Psycannons on PA

[Marmande]

Don't Purgation squads get their melee weapon upgrades for cheaper? Like three points for a halberd?

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Yes, but like Strike Squads they're pretty meh! in combat, and their inbuilt psychic power really only works for shooting.

[BrotherWasted]

There's no reason to give Nemesis upgrades to a Purgation Squad, save for MAYBE a halberd on the Justicar in case they get a charge. Looking back, I do like the idea of 4 Psycannons for 180 points - I might just give them a whirl in my 3rd Heavy Support Slot.

 

Of COURSE Purifiers are an either/or squad. Make a choice and gear up appropriately. Personally, I'm not a fan of shooty purifiers. While all of their upgrades are stupidly awesome as far as points go, their statistics and abilities lend them to close combat. This said, it is never bad to have 2 Incinerators in the squad, at least as far as an all-comers list goes. Throw them up against a horde, or even any MEQ squad, flood them with wounds and finish them off with your 18-21 halberd attacks on the charge.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I don't see much point in Purgation squads when you have purifiers. Remember, purifiers can also do 4 psycannons in a 5 man unit if you combat squad. Do a 10 man squad with 4 psycannons and the other half outfitted for CC. Give them a razorback for the CC half to ride in. Makes psybolts more economical as well.

[Ashe Darke]

Purgation Squads are garbage for their points worth and occupy important Heavy Support slots.

Exactly, for my Heavies I'd rather have dreads and then use an Elite slot to make the awesome Purifier unit. Astral Aim is a nice idea but it doesn't make me go 'I MUST HAVE THAT!'

 

And give up a unit that can carry more weapons, shoot without LoS, and take 5 wounds to kill (minimum) to take a single model that can be killed with one decent hit? Don't get me wrong, Dreads have their place, but you can't really compare them to Purgation squads. Purgations squads are very nice if used properly. Especially with Psycannons as unlike normal Dev squads, they can still move and retain some serious firepower. Not to mention NFW make them nasty in melee too. Purgations are an awesome unit. I take Purgations as often as possible and they never let me down.

The Dreads are the only thing that has any real range though, sure the Dreads can't mush most of a unit of marines in one go but a Purgation squad can't pop a rhino on the other side of the board. But a Purifier unit can take the same number of specials as them and can put out the same volume of fire power, sure they have to take more but like I said they can have a 2 fold role and the extra 5 guys are far from useless. All they lack is Astral Aim which I'm not too fussed about.

 

My point was that when all your heavies are gone, 10 purifiers with 4 cannons isn't exactly a bad substitute.

[Angelis Mortis]

Purgation Squads are garbage for their points worth and occupy important Heavy Support slots.

Exactly, for my Heavies I'd rather have dreads and then use an Elite slot to make the awesome Purifier unit. Astral Aim is a nice idea but it doesn't make me go 'I MUST HAVE THAT!'

 

And give up a unit that can carry more weapons, shoot without LoS, and take 5 wounds to kill (minimum) to take a single model that can be killed with one decent hit? Don't get me wrong, Dreads have their place, but you can't really compare them to Purgation squads. Purgations squads are very nice if used properly. Especially with Psycannons as unlike normal Dev squads, they can still move and retain some serious firepower. Not to mention NFW make them nasty in melee too. Purgations are an awesome unit. I take Purgations as often as possible and they never let me down.

The Dreads are the only thing that has any real range though, sure the Dreads can't mush most of a unit of marines in one go but a Purgation squad can't pop a rhino on the other side of the board. But a Purifier unit can take the same number of specials as them and can put out the same volume of fire power, sure they have to take more but like I said they can have a 2 fold role and the extra 5 guys are far from useless. All they lack is Astral Aim which I'm not too fussed about.

 

My point was that when all your heavies are gone, 10 purifiers with 4 cannons isn't exactly a bad substitute.

 

I won't disagree with the Purifier statement, as they are awesome, its just they are more assault oriented. The Astral Aim is awesome when you got 12" of woods between you and the vehicle and you just beat him to death with 16 S7 rending shots. If that doesn't kill him, it sure stands a good chance of immobilizing and ripping all his weapons off.

[Whitefireinferno]

Hey AM the only problem there is if you put a Purifier squad in the same place you will do the same due to I really do not see you now getting LOS through forests so the 4+ cover of shooting through the forest is the same as the 4+ save from astral aim.

[Ashe Darke]

So far the only limitations I've found have been range, not LOS. This might be a difference in the terrain used but LOS hasn't been much of an issue. Sure I could fire while not being shot but I'm not giving up my dreads. They have been consistently awesome. Today I took out 2 Dreads and a Land Speeder on turn 1 which wouldn't have happened with the same amount of points worth Purgation squads.

 

The psycannons have been far better at popping tanks than the Vindicare has though who has been a let down.

[Angelis Mortis]

Hey AM the only problem there is if you put a Purifier squad in the same place you will do the same due to I really do not see you now getting LOS through forests so the 4+ cover of shooting through the forest is the same as the 4+ save from astral aim.

 

Maybe this will be a better scenario. How about the Purgation squad on one side of a building that you can't see through? Normally, you couldn't shoot at the target, with Astral Aim you can and not receive any return fire.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Purgation squads can take teleport homers, this is a subtle but very useful differnece between them and the purifiers.

[Mazer Rackham]

I don't put Incinerators or Psycannons on my GKSS - they drop nemesis and storm bolter - ok so the SB isn't much cop, but with Psybolts it's improved.

 

Incinerator puts you into assault range, Psycannon takes away an I6 power weapon/force weapon. Purgation squads or Purifiers maybe.

 

Your best AT is still a lascannon.

 

IMHO.

 

Edit - Spelling

 

MR.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Incinerators are by no means bad weapons (they're S6 heavy flamers, pretty scary even for Marines), but the psycannon is needed more by the army. We don't have much ranged anti-tank without psycannons. They're well-costed, seeing as they are a gun that will work regardless of target (except maybe vs Wraithlords or C'Tan), and easily spammable. Incinerators really only belong on Interceptors (whom I struggle to find a purpose for as it is), Purifiers (yay free, if you're not taking max psycannon take any non-halberd dudes with incinerator) and Dreadknights (who fly and get greater reach with their version). Everyone else should be packing as many psycannons as possible.

 

Purgators are utter fail. They always eat Heavy slots, they pay a stupid premium for spamming psycannons (where Purifiers get them for the same price as Strike squads), and they're just as bad in close-combat as Strike squads (whilst not being scoring). By the time you start taking Heavy Support, you should already have a strong core of 20-30 dudes packing 2-4 psycannon per squad already (ie Strike and Purifier). Heavy Support is also where the Dreadknight and cost-effective Dreadnoughts live, so even if Purgators were usable, they've just got such strong competition.

 

In summary;

- Strike squads should always pack double psycannon, regardless of loadout/transport etc

- Purifiers should take at least two, four if you can manage (although I've found incinerators help with thinning out MeQ bodies prior to charging, 'Cleansing Flame' can be a bit meh sometimes if your opponent has decent saves)

- Interceptors are mainly a wild-card/interceptor unit, so incinerators make more sense for ninja'ing enemy infantry (going up against armour/heavy infantry is suicide).

- I usually don't have the points for it, but if you find yourself with the points spare, a heavy incinerator is a decent gun for a greatsword+teleporter Dreadknight (ensure he has both those upgrades before giving him the incinerator though).

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Yes, but like Strike Squads they're pretty meh! in combat, and their inbuilt psychic power really only works for shooting.

 

What about Hammerhand? All GK units get the +1 str psychic power so in close combat there is no real difference between SS and Purgation squads.

[BrotherWasted]

I don't put Incinerators or Psycannons on my GKSS - they drop nemesis and storm bolter - ok so the SB isn't much cop, but with Psybolts it's improved.

 

Incinerator puts you into assault range, Psycannon takes away an I6 power weapon/force weapon. Purgation squads or Purifiers maybe.

 

Your best AT is still a lascannon.

 

IMHO.

 

Edit - Spelling

 

MR.

 

 

Can't really explain it further; Lascannons are horrible anti-tank by design. One shot, almost impossible to make twin-linked in this Codex, needs 6s to pen AV14. Take a Rifleman dread instead and immobilise the LR, or smack the thing with a Daemonhammer if you're not going to use Psycannons.

 

I will say I'm still curious about making a Strike Squad an Assault-based unit; 2 attacks on the charge at I6 is certainly alright (though not super awesome), they have frag and defensive grenades, and dropping your special weapons brings the cost in at 315 for 10 Knights with 8 Halberds and 2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammo and a Rhino. Would possibly make it's points back, but for 295 you can get a shooty-shooty squad that kills stuff before it gets to you.

[Ashe Darke]

I will say I'm still curious about making a Strike Squad an Assault-based unit; 2 attacks on the charge at I6 is certainly alright (though not super awesome), they have frag and defensive grenades, and dropping your special weapons brings the cost in at 315 for 10 Knights with 8 Halberds and 2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammo and a Rhino. Would possibly make it's points back, but for 295 you can get a shooty-shooty squad that kills stuff before it gets to you.

I run this

 

7 Halberds

2 Hammers (1 MC'd)

Stave

Rhino, Dozers

 

Not the most killy unit in combat but to be honest two player turns of combat isn't too bad. Say I charge a unit of marines. I kill a bunch at I6, then at I4 I take some wounds, one goes on the stave and the rest on halberds, maybe I lose 1-2 guys. Then my stave attacks, maybe another dead. Their fist then attacks, usually 1 hit, 1 wound, goes on the stave and my 5 hammer attacks kill a few. Hopefully I'll be stuck there until I finish them off in their turn. You gotta be careful to make sure you don't get charged while stuck in combat though.

 

It's worked pretty well so far although experimenting with the 1750 list that has a shooty purifier unit in it I'm a bit curious about how shooty SS units play out. To be honest I think both have their merrits, there's certain advantages and disadvantages each method has but it seems to be quite level as far as I've seen.

[Mazer Rackham]

Can't really explain it further; Lascannons are horrible anti-tank by design. One shot, almost impossible to make twin-linked in this Codex, needs 6s to pen AV14. Take a Rifleman dread instead and immobilise the LR, or smack the thing with a Daemonhammer if you're not going to use Psycannons.

 

I regret I have to disagree. I would point out that that Rifle Dread, (againt AV14) with psybolts is only glancing on 6's, certainly, immobilisation to death is possible, especially with so many shots (and I love the autocannon's versatility) whereas - you said it yourself - Lascannons penetrate on the 6 and might kill the thing in one shot. Especially Monoliths.

 

As for twin-linking we have access to the Razorback, whilst I accept that it's not the most durable platform it has some potential and we also have the standard LR, which gives range as the Rifle dread does, but is also more difficile, also benefitting from POTMS etc. Psybolts augment the HB's giving more punch and they're already Offensive Weapons anyway, so you lose nothing, unlike the Psybolt LRC. I do admit that you pay a premium for all of that.

 

I just don't believe in Psycannons on GKSS, certainly not as AT (although I can see the value in volume Psycannon spam) -GKT however, are a different story.

 

I do accept what you say about Daemonhammers though, although shooting it up from across the table first would be my preference.

 

MR.

[BrotherWasted]

Point for point, there is no difference in the number of shots a Terminator Squad will get from their Psycannons over a Strike Squad. They will both get 4 on the move, and the Strike Squad will get 8 standing still.

 

Lascannons might penetrate it in one shot, and so might a Psycannon, which actually has better odds of doing so, even if you shoot it on the move.

 

I can see why you would not use Psycannons in an Assault-focused Strike Squad, but for a squad geared up for shooting, they in almost all respects the best weapon available to any unit in the Codex, and it is not too far of a stretch to say they are compulsory in that role.

[Marmande]

I'd prefer four twin-linked chances to glance than one chance to pen.

[Daedalus Templarius]

As for twin-linking we have access to the Razorback, whilst I accept that it's not the most durable platform it has some potential and we also have the standard LR, which gives range as the Rifle dread does, but is also more difficile, also benefitting from POTMS etc. Psybolts augment the HB's giving more punch and they're already Offensive Weapons anyway, so you lose nothing, unlike the Psybolt LRC. I do admit that you pay a premium for all of that.

 

Razorback doesn't have PotMS.

 

I usually laugh at lascannons shooting at my LRs, I can count on one hand how many times I've been damaged by one in the last several games.

[doomshroom]

For those of you who don't care for walls of text, just go to the bottom.

 

Alright, so here's my two cents on the matter:

 

For Strike Squads, you can't beat 10 man with two Psycannons, a MC Demonhammer, and the psybolt ammo upgrade; it's an unparalleled mid-range shooting unit, and it comes in at only 255pts, or 295 with a rhino. This loadout will undoubtedly become the bread and butter troop choice for GK lists. You shouldn't try to force a strike squad to be assault oriented, they are just too poor at it for the cost. To put it in perspective, a regular GK with halberd is 25pts. A purifier, with an additional attack, and base LD 9, and Cleansing Flame, is 26pts kitted out with a halberd. One point of difference for twice the value, 1.5x on the charge, it's a no brainer. And if for some reason you fancy loading up on the other NFW choices, the cost disparity only rises.

 

As far as Purgation squads go, you don't gain anything out of purchasing Psycannons for them. You should have two units of Strike Squads with two apiece, and have other types of AT elsewhere. That heavy slot is worth so much more than 4-8 bs4 Psycannon shots a turn, especially since you're paying as much for these Psycannons as you would for Relentless Termies! That, and Astral Aim doesn't do anything for me. The only other unit in the game that has the same ability, to my knowledge, is hive guard. For 'Nids, the ability can be a life saver, as they only have three units capable of reliable ranged AT, two of which occupy the same Force Org slot! This means they have very few units capable of popping tanks from range, and their enemy knows that. Being able to hide hive guard behind LOS blocking terrain while still being able to fire allows the 'Nids player to delay their death long enough to pop open some transports, so the rest of the bugs have something to charge. With Grey Knights, you should again have enough similar shots scattered around your force that you won't need to worry about having line to a target. Secondly, people seem to forget that it's a psychic power, which means that it is far from guaranteed to be of any benefit period. You can set them up behind LOS blocking terrain and fail your psychic test/watch it get nullified by a psychic hood, runes of warding, shadow in the warp, etc. and then lose out on any shooting from the Purgation squad at all!

 

In my opinion, the Purgation squad only has one truly effective possibilty: five man squad, four Incinerators, and a rhino @ 140pts. It's the cheapest, most effective Easy-Bake Oven aside from maybe Burna Boyz. Even then it's situational, and should only be put in a list that is deliberately designed to make use of it. Personally, I will just steer clear of Purgation squads entirely.

 

Which brings us to Purifiers.... I agree with what someone said above me, but stupidly I didn't "quick reply," and can't cite them. I like a ten man squad, four psycannons, and everybody else kitted out for hand-to-hand, and possibly with psybolt ammo. Either run them together, or combat squaded for increased tactical efficiency. This is how I would run a Crowe army, personally. Same amounts of shooty, much more choppy, and barely more expensive than GKSS.

 

For Interceptors and Termies, I'm not quite sure which I like better. Both have their merits, but i haven't played enough with either of these unit types to have a solid concept yet.

 

With Paladins, Psycannons aaaaaaallll day. Mastercraft those bad boys and go to town! I've been experimenting with making a ten man squad and combat squading. You get one unit with four MC Psycannons, the other in a landraider ready to bust skulls. With the number of NFW options, it's easy as pie to implement wound allocation douchebaggery and try to make them worth their points. What's fantastic is that people tend to both over-estimate their strength and under-estimate their (small arms) resilience, so they tend to play a big role. But, they still seem to be a relatively weak choice, as things like vindicators, medusas, and THSS assault Termies devastate these guys. The lack of better than 5++ for ranged attacks is a HUGE weakness. Having said that, they are quite enjoyable to field in a non-competitive atmosphere; watching them not die becomes a focal point of the game!

 

 

For those of you who don't care for walls of text: Psycannons win out in most every situation, with incinerators only being optimal for very specific tactical applications.