Gentlemanloser Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 That's a very blinkered opinion I don't agree with. Anyone opting to play with the +2A version isn't always doing it to WAAC, and it's a diservice to your opponents to think so. The problem with falchions giving 2A is that they're to cheap for that. I don't think it was GW's intention to give you 4 attack base 45 point terminators. Compared to S10 or S5/I6 Termies for only 40 points? Chaos Termies (for example only) can get 3 base attacks for 40 points, and then add an icon of Khorne on top for 4 base... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Blood Donator Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 That's a very blinkered opinion I don't agree with. Anyone opting to play with the +2A version isn't always doing it to WAAC, and it's a diservice to your opponents to think so. The problem with falchions giving 2A is that they're to cheap for that. I don't think it was GW's intention to give you 4 attack base 45 point terminators. Compared to S10 or S5/I6 Termies for only 40 points? Chaos Termies (for example only) can get 3 base attacks for 40 points, and then add an icon of Khorne on top for 4 base... Who has str 10 termies? And I6 termies? edit: Doh, GK do. On a side note, chaos terminators don't have any special rules whatsoever. No ATSKNF, no smancy psychic powers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Grey Knights with NDH or NFH. :P Which are free, unlike the Falchions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Blood Donator Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Grey Knights with NDH or NFH. :P Which are free, unlike the Falchions. I guess you make a valid point there. Eeer. I've never thought about these weird little freebies they have xD I was thinking about base stats, I s'pose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
embalancer Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Also does Quickening make a thunder hammer I10 or does it still default to I1 Strikes last (I1), the "bonus" from the hammer is applied after the power. The exception to this might be Dreadknights with a deamon hammer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Also does Quickening make a thunder hammer I10 or does it still default to I1 Strikes last (I1), the "bonus" from the hammer is applied after the power. The exception to this might be Dreadknights with a deamon hammer Edit: I'm an idiot, please disregard what I posted before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksaw Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 Inquisitor Coteaz.........another brain buster..... Does this mean I can take Elite Choices, which take no organization as troops that take no organization? Implying I could take units of 12 Death Cult Assasins as scoring units until my points run out? This codex needs a massive FAQ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=224872 :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksaw Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 How is everyone playing this for now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Differently. Some will take the 6 Troop limit, some won't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prototype Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 The way we play it is Hammerhand does not stack as if it did they would have explicitly said so. "They didn't say it doesn't stack" is just rule lawyering, something my friends and I would surely frown upon. Same goes for Henchmen - if you take Coteaz they are "Troop choices" and as such, are subject to the limitations of Troop choices - six slots. And the codex is clear on the Falchions - a pair gives +1A, you cannot claim another +1A because they are used in a pair as their rules itself explicitly say "a pair has +1A". These things I believe need no real FAQ because I cannot see how others would take it any differently unless they were just trying to be rule lawyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2735938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksaw Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 I agree with you on all points, except maybe the Henchmen taking a force organisation. It says clearly that they use no force organisation, but then again, thats when they are counted as elites. The other things I brought up are just things that people have mentioned to me to make me go HUH!!!! I dont want to go to the Ard Boyz and get hit with I10 A5 S7 Purifiers......hahahahahaha Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 The way we play it is Hammerhand does not stack as if it did they would have explicitly said so. "They didn't say it doesn't stack" is just rule lawyering, something my friends and I would surely frown upon. Same goes for Henchmen - if you take Coteaz they are "Troop choices" and as such, are subject to the limitations of Troop choices - six slots. And the codex is clear on the Falchions - a pair gives +1A, you cannot claim another +1A because they are used in a pair as their rules itself explicitly say "a pair has +1A". These things I believe need no real FAQ because I cannot see how others would take it any differently unless they were just trying to be rule lawyers. This is how I see all those as well. I think to make them say otherwise really requires some serious wiggling to get them to do so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 RAW, the fact that Henchmen do not count for FOC has nothing to do with the fact that they are normally an Elites choice. Quoted from the army list, it simply states: For every Inquisitor in your army, you may include a unit of 3-12 Henchmen chosen in any combination from those shown. This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." Making the unit a Troops choice does not suddenly invalidate this statement - it cannot, as Coteaz's ability does not have any connection to this innate rule of the Henchmen unit. Coteaz can only ever have an effect on the unit type, not it's rules. RAW, you can take unlimited Henchmen units in a Coteaz list. Coteaz makes absolutely no mention of the Force Organisation exemption in his ability - he simply changes the unit type from Elite to Troops. Going by the permissive rules system of 40K, the Henchmen do not lose the exemption from the FOC unless an ability specifically states as such. There is no rules lawyering with Coteaz - access to unlimited Henchmen units is EXACTLY how the rules are written. I was wrong about Hammerhand - I have had two Games Workshop store managers tell me that the effect stacked with itself, and thus have used it accordingly until now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I was wrong about Hammerhand - I have had two Games Workshop store managers tell me that the effect stacked with itself, and thus have used it accordingly until now. Games workshop store employees (yes even the managers) are notoriously bad at rules issues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksaw Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 I agree with the Coteaz thing......I dont think he takes away the "no force org" thing just because he moves them to troops. As far as hammerhand goes......IF it were to stack it would be WAY too much, and I dont think it was intended that way.........HOWEVER GW is notorious about putting too much ambiguity in their codex writing. The fact is most people who play this game are fairly meticulous in their reading, and as such GW should have their cedex team proof these suckers...hahahaha I am just saying let the nerds use it before putting us trhough long threads like THIS waiting for an FAQ.... I also dont want to buy 40 death cult assasin models only to find out later that they are not unlimited and I can only take 6 units max.... I thought the Falchion thing was clear too, UNTIL I read the main rulebook page 42 to be exact. I think the cost of the Falchion is on par for granting +2 attacks, but the codex is a tad unclear on this, at least I think so. I hate rules lawyering, but since I play with a bunch of them I have to stay up to speed, so try not to throw too much mud at me...hahaha :cry: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToI Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I agree with the Coteaz thing......I dont think he takes away the "no force org" thing just because he moves them to troops. As far as hammerhand goes......IF it were to stack it would be WAY too much, and I dont think it was intended that way.........HOWEVERGW is notorious about putting too much ambiguity in their codex writing. The fact is most people who play this game are fairly meticulous in their reading, and as such GW should have their cedex team proof these suckers...hahahaha I am just saying let the nerds use it before putting us trhough long threads like THIS waiting for an FAQ.... I also dont want to buy 40 death cult assasin models only to find out later that they are not unlimited and I can only take 6 units max.... I thought the Falchion thing was clear too, UNTIL I read the main rulebook page 42 to be exact. I think the cost of the Falchion is on par for granting +2 attacks, but the codex is a tad unclear on this, at least I think so. I hate rules lawyering, but since I play with a bunch of them I have to stay up to speed, so try not to throw too much mud at me...hahaha :whistling: I heartily disagree with the coteaz statement interpretation. The rule says that for EACH inquisitor you have in your army you make take A unit of henchment 3-12 models, and then it goes on to say that "this unit does not use up a FOC slot" in the same section. RAW the section is all one rule set. It doesn't say that you can take as many units of henchmen as you like until you run out of points, it specifically says it does not take up a FOC slot under the rule about taking an inquisitor. IF you could take as many as you wanted why would they put the entry under elites. The unit takes up a FOC slot when you have no inquisitor, it take up a different FOC slot when you take coteaz, and any units you take per the inquisitor rule do not...but as you can only have 2 inquisitors in the army you may only have 2 units of henchmen hanging out in the void outside the FOC...I really don't see this as a RAW/RAI...the words are clear... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'm willing to bet a loaf of bread that GW will say it doesn't stack - but let's assume they say it does... put this squad together: Draigos w. HH Librarian w. MoT & Quicksilver Techmarine w. HH Techmarine w. HH Techmarine w. HH Paladins w. HH & Brotherhood banner So basically if you attach them all you've got a combined potential to always swing first at S9/10 plus 2d6 AP with the force weapon plus the force weapons are automatically activated. Put them in a landraider Crusader and have some fun with it. I'm sure that was the intent. :huh: G :whistling: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Blood Donator Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'm willing to bet a loaf of bread that GW will say it doesn't stack - but let's assume they say it does... put this squad together: Draigos w. HH Librarian w. MoT & Quicksilver Techmarine w. HH Techmarine w. HH Techmarine w. HH Paladins w. HH & Brotherhood banner So basically if you attach them all you've got a combined potential to always swing first at S9/10 plus 2d6 AP with the force weapon plus the force weapons are automatically activated. Put them in a landraider Crusader and have some fun with it. I'm sure that was the intent. ;) G :ph34r: Also, if hammerhand could stack, then so could might of heroes for blood angels, as the FAQ allowed librarians to cast the same power twice. 2 D3 bonus attacks yes please. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksaw Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 Ummmm I agree with the Coteaz thing......I dont think he takes away the "no force org" thing just because he moves them to troops. As far as hammerhand goes......IF it were to stack it would be WAY too much, and I dont think it was intended that way.........HOWEVERGW is notorious about putting too much ambiguity in their codex writing. The fact is most people who play this game are fairly meticulous in their reading, and as such GW should have their cedex team proof these suckers...hahahaha I am just saying let the nerds use it before putting us trhough long threads like THIS waiting for an FAQ.... I also dont want to buy 40 death cult assasin models only to find out later that they are not unlimited and I can only take 6 units max.... I thought the Falchion thing was clear too, UNTIL I read the main rulebook page 42 to be exact. I think the cost of the Falchion is on par for granting +2 attacks, but the codex is a tad unclear on this, at least I think so. I hate rules lawyering, but since I play with a bunch of them I have to stay up to speed, so try not to throw too much mud at me...hahaha :P I heartily disagree with the coteaz statement interpretation. The rule says that for EACH inquisitor you have in your army you make take A unit of henchment 3-12 models, and then it goes on to say that "this unit does not use up a FOC slot" in the same section. RAW the section is all one rule set. It doesn't say that you can take as many units of henchmen as you like until you run out of points, it specifically says it does not take up a FOC slot under the rule about taking an inquisitor. IF you could take as many as you wanted why would they put the entry under elites. The unit takes up a FOC slot when you have no inquisitor, it take up a different FOC slot when you take coteaz, and any units you take per the inquisitor rule do not...but as you can only have 2 inquisitors in the army you may only have 2 units of henchmen hanging out in the void outside the FOC...I really don't see this as a RAW/RAI...the words are clear... I dont think I follow your point Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 RAW, the fact that Henchmen do not count for FOC has nothing to do with the fact that they are normally an Elites choice. Quoted from the army list, it simply states: For every Inquisitor in your army, you may include a unit of 3-12 Henchmen chosen in any combination from those shown. This unit does not use up a force organisation slot." Making the unit a Troops choice does not suddenly invalidate this statement - it cannot, as Coteaz's ability does not have any connection to this innate rule of the Henchmen unit. Coteaz can only ever have an effect on the unit type, not it's rules. RAW, you can take unlimited Henchmen units in a Coteaz list. Coteaz makes absolutely no mention of the Force Organisation exemption in his ability - he simply changes the unit type from Elite to Troops. Going by the permissive rules system of 40K, the Henchmen do not lose the exemption from the FOC unless an ability specifically states as such. There is no rules lawyering with Coteaz - access to unlimited Henchmen units is EXACTLY how the rules are written. I was wrong about Hammerhand - I have had two Games Workshop store managers tell me that the effect stacked with itself, and thus have used it accordingly until now. Nothing personal, but I'd never bother playing with someone that gamey. The way I and everyone I play with agrees that Coteaz making them Troops overrides the "does not use up a force organisation slot". To be honest, where did you get the idea that 40k is a permissive rule system? 40k, due to its reliable lack of clarity over the years, more than anything, has a rule set that requires logic and understanding the heart and intent of the rules that were written. If by that vein why not just say teleporter-equipped Dreadknights are no longer MC's? Or say that Hammerhand stacks when it is fairly clear to anyone who isn't trying to be a gamey person that it doesn't stack? And seriously, GW staff are bad sources for rules. Even way back when they had Roolz Boyz (~10 years ago or so they had GW staff you could mail to ask rule questions), even they have given us SEVERAL wrong answers. I'm a little tired of seeing rule lawyers in GW games, and it seems the GK one is attracting more than its fair share of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 You tell 'em bro! You said it better than I could. :lol: G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksaw Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 I have to agree too.......as much as I want to play GK....I think I will just collect them and go back to my Chaos lists..... Nothing has been accomplished here, except making me not want to play GK I appreciate all the helpful posts though..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 You can make a GK list that counts as k Sons. G :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksaw Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 Not where I live..... They call it a proxy if you use models from an existing army to play another.... For example, I tried to use World Eaters as Blood Angels and got disqualified. Even though chaos cant use Storm Ravens. Very picky bunch Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228184-hammerhand/page/2/#findComment-2736838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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