Hammerhand

[BrotherWasted]

RAW, the fact that Henchmen do not count for FOC has nothing to do with the fact that they are normally an Elites choice. Quoted from the army list, it simply states:

 

For every Inquisitor in your army, you may include a unit of 3-12 Henchmen chosen in any combination from those shown. This unit does not use up a force organisation slot."

 

Making the unit a Troops choice does not suddenly invalidate this statement - it cannot, as Coteaz's ability does not have any connection to this innate rule of the Henchmen unit. Coteaz can only ever have an effect on the unit type, not it's rules.

 

RAW, you can take unlimited Henchmen units in a Coteaz list. Coteaz makes absolutely no mention of the Force Organisation exemption in his ability - he simply changes the unit type from Elite to Troops. Going by the permissive rules system of 40K, the Henchmen do not lose the exemption from the FOC unless an ability specifically states as such.

 

There is no rules lawyering with Coteaz - access to unlimited Henchmen units is EXACTLY how the rules are written.

 

I was wrong about Hammerhand - I have had two Games Workshop store managers tell me that the effect stacked with itself, and thus have used it accordingly until now.

Nothing personal, but I'd never bother playing with someone that gamey. The way I and everyone I play with agrees that Coteaz making them Troops overrides the "does not use up a force organisation slot". To be honest, where did you get the idea that 40k is a permissive rule system? 40k, due to its reliable lack of clarity over the years, more than anything, has a rule set that requires logic and understanding the heart and intent of the rules that were written. If by that vein why not just say teleporter-equipped Dreadknights are no longer MC's? Or say that Hammerhand stacks when it is fairly clear to anyone who isn't trying to be a gamey person that it doesn't stack?

 

And seriously, GW staff are bad sources for rules. Even way back when they had Roolz Boyz (~10 years ago or so they had GW staff you could mail to ask rule questions), even they have given us SEVERAL wrong answers. I'm a little tired of seeing rule lawyers in GW games, and it seems the GK one is attracting more than its fair share of that.

 

It was people in this very forum, in this VERY THREAD who told me that 40K has a permissive rules system.

 

Screw intent. You want to write a book, you make your rules airtight and not open to interpretation. They are called "rulebooks" for a reason - you give the book to a player and they should have a very, very clear view about how their army's rules operate.

 

Rules lawyers exist in every game. Rules lawyers can be controlled by hiring decent rules teams who can get their intent across with almost no room for interpretation. The GK book is attracting a lot of lawyers BECAUSE GW has no idea how to get their point across. You say that the current rules require logic? If so, then why can there be more than one interpretation of the rules? Logic and intent are mutually exclusive, and you are not psychic - you do NOT KNOW the designers intent. Logic can only operate based on the written words of the rules. Logic dictates that Coteaz allows unlimited henchmen. Logic dictates that because Might of Titan has a clause that allows stacking, and Hammerhand does not, then Hammerhand does not stack. Logic dictates that a Dreadknight remains Jump Infantry and a Monstrous Creature as nothing says you cannot have more than one unit type.

 

I consult the GW store managers, because that is where I play, and that is where our tournaments are held. If the staff and judges cannot come to a consensus, the playerbase has absolutely no chance of doing so.

 

It is not up to the players to guess what GW is thinking. We should not have to use steaming piles of :P to play our games. We shouldn't need FAQs or any clarification from GW after a book is released. And this can be achieved to an extent, by implementing a writing standard throughout rulebooks and codices. Other games do it, GW needs to start following suit.

[Gentlemanloser]

My gaming group would like to fire the playtesters of the Dex, and the guy who gave it the final green light.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Yeah, this is getting stupid. I thought that the Blood Angels dex had severe issues when it came out, but the GK dex is in a league of its own.

 

I'm not sure how this will play out tough, especially as some crazy stuff in the B.A dex got FAQ'ed into the liberal interpetation of the rule. Hello smoke launchers on scout move.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Every codex GW introduces new rules that are a bit unclear. It's not worth getting mad about - both a RAI purist and RAW purist can both be interpreting the rules as they believe they should be. The RAI purist thinks the RAW purist is exploiting the rules while the RAW purist thinks the RAI purist is a fluff Nazi. I think everybody agrees the rules overall aren't airtight. Sometimes RAW simply breaks down and doesn't work. I think the best approach is to look at new rules from both sides and precedence is important as well. Sometimes the answers in the GW FAQs seem to come out of left field; it's important to note that the answers in the FAQs aren't always written by the same people who wrote the codex. If you can make a solid case that shows a particular interpretation is silly/broken that can help.

 

I like to see new rules introduced because it helps to keep the game fresh. Like anything else you have to take the good with the bad. It is what it is.

 

G :tu:

[DeepDarkSecret]

Hammerhand stacks with itself, as well as Might of Titan. If you attach an IC to a unit, there are two separate Psykers in the unit, therefore they may both cast Hammerhand.

 

Something I personally love doing is Mordrak + 5 Ghost Knights + Librarian w/ Halberd (Libby is IC, Mordrak is not, therefore he can join their unit); Libby casts both Hammerhand and Might of Titan, then Mordrak casts Hammerhand (he's not an IC, so he and the Ghost Knights are a single psyker). Mordrak's Daemonhammer just becomes S10 w/ rerolls to hit, but the rest of the squad is going at Intiative 6 with S7 halberds.

 

If in doubt, swap the Librarian's Hammerhand for The Quickening; everybody is then initiative 10 + Strength 6 (except for Mordrak).

 

 

I don't know if this was covered in one of the earlier posts and I'm not reading every post on here to figure that out but I think you are incorrect in your assumption that Mordrak doesn't get to use his own psychic abilities. First of all he has Psychic Communion which his squad doesn't have. He also does not have "Brotherhood is Psykers" Special rule and the ghost knights do. And one top of that he specifically is a "Psyker"

[BrotherWasted]

Mordrak gets to use his abilities, and the squad would be able to, although it would be pointless since Hammerhand doesn't stack. It wouldn't really matter who casts Hammerhand - they all have Leadership 10 and the bonus gets given to the entire unit.

[DeepDarkSecret]

It would matter quite a bit who cast it if you planned on using the force weapons.

[jeffersonian000]

It would matter quite a bit who cast it if you planned on using the force weapons.

 

Not really. Mordrak has mastery level 1, so can only use one power per turn, and as long as he has Ghost Knights in play, he's an upgrade character in their unit. This means that they can either use Hammerhand or Force Weapon, but not both in the same turn. If you add in an independent character that has at least mastery level 2, then the entire unit can activate both their Hammerhand and their Nemesis weapons (since the independent character requires a separate FW activation). If a banner is present, the only power you have to roll on is the Hammerhand, but it would still require mastery level 2 to activate both o the same unit in the same turn.

 

SJ

[DeepDarkSecret]

Where does everyone get that you have to be an independent character to use a psychic power? He is a psyker, psykers can use psychic powers, ghosts have brotherhood of psykers so they can use their own psychic ability. So he activates hammerhand they activate force weapons. He won't have a force weapon but in 99% of cases he won't need it.

[jeffersonian000]

Oh, yeah! Sorry, I forgot he has that crap-tastic rend-blade and not a useful force weapon. My bad. Yeah, his unit could do both, even at mastery 1.

 

SJ

[Valerian]

Oh, yeah! Sorry, I forgot he has that crap-tastic rend-blade and not a useful force weapon. My bad. Yeah, his unit could do both, even at mastery 1.

 

SJ

 

What? Mordrak has a Nemesis Daemon Hammer. Are you thinking of Crowe?

 

V

[jeffersonian000]

Well, here's the thing. I was correct in my first post, yet responded to the immediate comment with a mis-quote. As such, I'm not going to bounce between commenters. My first statement stands:

 

If Mordrak is in a unit of Ghost Knights, they may either use Hammerhand or their Force Weapons, not both. This is due to Mordrak counting as an upgrade character for the unit of Ghost Knights, which requires the unit as a whole to use its powers at mastery level 1 (because Mordrak is mastery level 1, the unit is mastery level 1, and Mordrak + Ghosts = no independent character = 1 unit = 1 power per turn).

 

SJ

[DeepDarkSecret]

Where does everyone get that you have to be an independent character to use a psychic power? He is a psyker, psykers can use psychic powers, ghosts have brotherhood of psykers so they can use their own psychic ability. So he activates hammerhand they activate force weapons. He won't have a force weapon but in 99% of cases he won't need it.

 

I am quoting myself here... You do NOT have to be an independent character do use your own psychic ability. The ONLY stipulation to use a Psychic ability is you have to be a Psyker. He IS a Psyker and they as a unit ARE Psykers... Brother hood of Psykers = 1 Psyker... a character with PSYKER in his special rules = 1 Psyker... 1 Psyker + 1 Psyker = 2 Abilities. No where in any book of any kind does it say you have to be an independent character to use a Psychic power.

[Gentlemanloser]

Mordrak and his unit count as a single Psyker, due to the Brotherhood rule.

 

As Mordrak is an upgrade Character in the unit, he falls uners the Units Brotherhood rule.

 

As such, the unit may only use a single Power per turn.

 

Mordrak *cannot* use a Power seperate to his Ghost Knights.

 

(In turn, this also means that he uses the Brotherhood rules for activating his NDH, and not the single Force Weapon wound that normal ICs use)

[DeepDarkSecret]

He is NOT an upgrade character. He does NOT have the brotherhood of psykers special rule so it does NOT apply to him. He IS a psyker and CAN use his own psychic ability. You can just assume models have special rules when they dont. Special rules are in their special rules text. If it's not there they don't have it. He's not an upgrade character because no where in his entry is he upgraded from crap. He's a character with a retinue in a game that's trying to get rid of retinues.

 

If you don't have the brotherhood special rule it can't apply to you.

[Gentlemanloser]

He is an upgrade character when taken with a unit of Ghost Knights.

 

It's there in his 'Ghostly Bodyguard' rule.

 

with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character

 

His Psyker Mastery Level is only used when he's a single mini unit in his own right. When he hasn't been bought any Ghost Knights, or they are all killed.

 

When he is an upgrade character in a unit of Ghost Knights, he is bound by thier Brotherhood rule and the *unit* can only use 1 Power per turn.

[DeepDarkSecret]

Okay I didn't see the upgrade part in there, though he still doesn't have the Brotherhood special rule so still does not use it. You play how you want at your store but there's no way that is correct because no where does it say his mastery level is only used when he's on his own. No where does it say that when he is an "upgrade character" he is bound by brotherhood. No where does it say you have to be an IC to use your own powers. And nowhere does it say he and his squad can only use one power total a turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

Psyker Mastery Levels applies to Characters. As part of a unit, he no longer uses his PML, but uses the Units BoP rule instead.

 

how many psychic powers a character can use each turn

 

A unit of Ghost Knights can only use 1 Power per turn, they may not use a power themselves through BoP and Mordraks PML.

 

A Grey Knight unit can use one Psychic Power per turn

 

Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit

[DeepDarkSecret]

You are just making up your own rules lol.You're using things out of context.this is the last time I'm going to say this but apparently you're not reading it. He does not have the brotherhood special rule therefore does not follow it's restrictions he is however his own psyker and benefits from those special rules. No where in any rule book for this game does it say you have to be independent to use your own psychic powers. And no where does it say he gains the brotherhood special rule. It's not a universal special rule that gets applied to units that are a part of the unit, it does not say it in his or the ghosts special rules which means it does not happen.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

You are just making up your own rules lol.You're using things out of context.this is the last time I'm going to say this but apparently you're not reading it. He does not have the brotherhood special rule therefore does not follow it's restrictions he is however his own psyker and benefits from those special rules. No where in any rule book for this game does it say you have to be independent to use your own psychic powers. And no where does it say he gains the brotherhood special rule. It's not a universal special rule that gets applied to units that are a part of the unit, it does not say it in his or the ghosts special rules which means it does not happen.

 

For the love of god, he is not an I.C, he is a part of the unit. No powers of his own. Deal.

[DeepDarkSecret]

For the love of god where does it say you have to be an IC to use yor own powers???

[number6]

This is getting out of hand, people. I will nuke this topic if you can't keep your heads and discuss in a calm, adult manner. This back-and-forth sniping is not allowed.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Pskyer Mastery Levels rule. I quoted it above.

 

If you note int he 'dex, every Unit Type: Infantry (Character) unit gets a PML (if a Psyker). Every Unit Type: Infantry unit gets BoP (if a Psyker).

 

Mordraks army list entry gives him a PML as he's Unit Type: Infantry (Character). He *loses* this and become Unit Type: Infantry when joined by a 'Ghostly Bodyguard', as per it's rule.

 

I'm not making anything up.

 

With Ghost Knights, it's part of a unit with BoP, and follows that rule. When alone, he's a Charcater with a PML(1).

[Abaddonshand]

What about Thawn? He is an upgrade character, yet he has psychic mastery level two.

 

The way I see it, there is a gulf between brotherhood of psyker units and any character units with a psychic mastery level. Certain psychic powers cross this gulf, such as hammerhand, might of Titan and the quickening, all of which state they apply to the squad and any characters, meaning that if Thawn were to cast hammerhand, he and his squad benefit from it, freeing the squad to activate their force weapons, and as he is level two to activate his own force weapon separately in this example.

 

Mordrak works the same way I think, although of course he only has level 1.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thrawns PML2 is used when he is a isngle unit in his own right, just like Mordrak (this can happen when he's killed, and ressurects on his own).

 

When he's in a unit, he's still bound by BoP.