Gornall Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 How would you go about making a competitive Draigo list? I doubt that Pally spam is the way to go, and was actually leaning towards only 1-2 smallish units. What do some seasoned GK/Tourny Vets think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Kaldor is expensive point wise but you get Eternal Warrior, Stormshield plus he is S5/T5/4W and he unlocks Paladins as a troop choice. I'm not excited about GK terminators but for only 15 more points per model you get the Paladin. It's hard to say what is the best build but I want to run a pure GK army so Draigos is worth the points for the type of army I want to play. In terms of competitiveness a generic Grand Master can be insta gibbed by a power fist so I'd rather pay the extra points for Draigos. G :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2733971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec.ops Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 He is a BEAST! A BEAST! Did I say he was a BEAST! However, I don’t see him being competitive as much as we all want him to be. His troops are expensive, slow, and lack defense even with FNP because they don’t have a 3++ save. There might be way to make them faster or alteast draw fire off of them while they advance, but again, cost. Lastly, one could increase their save with some troop-bubble wrap, but again, cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2733993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godhead Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 If you dump toys on a GKGM, then you end up paying almost as much as what you would for Draigo. Draigo is a BEAST...I think Draigo with a small squad of Pallys in a LR or SR that just happens to become scoring is how you could most effectively play him. Then just use him as a GM for the grand strategy and build the rest of your list that way. Run his squad with like 3 to 4 pallys with swords and hammers to allocate wounds too. Definitely put them in a transport and go to town. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 The combat philosophy for paladins should be pretty straight forward. Paladins are vulnerable to high str low ap weaponry, so have whatever the rest of your army consists of be better for it. You'll achieve target saturation, and they won't be able to deal. Paladins are not afraid of any sort of small arms due to 2+ and fnp, and aren't particularly concerned about medium strength low ap weapons due to multiple wounds. Power weapons are also not all that efficient due to 4++ in CC from swords, or 2++ from staves, and multiple wounds. So, they only really fear high str low ap weapons like lascannons and meltas, and high str power weapons like fists or dreadnought CC weapons. High str low ap weapons like demolisher cannons will hurt them of course, but they hurt everything. So, fill the rest of your points with dreadknights, dreadnoughts, and vehicles. All of your opponent's small arms will be wasted. Unless they have an unusually high number of lascannons, they just won't have enough to go around to deal with everything. Their powerweapon toting CC experts won't be efficient, and they won't have enough fists to go round either. It may also make sense to have lots of small units of Paladins rather than a few big ones, and FNP is probably not going to be needed in all of them. Having lots of small units will make you less vulnerable to blast templates, and be just too many units for your opponent to shoot at. Has anyone tried 3 man paladin squads deepstriking everywhere? It's the same saturation rules we all know from armor saturation and MC saturation lists. it's just in this case it's nasty-cc-unit-impervious-to-small-arms saturation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Blood Donator Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 The combat philosophy for paladins should be pretty straight forward. Paladins are vulnerable to high str low ap weaponry, so have whatever the rest of your army consists of be better for it. You'll achieve target saturation, and they won't be able to deal. Paladins are not afraid of any sort of small arms due to 2+ and fnp, and aren't particularly concerned about medium strength low ap weapons due to multiple wounds. Power weapons are also not all that efficient due to 4++ in CC from swords, or 2++ from staves, and multiple wounds. So, they only really fear high str low ap weapons like lascannons and meltas, and high str power weapons like fists or dreadnought CC weapons. High str low ap weapons like demolisher cannons will hurt them of course, but they hurt everything. So, fill the rest of your points with dreadknights, dreadnoughts, and vehicles. All of your opponent's small arms will be wasted. Unless they have an unusually high number of lascannons, they just won't have enough to go around to deal with everything. Their powerweapon toting CC experts won't be efficient, and they won't have enough fists to go round either. It may also make sense to have lots of small units of Paladins rather than a few big ones, and FNP is probably not going to be needed in all of them. Having lots of small units will make you less vulnerable to blast templates, and be just too many units for your opponent to shoot at. Has anyone tried 3 man paladin squads deepstriking everywhere? It's the same saturation rules we all know from armor saturation and MC saturation lists. it's just in this case it's nasty-cc-unit-impervious-to-small-arms saturation. You will be shocked to see that paladins don't have FNP, nor is it worth the point investment to give it to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaClocKWorKoX Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 the smallest i run pally squad is 6 which is 405 points ( with apoth ) so for 430 you get a 2w/i6/4 attack ( banner + charge ) ista gib unit. i dont use them in any list smaller than 1500 though but draigo ( 275 ) SR ( 250+ ) spons + telly homer 5 man pally squad halberds and banner with apoth ( 375 ) roughly 900 points for 1 squad and two kill points to get in and get nasty fast pardon any grammer or engrish ive been drinking Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 You will be shocked to see that paladins don't have FNP, nor is it worth the point investment to give it to them. Not particularly, seeing as how I mention that the apoth isn't always going to be worthwhile. So...duh? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. roughly 900 points for 1 squad and two kill points 3 Kill points actually, but that's still really low for 900 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaClocKWorKoX Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 low what amount for 3 kill points or low amount of troops for that much points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl00d bath76 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I think the commen misinterpretation of Draigo is the I MUST HAVE PALADINS philosphy. (Personaly i think paladins are only worth it if you have a librarian and an inquisitor. Inquisitor for psychic communion and skulls. Then deepstrike paladins into cover for a 3+ cover. Draigo costs too much to make in this situation) For this reason i would use him on his own. He is very durable and as long as you don't get into close combat with a dreadnought he should fair pretty well. Just deepstrike him near an objective and then push them of that objective. With one round of shooting he is very hard to stop. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 low what amount for 3 kill points or low amount of troops for that much points Usually 900 points of units is going to be considerably more than 3 kill points. So, low amount of kill points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 You will be shocked to see that paladins don't have FNP, nor is it worth the point investment to give it to them. Says you. Don't invest in that apothecary then let me hit you with a 50 man mob of IG with First rank fire, second rank fire. Bet after that you think its well worth the points. I don't mind losing Termies to Lascannons or Demolishers, but losing them to bolters and lasguns pisses me right off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 What we also shouldn't forget is any attached Characters you add to an Apothecary unit. So with 10 Pallies, and an Apothecary, adding Draigo and a Libby/OM TDA Inquisitor/Another GM/BC to the same unit spreads the FNP love even futher. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massaen Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 You will be shocked to see that paladins don't have FNP, nor is it worth the point investment to give it to them. Says you. Don't invest in that apothecary then let me hit you with a 50 man mob of IG with First rank fire, second rank fire. Bet after that you think its well worth the points. I don't mind losing Termies to Lascannons or Demolishers, but losing them to bolters and lasguns pisses me right off. 150 shots, 75 hits, 25 wounds, just over 4 failed saves... and with wound allocation its zero kills... then the termies destroy you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 You will be shocked to see that paladins don't have FNP, nor is it worth the point investment to give it to them. Says you. Don't invest in that apothecary then let me hit you with a 50 man mob of IG with First rank fire, second rank fire. Bet after that you think its well worth the points. I don't mind losing Termies to Lascannons or Demolishers, but losing them to bolters and lasguns pisses me right off. 150 shots, 75 hits, 25 wounds, just over 4 failed saves... and with wound allocation its zero kills... then the termies destroy you! The zero kills part is something you can't really math out well, imo. You can figure out the average number of saves you will fail, but there's no reason to predict that they will all neatly be distributed among the models in the squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 At the moment I'd say 'not', I can't see a Draigo list being too competitive. The thing is: Draigo himself isn't really good... 275 points 'combat monster' (which can't even handle a Dread lol) with a threat range of 12" in an army full of force weapons? I'm not too excited about that. See, a normal Grand Master is taken mostly for his 'Grand Strategy'. Other things making him good are his option to special Grenades, skulls and the fact that he gives Hammerhand to a unit (so they can use their force weapon ability). Now Draigo doesn't let you do all of these things and makes himself better at something you don't necessarily want in the first place. (being somewhat of a combat monster) What does a 100 point increase also mean? Less points for other stuff. What does Paladins at 55 each mean? Even less points for other stuff. What does that mean? Imbalanced build where a few bad rolls or an unlucky mathcup screws you over. "Oh darn, I just rolled 3 1's and lost 3 Pallies to some Missiles!" And no, that's not bad luck, that's mostly a sign of a bad army. (army unsuited for competitive play) On the other hand: He's rather hard to kill and Paladins are too, single Pallies which can score is also sweet. But that doesn't save it I'm afraid. I've done an article on another look at Draigo though, the way which I would run him if I had to: http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/03/...other-look.html There are some thoughts on Draigo and Paladins in general too, so probably worth reading anyhow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionTheImp Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Here's the thing about Paladins: They aren't fearless. This means they can be Tank Shocked!, Pinned, anything that uses Leadership checks can be used against them, and you'll have to take a Morale Check for every model you do lose. Now, Ld9 is great, and not many things do require Leadership checks, but it is possible to use these disadvantages against them. I would laugh quite hard if I ever saw a Tau army pin down Paladins for a whole game. Deathwing are Fearless and now have access to 3++ Storm Shields, so, they don't care what you have, they'll move and shoot you with missiles, and sit on objectives until every last person is killed. I think if Paladins were Fearless and could carry weapons that were greater than 24" range they could be a viable army even without Storm Shields, but as they are now, I doubt it. As for Draigo himself, I can barely make a GK list using Inquisitor HQ's that I like, I can't imagine how much trouble I'd have using a 275 point character. "Draigowing" armies as I suppose they call it, probably won't be viable, ever, they'll be an army people might use in LGS to beat the snot out of noobs with, but I can't imagine Draigowing ever winning or coming close to winning a tournament. Only time will tell though, and with the GK Codex just out it's not a bad idea to explore all ideas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 IIRC Deathwing are Stubborn, not Fearless. We can get Stubborn Pallies by atting a cheap as chips OM Inquisitor with TDA (and Psycannon) to a unit of them. Ld10, Stubborn. Job done. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionTheImp Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I play Deathwing, they're Fearless. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 K! ;) It's been years since I looked at the DA 'dex. Could have sworn back in the day comparing our 46 point fearless Termines to the DA 43 point stubborn ones, but I guess it's old age catching up to me! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drunk Guardian Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Draigo 10x Paladins (Apothecary, BB, NWS, 4xMC-PsC, all 10 configured differently for wound allocation games) Coteaz (Stubborn, Sanctuary, 3x Ablative Wounds) Techmarine (Blind, Rad, Psychotroke Grenades, S-H [beamer isn't a good fit here]) In support: 2x Psyfle Venerable Dreadnoughts Dreads provide the ranged support necessary to threaten stuff that's got mobility and is going to stay away from the above. Specifically, if you're looking at Vindicators or other massively threatening armor that can instagib stuff in your squad, use the Dreads to stunlock those vehicles at a minimum. Venerable rule and the Techmarines repair ability keeps the dreads alive. Draigo takes a majority of the incoming wounds... specifically the high S, low AP stuff. Wound allocation will allow you to assign wounds based on whatever you need least as they come in. Should anything survive long enough to make it into assault range... yeah, good luck assaulting this squad. Great for killpoint missions. With Coteaz, you can add multiple CHEAP scoring units for objective games. Psychic communion will help keep them off the board. Personally I prefer 5x warrior acolytes and a Razorback with TL-HB and Psybolt ammo at a whopping 70 points each. I doubt this is competitive, but damn fun. An alternative to this, specifically in very high point games, drop Coteaz for a 20 pt cheaper Ordo Malleus inquisitor in Terminator armor and a psycannon. The added shooting goodness makes the unit even more potent, at the cost of Sanctuary (overkill with the way this unit can handle assaults anyway). Mostly Coteaz is for the troop warbands. The other factor - the Techmarine's bolster ruins - bolster a ruin near center field and get this squad in there, and you're sitting at 2+3++ from everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Draigo is a combat beatstick. Unfortunately he's a combat beatstick in an army full of combat beatsticks. When you can (if you really want to) buy a 25 point Inquisitor to lead the army, then spend the 250 points saved over Draigo to buy more troops, there's not a huge incentive to take him. My preference will always be Coteaz (although that may be because without him my army is illegal) because he's cheap, adds the flexibility of really cheap troops to the mix, and looks so cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Coteaz got hit by the nerf bat real hard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 True, he's not as good as he used to be. Ward definitely went for "Grey Knights characters wreck face in combat" while "Inquisitors do clever things for your army" but so be it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massaen Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 The zero kills part is something you can't really math out well, imo. You can figure out the average number of saves you will fail, but there's no reason to predict that they will all neatly be distributed among the models in the squad. Depends on the size of the unit. 5 termies would be taking 5 wounds each with the chance of each failing 1 save about 16%. Odds are good that i won't loose a termie. With 10 models its even better for me. Plus you need to KILL at least 2 to force a LD test... and thats for 5 models! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228165-competitive-draigo/#findComment-2734858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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