on shooting can affect the assault phase, but doesnt happen then either.

[Grimtooth]

What does HI allow you to do?

 

Assault after deepstriking.

 

Declare =/= Use

 

Examine the chain of events,

 

You declare that you will use HI before rolling for scatter. Have you assaulted after deepstriking? No.

 

You roll for scatter and place your models per the deepstrike rules. Have you assaulted after deepstrkiking? No.

 

You are not alllowed to run or shoot, so you don't. Have you assaulted after deepstriking? No.

 

You assault. Have you assaulted after deepstriking? Yes.

 

Now when you DECLARED that you were going to HI, you clearly have not used HI. When you have assaulted after deepstriking, you have USED HI.

 

Summary?

 

You DECLARE HI before rolling to scatter.

 

You USE HI when you assault after deepstriking.

[SevenExxes]

I have a question in regard to Heroic Intervention but not involving Independent Characters.

I didn't want to start a new thread so I did a search and saw this one. (search-fu win)

 

Ok anyway, my question is about the Stormraven's Skies of Blood rule and Heroic Intervention.

 

Skies of Blood allows models with jump packs traveling on the Stormraven to disembark via Deep Strike rules when the Stormraven has traveled flat out.

 

Does this allow Blood Angels Vanguard Veterans multiple Heroic Interventions throughout the game?

[Grey Mage]

What does HI allow you to do?

 

Assault after deepstriking.

 

Declare =/= Use

 

Examine the chain of events,

 

You declare that you will use HI before rolling for scatter. Have you assaulted after deepstriking? No.

 

You roll for scatter and place your models per the deepstrike rules. Have you assaulted after deepstrkiking? No.

 

You are not alllowed to run or shoot, so you don't. Have you assaulted after deepstriking? No.

 

You assault. Have you assaulted after deepstriking? Yes.

 

Now when you DECLARED that you were going to HI, you clearly have not used HI. When you have assaulted after deepstriking, you have USED HI.

 

Summary?

 

You DECLARE HI before rolling to scatter.

 

You USE HI when you assault after deepstriking.

You declare HI before you deepstrike. Its an altered set of deepstrike rules just like OBEL is an altered set of outflank rules.

 

If all it was was was an assault move then the inability to act in the shooting phase would be similar restrictions to the no-IC, instead of effects.

 

I have a question in regard to Heroic Intervention but not involving Independent Characters.

I didn't want to start a new thread so I did a search and saw this one. (search-fu win)

 

Ok anyway, my question is about the Stormraven's Skies of Blood rule and Heroic Intervention.

 

Skies of Blood allows models with jump packs traveling on the Stormraven to disembark via Deep Strike rules when the Stormraven has traveled flat out.

 

Does this allow Blood Angels Vanguard Veterans multiple Heroic Interventions throughout the game?

No, using the deepstrike rules isnt the same as deepstriking from reserves.

[Venemox]

Except of course a unit with Heroic Intervention can assault after deep strike if they don't have an IC joined to the unit.

When does an IC join a unit ? before depolyment or at the end of the movement phase.

Therefore if an IC has joined a Unit it happens at the end of the movement phase.

When the assault phase rolls around the Heroic Intervention unit cannot assault because they have an IC joined to the unit.

 

Let me get this right. You are saying that an IC may join (before deployment) and (end of the movement phase) and that must mean that an IC joined at the (end of the movement phase) if it happened? Or did I minsinterpret 'therefore' again? Because I thought it meant 'in consequence of that; as a result'.

 

Anyways, that not withstanding, the answer to the question 'When does an IC join a unit?' is threefold:

1) By being doplyed in coherency with that unit

2) By being in coherency with a unit at the end of your movement phase (or in the same transport)

3) During deployment, you must clearly delineate which IC's in reserve are being attached to which unit. They come in from reserve together.

 

What we are really hashing out is the question 'When does HI check to see if it's not usable because an IC has joined the unit?', and there seem to be 2 schools of thought:

1) When HI is declared and before scatter dice are rolled.

2) Time (1) AND at every moment in time between deepstriking via HI and the end of your assault phase.

 

Things we know to be true:

1) Method (1) above of joining an IC and a unit does not matter, HI will not be used as the unit is not in reserve.

2) Method (3) above of joining an IC and a unit does matter, and HI cannot be used. The IC is attached before deployment from reserves.