Psycannons on PA

[cptphoenixck]

Is anyone else leaning towards equipping GKSS with incinerators rather than psycannons?

The reason being that psycannons lose two shots if they want to move and part of the GK's biggest advantage, to my mind anyhow, is that they remain so effective even when they're moving.

Thoughts?

[Niiai]

LOL?

 

You do lose more shots by not being in range with the template.

 

Besides, when was the last time you saw S6 template take out tanks 24" away?

[Ashe Darke]

I've been taking a Purifier unit with 4 cannons in my 1750 list. They sit in a bolstered building with my GM and my assassin. They have been kicking ass! They've been controlling the mid-field while the dreads and to some extent the assassin cover the long range stuff. 16 psycannons shots, 12 BS4 storm bolters and 2 BS2 storm bolters have been causing a lot of pain and they ain't too shabby in combat if I need them to be.

[Grand Master Caloth]

I've been taking a Purifier unit with 4 cannons in my 1750 list. They sit in a bolstered building with my GM and my assassin. They have been kicking ass! They've been controlling the mid-field while the dreads and to some extent the assassin cover the long range stuff. 16 psycannons shots, 12 BS4 storm bolters and 2 BS2 storm bolters have been causing a lot of pain and they ain't too shabby in combat if I need them to be.

 

 

BS2 storm bolters??? eh???? me thinks a typo. But i LOVE psycannons, COMPLETELY wortht he 20 pts (i prefer and still use the metals for them tho. lol). Even with only 2 shots each (when moving), S7 AP4 Rending is NOT to be scoffed it.

[cptphoenixck]

I've been taking a Purifier unit with 4 cannons in my 1750 list. They sit in a bolstered building with my GM and my assassin. They have been kicking ass! They've been controlling the mid-field while the dreads and to some extent the assassin cover the long range stuff. 16 psycannons shots, 12 BS4 storm bolters and 2 BS2 storm bolters have been causing a lot of pain and they ain't too shabby in combat if I need them to be.

 

I've no problem with them on Purifier's makes sense as they can still move if they have to but wont be all that fluid, I meant more in GKSS?

 

GKS are a midrange army so template weapons aren't as bad as they're made out to be..... so far as tank busting go you have to rely on rending for the higher ap's and losing two shots reduces the mathhammer odds of a pen. dramatically.

[TyrionTheImp]

Strike Squads suck at assault, using a template weapon puts them into range of being assaulted. Therefore, Incinerators = Bad Idea.

 

Psycannons are take all comers choices, they match Storm Bolter Range, can add on some wounds to infantry, and give a pretty decent chance at killing tanks. Incincerators just require them to be too close range and leaves them far too vulnerable to assault, why even tempt getting that close?

 

I use flamers in my Space Marine armies, but Tacticals aren't 20 points a piece, and most of the time I'm sitting in my rhino doing it, or following with a rapid fire spam or something to make sure I don't get assaulted. Grey Knights don't need to take those risks as they have Storm Bolters and access to weapons of the same range band. Sure, moving removes 2 shots, but it's only 10 points. That's the same as a plasma gun in SM codices (I know it's a terrible idea comparing them but whatever), but plasmas aren't assault, aren't rending, and get hot, plus you don't get a 24" range even when moving.

 

The Heavy 4 option is mostly there for Purgations who probably won't need to/shouldn't be moving, and Terminators to get a worthwhile advantage for wielding Psycannons. There's a reason Psycannons are more expensive for terminators.

[Ashe Darke]

I've been taking a Purifier unit with 4 cannons in my 1750 list. They sit in a bolstered building with my GM and my assassin. They have been kicking ass! They've been controlling the mid-field while the dreads and to some extent the assassin cover the long range stuff. 16 psycannons shots, 12 BS4 storm bolters and 2 BS2 storm bolters have been causing a lot of pain and they ain't too shabby in combat if I need them to be.

 

 

BS2 storm bolters??? eh???? me thinks a typo. But i LOVE psycannons, COMPLETELY wortht he 20 pts (i prefer and still use the metals for them tho. lol). Even with only 2 shots each (when moving), S7 AP4 Rending is NOT to be scoffed it.

Yeah I meant BS6 from my GM. Whoops!

 

I know what the OP means though, 4 shots on the move from 2 guys is a bit meh as most the time I'm only interested in the rends. And against squads the rends probably won't come so on the move most the time it's basically storm bolters that find it easier to wound, and you give up a force weapon for this. This is why I went for loads in a stationary unit, 16 shots are more likely to get those juicy rends ;)

[Angelis Mortis]

I've been taking a Purifier unit with 4 cannons in my 1750 list. They sit in a bolstered building with my GM and my assassin. They have been kicking ass! They've been controlling the mid-field while the dreads and to some extent the assassin cover the long range stuff. 16 psycannons shots, 12 BS4 storm bolters and 2 BS2 storm bolters have been causing a lot of pain and they ain't too shabby in combat if I need them to be.

 

 

BS2 storm bolters??? eh???? me thinks a typo. But i LOVE psycannons, COMPLETELY wortht he 20 pts (i prefer and still use the metals for them tho. lol). Even with only 2 shots each (when moving), S7 AP4 Rending is NOT to be scoffed it.

 

And the Purifiers "and they ain't too shabby in combat" thing too. I'm baffled at that, because Purifiers are retarded awesome in CC. Cleansing Flame and 2 Attacks base. Yes please!

[Angelis Mortis]

Personally, I think Psycannons are awesome period. Act like an uber assault cannon stationary or a rending autocannon if you move. Yeah, they are just awesome period. Incinerators are not to be overlooked, but that in no means the Psycannons suck.

[Gentlemanloser]

Pyscannons Rend no matter which firing mode they are used in.

[cptphoenixck]

Pyscannons Rend no matter which firing mode they are used in.

I know, but they have less chance to rend using only 2 dice.

[Ashe Darke]

I've been taking a Purifier unit with 4 cannons in my 1750 list. They sit in a bolstered building with my GM and my assassin. They have been kicking ass! They've been controlling the mid-field while the dreads and to some extent the assassin cover the long range stuff. 16 psycannons shots, 12 BS4 storm bolters and 2 BS2 storm bolters have been causing a lot of pain and they ain't too shabby in combat if I need them to be.

 

 

BS2 storm bolters??? eh???? me thinks a typo. But i LOVE psycannons, COMPLETELY wortht he 20 pts (i prefer and still use the metals for them tho. lol). Even with only 2 shots each (when moving), S7 AP4 Rending is NOT to be scoffed it.

 

And the Purifiers "and they ain't too shabby in combat" thing too. I'm baffled at that, because Purifiers are retarded awesome in CC. Cleansing Flame and 2 Attacks base. Yes please!

Well people ask me 'why not just take a Purgation squad??' WELL, I tell them, they're better in combat than Purgation squads, sure I have to take more but I'm not complaining. With only 6 guys with force weapons their combat capabilities are diminished but even with that taken into account they still have a lot of attacks. That's what I mean by "and they ain't too shabby in combat". For a shooty unit they're still better in combat and more flexible than a Purgation squad.

 

Also they don't take up one my precious heavy slots.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

The Purifiers don't need to be fielded at full size to get two psycannon, which makes them more useful in smaller squads than strike squads in my opinion. To be honest, if I was fielding a full sized squad to sit in an objective (unless I was running maximum Psyflemen dreadnoughts) I'd just take a Purgation squad.

[Abaddonshand]

Incinerators have a place in the list alright, on interceptors and dreadknights! :jaw: th shunt move no scatter means you can line up amazingly accurate template shots against enemy back line units. St 6 ap4 murders tau pathfinders, firewarriors, eldar rangers, guardians, most aspects, IG everything, DE everything except incubi, tyranid anything medium or small. You could probably get 8 models touched by the template each time you fire thanks to mobility.

 

I don't know about the rest of you, but several eldar players in my area use multiple units of Aliatoc rangers, who my deathwing despise! The ability to cook them all turn 1, ignoring their 2+ cover saves is fantastic!

 

Outside of the above context, incinerators don't work that well, and come at a ridiculous price compared to psycannons on GKSS (I know the costs are the same with interceptors, but for them it's worth it as a mobility surcharge). The only other unit I would consider taking incinerators on are paladins, and thats because they do nasty things deepstriking with Draigo and a librarian with warp rift

[BrotherWasted]

Incinerators are for assault-focused Purifier Squads only. Purgation Squads are garbage for their points worth and occupy important Heavy Support slots.

[Ashe Darke]

Purgation Squads are garbage for their points worth and occupy important Heavy Support slots.

Exactly, for my Heavies I'd rather have dreads and then use an Elite slot to make the awesome Purifier unit. Astral Aim is a nice idea but it doesn't make me go 'I MUST HAVE THAT!'

[BrotherWasted]

Purgation Squads would need to have Relentless and/or be the same cost as Strike Squads to make me consider them. Their upgrades shouldn't be any more expensive than a Purifier Squad either.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

A 5 man Purgation squad plus 4 psycannons is 180 points. Standing still they put out 16 strength 7, AP4 rending shots a turn. To get similar firepower a Purifier unit has to be 10 man strong, and then add four psycannons for a total of 280 points minimum. That's a saving of 100 points, which even in a Grey Knights army is worth something. Now if you were to buy a full sized squad the Purifiers would be better value, but no one is going to do that.

 

A better argument is that it takes up a heavy slot, which in a Grey Knight army is better used to buy a Psyfleman dreadnought at 135 points. But horses for courses. If range isn't a problem, then the 16 rending shots a turn may be more useful than the 4 twin-linked strength 8 shots.

 

You could, I suppose, take the Purifiers squad, combat squad, and then upgrade the remaining half with halberds and hammers and throw them into assault. That would be better than the Purgation squad. If you're running Crowe, then you have some pretty potent troops options too.

[Angelis Mortis]

Purgation Squads would need to have Relentless and/or be the same cost as Strike Squads to make me consider them. Their upgrades shouldn't be any more expensive than a Purifier Squad either.

 

Why not? They get Astral Aim and Purifiers do not.

[Angelis Mortis]

Purgation Squads are garbage for their points worth and occupy important Heavy Support slots.

Exactly, for my Heavies I'd rather have dreads and then use an Elite slot to make the awesome Purifier unit. Astral Aim is a nice idea but it doesn't make me go 'I MUST HAVE THAT!'

 

And give up a unit that can carry more weapons, shoot without LoS, and take 5 wounds to kill (minimum) to take a single model that can be killed with one decent hit? Don't get me wrong, Dreads have their place, but you can't really compare them to Purgation squads. Purgations squads are very nice if used properly. Especially with Psycannons as unlike normal Dev squads, they can still move and retain some serious firepower. Not to mention NFW make them nasty in melee too. Purgations are an awesome unit. I take Purgations as often as possible and they never let me down.

[minigun762]

Incinerators have a place in the list alright, on interceptors and dreadknights! <_<

 

Why wouldn't Incinerators be useful on basic GKT squads? Its super cheap and GKT are superior to GKSS in assault.

 

As for the Psycannon GKSS squads, how effective has it been to pair them up with a Psybolt Razorback with TL Heavy Bolter? Squad comes out to 160 points for 5 guys, 180 for a full 6 and you have decent midrange firepower as well as added mobility and protection.

[Angelis Mortis]

Pyscannons Rend no matter which firing mode they are used in.

 

Who said they didn't?

[TyrionTheImp]

You lose your NFW for each Psycannon you take though, so a 5 man purgation squad with 4 psycannons only gets 2 NFW attacks base.

 

Purifiers aren't as great as people make them out to be though, in my opinion, even as troops. They're an either or situation, not a both. If you want a devoted assault unit, give them all halberds and maybe a hammer or two, but don't bother with psycannons, those take away NFW attacks. If you want them to be shooty just give them Psycannons and maybe Psybolt ammo, and skimp on the melee upgrades.

 

Sure, you CAN make a squad to do everything, but is that really points efficient? If you're in close combat those psycannons are being wasted, if you're shooting, your halberds are being wasted.

 

Now, you can split into combat squads, a close combat squad and a shooting squad, but that's difficult to pull off right. If you bring a transport, one squad is foot slogging, potentially you could jack from another squad that may not need it, but how many times is that true?

 

I feel Purifiers could be improved drastically if they could Deep Strike and combat squad into their respective squads, and use the run move to make a barrier of sorts in front of the ranged squad using the melee squad (barring crazy scatters, but with Servo skulls and what not in the codex it's possible to avoid that).

 

Purgations on the other hand, no other squad can bring 4 psycannons per 5 men. Backed up with an Inquisitor in Terminator armor with a psycannon you get a minimum 12 S7 AP 4 Rending shots per turn. Increased to 20 when not moving, and no LoS required and a maximum of a 4+ cover save, a squad that can put out that firepower with no chance of retaliatory fire from what it's shooting at is impressive to me.

[Abaddonshand]

Incinerators have a place in the list alright, on interceptors and dreadknights! <_<

 

Why wouldn't Incinerators be useful on basic GKT squads? Its super cheap and GKT are superior to GKSS in assault.

 

As for the Psycannon GKSS squads, how effective has it been to pair them up with a Psybolt Razorback with TL Heavy Bolter? Squad comes out to 160 points for 5 guys, 180 for a full 6 and you have decent midrange firepower as well as added mobility and protection.

 

They're certainly not bad on GKTs, and are cheap enough to justify taking them without the guaranteed use of them every turn, but having psycannons firing in heavy mode is so much more appealing. At this stage you're really talking personal preferences.

 

My reasoning is as follows:

 

1. On GKSS psycannons are cheap, will always fire and if the squad stops for a turn for whatever reason, they have he heavy mode, making them bette than incinerators, which are more expensive, and useless more than 8" from the target.

 

2. On GKIS incinerators are better, as despite the higher cost, the unit will always be moving (non-scoring and paid a premium for mobility, so why would they sit still, that's what GKSS are for if necessary) so will never benefit from heavy psycannon fire mode, and jump packs + shunt mean it's easy to line up optimum templates early and often.

 

3. On GKTS Incinerators are cheap, but again due to slow movement they won't be fired too often. Psycannons are more expensive, but always fire in heavy mode, therefore they are better as theyll be firing full strength almost every turn.

 

I see psycannons as the go to guy for GK infantry support weapons, with incinerators only featuring in specific circumstances your list/ strategy plans for. Essentially, psycannons are more ubiquitous.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Why wouldn't Incinerators be useful on basic GKT squads? Its super cheap and GKT are superior to GKSS in assault.

 

Useful sure, just not as useful as the psycannon on the relentless termies. 4 S7 rending shots each at all times is pretty dang good.