Hammerhand

[grimz]

Putting aside Ad hominem attacks regarding rules lawyering, take a look at this thread from Daka:

 

Locally we have a guy that's spreading the doctrine of the hammerhand.

 

That is, join a mastery level 2 independent character to a squad of grey knights. Have the grey knights cast hammerhand, then have the grand master or special character cast hammerhand twice more.

 

We've been combing the rulebooks for something to say he can't do this, but we're coming up blank. People have shown that "might of titan" specifically says it can be combined with hammerhand - but nothing says hammerhand can't be combined with itself. Had the wording of the spell been "strikes at strength 5" or "the unit gains the 'hammerhand' ability", which you'd then look up and find that having "hammerhand" means you have +1 strength - that would also have been fine, because no matter how many times you used the power, the effect would be to "have hammerhand" and thus only ever have +1 strength. Unfortunately the spell just says "if cast, you get +1 strength". Heck technically you can cast Might of Titan twice for 3d6 penetration, too!

 

I've found where you can't use the same psychic shooting attack twice, but nothing that says you can't use the same psychic power twice. I've seen Eldrad's entry, where he specifically mentions he's able to use the same power twice in the same turn [but now that I think about it, I wonder why he can't use the same power three times?]

 

I'd appreciate any help I can get. I threw two defilers, a dreadnought, and two daemon princes at a squad of paladins. They destroyed every last one of them at initiative 6, because they were all striking at strength 7 and Draigo was S8. It's getting ridiculous.

 

And don't get me started on his theories that Purgation Squads can fire twice, once by just shooting and then by casting Astral Aim, which tells you to shoot as well.

 

Something I never considered, I was definitely in the camp of HH only giving +1 STR even if cast multiple times. Even if it *does* stack I don't think it will make much difference really, my purifier squad is still going to wipe you out B)

 

That said, this quote is rather poignant:

 

And it becomes a completely circular argument because there's no general rule in 40K saying whether or not multiple copies of the same effect stack.

 

Stipulate that a give model has successfully cast Hammerhand twice in the same turn. And then what?

 

It's intuitively obvious that the identical effects would add together.

It's intuitively obvious that the identical effects would NOT add together.

 

Mix in various posters substituting variants for "intuitively obvious", and repeat for 20 pages of argument.

[DeathKorpsman]

The Pskyer Mastery Levels rule. I quoted it above.

 

If you note int he 'dex, every Unit Type: Infantry (Character) unit gets a PML (if a Psyker). Every Unit Type: Infantry unit gets BoP (if a Psyker).

 

Mordraks army list entry gives him a PML as he's Unit Type: Infantry (Character). He *loses* this and become Unit Type: Infantry when joined by a 'Ghostly Bodyguard', as per it's rule.

 

I'm not making anything up.

 

With Ghost Knights, it's part of a unit with BoP, and follows that rule. When alone, he's a Charcater with a PML(1).

The bold bit is the part that doesn't sit with me. The bodyguard rule doesn't say he loses anything. The BRB doesn't say an upgrade character loses anything. His type is not noted as changing anywhere. A model with the Infantry (character) type does not have to be an independent character to have the Infantry (character) unit type. Clearly this is so, since Crowe has that unit type but is not an IC. Since neither Mordrak's or Thawn's entry say they lose their type, they still act using the Mastery rules. BoP and Mastery aren't mutually exclusive. The unit casts a power with a random model (since they don't have a Justicar or Knight) and the upgrade character casts as many powers as they have mastery levels. The unit has cast one power. The character has cast up to his Mastery. Both rules are satisfied.

 

To the OP, I wouldn't play a rule in a way that it doesn't say it can be played. That's my interpretation and if it gets FAQ'd all the better. Hammerhand specifically stacks with MoT, which is clearly spelled out. That isn't precedent to say Hammerhand stacks with Hammerhand. I can see the desire to make GK's more killy in CC, but that isn't where the list seems to shine. The Purgation Squad firing twice thing is kinda funny, but since infantry models can only shoot once per turn I don't think it is a workable interpretation. If the power specifically said the squad gets to ignore normal shooting restrictions for number of shooting attempts per turn that would be one thing, but since it doesn't the squad's shooting is still bound by the normal rules.

[Grey Mage]

Anyone check the psychic powers section?

 

(But still cannot use the same power twice in a turn.)

 

A Psyker can only use one power per turn. A second mastery allows them to cast two psychic powers per turn- not to cast the same power twice. Why? Because it says two powers- having two girlfriends in the last year is different from dating the same girl twice in a year.

 

As for hammerhand stacking, its possible either way. There is no explicit rule saying a psychic power cant stack with itself, but I find the precedent given by furious charge is very telling.

 

As for Falchions- I would note that the entry is "Nemesis Falchions". Note the plural. A single falchion has no rules, they are only purchased in multiples- and the rule for multiple falchions is they get +1 A. This to me says theyre doing what GW often does- quoting core rules in their codices.

 

Edit: spelling... *sighs* is a pain.

[CheezeFezt]

Anyone check the psychic powers section?

 

(But still cannot use the same power twice in a turn.)

 

A Psyker can only use one power per turn. A second mastery allows them to cast two psychic powers per turn- not to cast the same power twice. Why? Because it says two powers- having two girlfriends in the last year is different from dating the same girl twice in a year.

 

BRB quote is out of context. The quote refers to shooting psychic power.

 

There are instances in other codex where psyker may cast the same power more than once. There are also instances in other codex where psyker may not cast the same power more than once even if they may cast multiple power. In all cases, these were explicitly spelled out.

 

Codex: GK, unfortunately, doesn't spell it out. BRB first half of the rules on psychic doesn't say anything being able to cast the same power twice or not. The only restriction is the psychic shooting power. So flip a coin.

 

As for hammerhand stacking, its possible either way. There is no explicit rule saying a psychic power cant stack with itself, but I find the precedent given by furious charge is very telling.

 

Fantasy ruling is if it say "+1 STR", then it's stackable. If it say "STR +1", then it's not. I don't know where this "rule by permission" came about (eg unless the rules allow, it's not allowed). 40k doesn't have any such ruling and little guidance.

 

What's the precedent given by furious charge? Are you referring to if an IC with FC joins a unit with FC if they stacks?

 

My personal take is they don't stack. But don't have any argument for nor against.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Anyone check the psychic powers section?

 

(But still cannot use the same power twice in a turn.)

 

A Psyker can only use one power per turn. A second mastery allows them to cast two psychic powers per turn- not to cast the same power twice. Why? Because it says two powers- having two girlfriends in the last year is different from dating the same girl twice in a year.

 

BRB quote is out of context. The quote refers to shooting psychic power.

 

There are instances in other codex where psyker may cast the same power more than once. There are also instances in other codex where psyker may not cast the same power more than once even if they may cast multiple power. In all cases, these were explicitly spelled out.

 

Codex: GK, unfortunately, doesn't spell it out. BRB first half of the rules on psychic doesn't say anything being able to cast the same power twice or not. The only restriction is the psychic shooting power. So flip a coin.

 

As for hammerhand stacking, its possible either way. There is no explicit rule saying a psychic power cant stack with itself, but I find the precedent given by furious charge is very telling.

 

Fantasy ruling is if it say "+1 STR", then it's stackable. If it say "STR +1", then it's not. I don't know where this "rule by permission" came about (eg unless the rules allow, it's not allowed). 40k doesn't have any such ruling and little guidance.

 

What's the precedent given by furious charge? Are you referring to if an IC with FC joins a unit with FC if they stacks?

 

My personal take is they don't stack. But don't have any argument for nor against.

 

 

The precedent would be blood angels, as they can have nine priets and two novitates within range of a single unit. Eeer, highly unlikely, but they can.

[CheezeFezt]

The precedent would be blood angels, as they can have nine priets and two novitates within range of a single unit. Eeer, highly unlikely, but they can.

 

Ah. Each priest confer furious charge to unit with 6". 9 priests therefore confer 9 furious charge. Does 9 furious charge = +9 STR/INIT. FAQ as of Dec 2010 doesn't have that question :(

 

There is one case of something being cumulative even though not spelled out. Mark of Nugle on Bike is +2 T. So the rule by permission is bogus. It's impossible to write permission for rules to interact with rules that haven't been written yet (eg future codex).

 

Ahriman can use the same non-shooting power more than once. Chaos Marine FAQ.

 

Space Wolves with 2 frost axe do not stack (eg only get +1 to STR). SW FAQ.

 

Tyranid 2 Tyrant does not stack for reserve roll. Tyrand + Lictor stack for reserve roll. 'Nid FAQ.

 

Imperial Guard 2 astropath/officer of the fleet do not stack for +1/-1 reserve roll. IG FAQ.

 

Curiously, 2 Autarch do stack for reserve roll (may choose 0, +1, or +2 reserve roll). Don't know the exact wording of Autarch to determine why this is different than 'nid/IG. Eldar FAQ.

 

 

 

I say the Ahriman FAQ implies GK may use the same non-shooting power more than once.

 

Don't know if the SW FAW is enough to say 2 hammerhand doesn't stack. Hammerhand is a psychic power vs SW wargear. Also, the IG/'nid implies same rule don't stack. The chaos marine & 'nid implies different rules do stack.

 

Don't know if these are enough to generalize to same rule don't stack, different rule do stack. So hammerhand don't stack with itself.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Anyone check the psychic powers section?

 

(But still cannot use the same power twice in a turn.)

 

A Psyker can only use one power per turn.

 

Not that I want to prolong this ridiculous thread even more, but GM, I am really disappointed with the quote mining here. We should strive for clarity. Quoting completely out of context is the opposite of that.

 

 

Otherwise, what grimz quoted from solkan on dakka should really, really kill this thread, shouldn't it? Or do people just like to go around in circles?

[CheezeFezt]

Not that I want to prolong this ridiculous thread even more, but GM, I am really disappointed with the quote mining here. We should strive for clarity. Quoting completely out of context is the opposite of that.

 

 

Otherwise, what grimz quoted from solkan on dakka should really, really kill this thread, shouldn't it? Or do people just like to go around in circles?

 

Do we have a consensus somewhat?

 

Would most agree you can cast the same non-shooting psychic power more than once as per Ahriman FAQ?

 

Would most agree same rules don't stack (eg multiple Hammerhand)?

 

Would most agree different rules stack even if it doesn't explicitly say so (eg furious charge from enemy Crowe + Hammerhand)?

 

I know, it got nothing to do with RAW since there are no rules written addressing any of these. More to do with precedent set by various FAQ and they seem reasonable enough to play with.

 

What's the quote from grimz?

[Grey Mage]

Anyone check the psychic powers section?

 

(But still cannot use the same power twice in a turn.)

 

A Psyker can only use one power per turn.

 

Not that I want to prolong this ridiculous thread even more, but GM, I am really disappointed with the quote mining here. We should strive for clarity. Quoting completely out of context is the opposite of that.

 

 

Otherwise, what grimz quoted from solkan on dakka should really, really kill this thread, shouldn't it? Or do people just like to go around in circles?

Its not out of context, Ive quoted it because it shows intent and helps clarify the entirety of the psyker rules. Saying it isnt related to anything but shooting psychic powers is ludicrous- lets look closer at the context, since theres the complaint:

 

However if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can replace the firing of any of the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic shooting attack (But still cannot use the same power twice in a turn.).

 

Now, why is this parenthetical clarification here? To remind people of what the norm is- and its conveniently stated on the same page:

 

Psyker may use a single psychic power per player turn.

(But still cannot use the same power twice in a turn.)

Codex: Grey Knights uses Mastery Levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn.

 

Note, if you will, that it is the number of powers you can use in each case that is being referenced. The second quote on pg. 50 of the brb reinforces the first sentence- wich states you can use a single power. The BRB also notes that 'exceptions will be explicitly stated in the codexs'.

 

Codex:GK allows you to use 2, or even 3 powers per turn. It doesnt explicitly say you may use them twice. Having two of the same thing isnt the same as having two different things, and the rules only provide context for you to have two different things.

 

This is further reinforced by the fact that the game designers have seen fit to on several occasions explicitly state that a model is allowed to cast the same power twice in a turn. Why would this be needed if it was the norm? Simple- it wouldnt. The simple fact is that the number of powers your allowed to use has nothing to do with the number of times your allowed to use them.

 

Edit: Ah, I see someone noticed the Ahriman FAQ- thats cool, but its also irrelevant.

 

Ahriman's rules say hes allowed to make three psychic tests per turn. This is different than being able to use three psychic powers per turn.