Heroic Intervention

[SevenExxes]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Grey Mage.

[timmytool]

l think it comes down to 2 things

 

how do abilities work in the game

ability = always in play effect while abilities host is in play (AOE abilities etc)

triggered ability - once the ability is triggered conditions are checked and if valid: effect is produced till it ends as part of the abilities wording (which l think HI is)

activated ability - declare ability use: effect (that remains in play)

activated ability - declare ability use: ability remains active till the effects end or the game/model ends/dies

- their are no clear modes for abilities in W40K and my list here is not exhaustive -

 

how does the ability enforce its ability and its restrictions

when declaring conditions are checked and then the effects(pro and con) are issued (which I think HI is)

ability is declared and conditions(con) are checked when the effects(pro) are used

 

how does the ability read...(to me)

 

Heroic Intervention(ability name):

fluff

If a jump pack equipped Vanguard Veteran squad arrives from deep strike {has successfully rolled for reserves and has had the units DS location chosen}, the player can elect for the squad to perform "this ability"[aka a Heroic intervention] - before the deep strike scatter dice are rolled. {abilities trigger}

If "the units controller"[he] "chooses to use this ability"[declares a Heroic Intervention], the Vanguard Veteran squad cannot shoot (or run) that turn but can assault (provided they are close enough). {abilities effect with rule reminders in ()'s}

This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined{when the ability is triggered/used the IC can only have joined to the squad IF it was put into reserves attached/joined together BRB p94 - Reserves} the Vanguard Veteran squad {additional triggering restriction}

 

 

A clearer way of wording it(but not necessarily the best way)

 

Heroic Intervention(ability name):

fluff

This ability is used before the deep strike scatter dice for any Vanguard Veteran squad is rolled and after placing one squad model on the table.

To use this ability the squad must be equipped with jump packs and has not been joined by a Independent Character when being placed in reserves.

If the unit controller chooses to use this ability, the Vanguard Veteran squad cannot shoot (or run) that turn but can assault (provided they are close enough). {abilities effect with rule reminders in ()'s and has no gender bias (we want to encourage female gamers)}

This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined{when the ability is triggered/used the IC can only have joined to the squad IF it was put into reserves attached/joined together BRB p94 - Reserves} the Vanguard Veteran squad {additional triggering restriction}

[Grimtooth]

What does HI allow you to do?

 

Assault after deepstriking.

 

Declare =/= Use

 

Examine the chain of events,

 

You declare that you will use HI before rolling for scatter. Have you assaulted after deepstriking? No.

 

You roll for scatter and place your models per the deepstrike rules. Have you assaulted after deepstrkiking? No.

 

You are not alllowed to run or shoot, so you don't. Have you assaulted after deepstriking? No.

 

You assault. Have you assaulted after deepstriking? Yes.

 

Now when you DECLARED that you were going to HI, you clearly have not used HI. When you have assaulted after deepstriking, you have USED HI.

 

Summary?

 

You DECLARE HI before rolling to scatter.

 

You USE HI when you assault after deepstriking.

You declare HI before you deepstrike. Its an altered set of deepstrike rules just like OBEL is an altered set of outflank rules.

 

If all it was was was an assault move then the inability to act in the shooting phase would be similar restrictions to the no-IC, instead of effects.

 

That still does not make Declare = Use.

 

HI grants you the ability to assault after deep striking. You cannot use HI if joined by an IC. I know that you want to say that when you roll for scatter before deep striking and that when you do not shoot or run, you are using an altered set of deep strike rules, however even that argument is flawed as the last part of your altered set of rules takes place during the assault phase, not the movement phase.

 

So even if we did accept that you are using HI when you,

 

1. Declare that you will HI before you scatter

 

and

 

2. Do not run or shoot

 

are both in the movement phase while,

 

3. Assault after deep striking

 

is in the assault phase.

 

So unless you are trying to propose that HI is used ONLY in the movement phase, then good luck trying to assault, ONLY in the movement phase.

[Grey Mage]

There are a number of rules that are inacted at one point and continue to affect things later. You still use them at the begining of their effect, not the end. Example- Wolf Totems.

[shatter]

I think he's stating that like run/shoot in the shoot phase is disallowed, so too is the no IC rule despite the phase. Further, HI doesn't stop you attaching an IC, it just stops it working.

 

... or does it?

 

One can argue that an HI unit, despite having an IC within 2" cannot have him attached because the declaration forbade it. There is precedence in the BRB for ICs being moved enough aside if they can't be attached... to make it clear.

 

I think this in fact might be the best solution. No matter what lands near them, they're unattachable as a unit until after HI turn. Fluffy and sensible.

[Something Wycked]

HI does not prevent an IC from joining a unit, and the IC rules state that if an IC ends his movement phase within 2" of a unit that he can join, he must join that unit.

[Grimtooth]

There are a number of rules that are inacted at one point and continue to affect things later. You still use them at the begining of their effect, not the end. Example- Wolf Totems.

 

Not related at all as the wolf standard is explicit in when it is in effect and also has no situation that will negate it once it has been used. By yiur standard HI is used in the movement phase and has a delayed reaction till the assault phase, and is yet only bound by the IC rule during the movement phase.

 

You can't argue both aspects and just discount the IC rule with HI. Either HI allows you to deep strike after assault, and that is defined as using it so a joined IC prevents it or HI is in use during both the movement phase AND assault phase, which the joined IC prevents.

 

Unless you plan on convincing someone that you are using HI just in the movement phase and that whole assaulting after deep striking in the assault phase has absolutely nothing to do with HI at all.

[Grey Mage]

It is related- you said declare =/= use, and Im showing that in some cases it does.

 

The rule is used to change the deepstrike rules. The 'declaration' is simply informing your opponent that you are using the alternate rules set for deepstrike- known as heroic intervention- before you deploy the unit. This is when the rule is actually used.

 

However, you cannot use HI if an IC is in the unit. Because you have to use it immediately before you deploy the unit from reserves, the IC restriction is only check once- right before you roll the scatter dice.

 

Then, because your units deepstrike rules were changed when you go to declare shooting, or running, you find you cannot. When you later go to assault, you find (assuming all else is well) that you can. In neither case does having an IC allow you to shoot/run, or restrict you from assaulting.

 

This is similar to how OBEL just changes the outflank rules, your still outflanking- its just been modified.