Have Chaos Space Marines gone 2-D?

[Zincite]

Before we start, please note I don't have the 3.5 Ed Chaos codex. What I do have is the 3rd Ed one, about 12 codexs, and a reasonable amount of BL knowledge. Hopefully this hasn't been addressed before, and I hope it goes without saying that I'm not trolling. :P

 

So, I dug up one of my old Chaos Space Marines yesterday, and decided to paint him up in the old Alpha Legion colors. As I was flipping through the 4th Ed codex looking for the color scheme, something occurred to me. I think it's been nagging at me for a while now;

 

Have Chaos Space Marines gone 2-D?

 

Now, before you kick me in the groin, spit on my head and send me off to the other topic here ('Chaos losing it's allure?') listen to my thoughts, collected here together to confuse you even more than usual. Here we go...

 

In 3rd Ed Chaos Marines felt... Lost. They felt they had been betrayed, and this had allowed them to be corrupted. They waged war upon the false Emperor because of the urging in their souls, the voice that was never meant to be there. Evil was in their hearts, that can never be doubted. But it Wasn't their fault. It was Chaos, the Dark Gods, that corrupted them, found the chink in their souls that opened up ten millennium of heresy. There was an large element of pity when you read about them. They had taken the wrong path, and had earned a eternity of damnation for it.

 

In 4th Ed they felt... Bitter. They had felt they had been betrayed, though whether or not they had truly been was a matter lost in time. They waged war upon the False Emperor's realm 'Not through vain notions of Duty or Honor, but through a far purer purpose: hatred'. Greed, spite, glory. These are the words they lived by, that drove them forward in the names of far darker powers. 'For I know that when the end is upon us and Horus is returned, then the false Emperor shall be cast down from his sepulcher Golden Throne, and we shall take our rightful place at the side of Horus, the true Emperor of mankind.'

 

But there was still a element of pity. From the Thousand Sons that were changed to dust by a mistake of another, to the shambling Plague Marines that had been all but destroyed by promises of immortality. From the rage-filled Bezerkers, consumed by their own pride, to the decadent Emperor's children, who had received all that they wished and far, far, more.

 

 

This is the true meaning of Chaos Space Marines.

 

But now, in 5th Edition, they seem... 2-D.

 

They just seem to be evil. They fight to slaughter, and little else. It's like Games Workshop needed a 'basic' evil force, so they got rid of the Chaos Marine's feelings. Just slam some spikes on the Space Marines and there you go.

 

I feel no pity for them. They were betrayed, and they fight for the Dark Gods. Greed? Spite? Glory?

 

The words are there. The feeling is not.

 

More and more, I see Chaos Marines being used as the villains. I can't remember the last time I saw a hero being cut down by Orks, Eldar, or Tau. Why? Are these not evil enough? Is death not enough? Must you be cut down by a super-evil being to make it cool? You can see this elsewhere, the Gray Knights were 'pure'. That was all, they were good, better than normal, but not super. Now there're the most best warriors there ever was.

 

This might just be me. Perhaps that was what I felt before, and my brain re-activates it when I look again. Because I can go back to the 3rd Ed codex now and feel that again. Maybe this is just outside of the CSM codex.

 

Thoughts, opinions, criticism and outright insults are welcomed. Please, kick me as hard as you can. I welcome it. I wouldn't have put it on here if I didn't. :huh:

[minigun762]

Speaking in terms of the background, it would seem that much of what we "know" is through the eyes of the Imperium who are going to of course view the Traitor Legions as just that, traitors and heretics of the worst kind.

 

Chaos also represents the most personal type of enemy for humanity. Anyone at any time could be corrupted by Chaos, even half of the original Legions fell so who is really safe. While its easy to hate the Xeno for being different, Chaos was originally humanity but fallen, weak, corrupted etc.

[Brother Rathul]

Before we start, please note I don't have the 5th Ed Chaos codex. What I do have is the 4th Ed one, about 12 codexs, and a reasonable amount of BL knowledge. Hopefully this hasn't been addressed before, and I hope it goes without saying that I'm not trolling. :P

 

So, I dug up one of my old Chaos Space Marines yesterday, and decided to paint him up in the old Alpha Legion colors. As I was flipping through the 4th Ed codex looking for the color scheme, something occurred to me. I think it's been nagging at me for a while now;

 

Have Chaos Space Marines gone 2-D?

 

Now, before you kick me in the groin, spit on my head and send me off to the other topic here ('Chaos losing it's allure?') listen to my thoughts, collected here together to confuse you even more than usual. Here we go...

 

In 3rd Ed Chaos Marines felt... Lost. They felt they had been betrayed, and this had allowed them to be corrupted. They waged war upon the false Emperor because of the urging in their souls, the voice that was never meant to be there. Evil was in their hearts, that can never be doubted. But it Wasn't their fault. It was Chaos, the Dark Gods, that corrupted them, found the chink in their souls that opened up ten millennium of heresy. There was an large element of pity when you read about them. They had taken the wrong path, and had earned a eternity of damnation for it.

 

In 4th Ed they felt... Bitter. They had felt they had been betrayed, though whether or not they had truly been was a matter lost in time. They waged war upon the False Emperor's realm 'Not through vain notions of Duty or Honor, but through a far purer purpose: hatred'. Greed, spite, glory. These are the words they lived by, that drove them forward in the names of far darker powers. 'For I know that when the end is upon us and Horus is returned, then the false Emperor shall be cast down from his sepulcher Golden Throne, and we shall take our rightful place at the side of Horus, the true Emperor of mankind.'

 

But there was still a element of pity. From the Thousand Sons that were changed to dust by a mistake of another, to the shambling Plague Marines that had been all but destroyed by promises of immortality. From the rage-filled Bezerkers, consumed by their own pride, to the decadent Emperor's children, who had received all that they wished and far, far, more.

 

 

This is the true meaning of Chaos Space Marines.

 

But now, in 5th Edition, they seem... 2-D.

 

They just seem to be evil. They fight to slaughter, and little else. It's like Games Workshop needed a 'basic' evil force, so they got rid of the Chaos Marine's feelings. Just slam some spikes on the Space Marines and there you go.

 

I feel no pity for them. They were betrayed, and they fight for the Dark Gods. Greed? Spite? Glory?

 

The words are there. The feeling is not.

 

More and more, I see Chaos Marines being used as the villains. I can't remember the last time I saw a hero being cut down by Orks, Eldar, or Tau. Why? Are these not evil enough? Is death not enough? Must you be cut down by a super-evil being to make it cool? You can see this elsewhere, the Gray Knights were 'pure'. That was all, they were good, better than normal, but not super. Now there're the most best warriors there ever was.

 

This might just be me. Perhaps that was what I felt before, and my brain re-activates it when I look again. Because I can go back to the 4th Ed codex now and feel that again. Maybe this is just outside of the CSM codex.

 

Thoughts, opinions, criticism and outright insults are welcomed. Please, kick me as hard as you can. I welcome it. I wouldn't have put it on here if I didn't. :)

 

Yeah, I've been noticing that too. The 5th Edition codex says basically that Chaos Space Marines are so evil, it makes them stupid, and hencceforth they can't work together or in their respective legions anymore.

This sums up the point really well Link

[Shas'o R'Vre]

This sums up the point really well Link

Sir, you gain +1 Internet for referencing SRM 40,000.

[Gore-Child]

Sorry to stray off topic...5th ed CSM....the latest is 4th ed codex is it not. unless some how a new codex was realised and i didn't notice my own army getting one. it was 5th "ready" but not 5th, wasn't even relised after the 5th ed rule book. I know there was a Codex: CSM 3.5 ed....but yeah

[Lay]

Pity is for the weak.

[Zincite]

Sorry to stray off topic...5th ed CSM....the latest is 4th ed codex is it not. unless some how a new codex was realised and i didn't notice my own army getting one. it was 5th "ready" but not 5th, wasn't even relised after the 5th ed rule book. I know there was a Codex: CSM 3.5 ed....but yeah

 

Sorry, I date codexs by which edition they came out in. So the current witchhunters one would be the '4th' Ed codex, even if it's only the 2nd version of it. Confusing for everybody except myself, pretty much like my brain.

 

Brother Rathul's link was... interesting. It seemed to be two space marine sharks poking each other with sticks? Which is pretty cool in it's own way.

 

So is no one else going to kick me? Come on, doesn't this make a tempting target? Demolish my opinions. Kick my thoughts into the dust!

[caboosebe]

You sum it up basicly, so there is no use to kick your opinions.

And what can we do about it, just keep telling ourselves it ain't true, and keeping to the old Chaos ways.

We'll just have to wait till next codex

Now what was the Maya's date for the end of the world again? :D

[the jeske]

which one , they used 4 different calendars and the last one runs at in 9k something year?

[Rik Riorik]

It does get confusing :-). No one has the 5th edition Codex because the last Codex to be released was released when we were still in 4th edition. Might have been 5th ready but was still released when 4th was the edition.

 

Thus I assume what you refer to as the 4th edition and 2-D Codex is actually the 3.5 which was the second Chaos dex to be released in 3rd edition, ie the one with rules for Legions in it.

 

I dont really remember what the different codex say in terms of the background story. But Id like to make the point that new Codexes dont invalidate that which is written before just because it does not write the same thing again, or decides to write about a different aspect. The fact that the newest codex has a focus on renegades for example does not mean that renegades are what Chaos is now to the exclusion of everything else.

[Kristoff]

Sorry to stray off topic...5th ed CSM....the latest is 4th ed codex is it not. unless some how a new codex was realised and i didn't notice my own army getting one. it was 5th "ready" but not 5th, wasn't even relised after the 5th ed rule book. I know there was a Codex: CSM 3.5 ed....but yeah

 

Haven't you heard, the Chaos Bunnies in 5th Edition's Fast Attack are the most OP'd thing in the game now, but the Dreadnoughts and Spawn still suck, and no one still knows what to use Possessed for.

[Grey Mage]

The problem for me, as a person who doesnt play chaos, is alot of the new kids coming in who dont know jack or diddly about the fluff for the faction theyre playing. They dont really know anything about the legions, they think slaanesh and khorne are BFFs, and theyre pretty sure that even a SM adorned with a hundred symbols of the blood god is nothing without a standard bearer nearby. Theyve never heard of furies, and theyre pretty sure that chosen arent all that impressive, even compared to regular troops- so what kind of honor is it really?

 

Some of them seem to know something, somewhere, is lacking. The ones that truely disturb me are the ones who think the fluff fully fleshed out, and that the stories of older gamers are just a bunch of hogswash.

[the jeske]

well at least we have something to write about . If it wasnt for the "why and how is codex csm bad" the chaos forum would look like the slany one . one post per 2-3 days.

[nurglez]

problem is that the current codex is about renegades, all the stories are about renegades, and there's only a slight nod to the first legions, the ones that started the whole damn thing. Currently reading Blood Reaver, man, I love the hate these night lords have for renegades, its great to not see chaos all working together.

 

And that link was great, just dont let GW find out...

[Brother Nihm]

The problem for me, as a person who doesnt play chaos, is alot of the new kids coming in who dont know jack or diddly about the fluff for the faction theyre playing. They dont really know anything about the legions, they think slaanesh and khorne are BFFs, and theyre pretty sure that even a SM adorned with a hundred symbols of the blood god is nothing without a standard bearer nearby. Theyve never heard of furies, and theyre pretty sure that chosen arent all that impressive, even compared to regular troops- so what kind of honor is it really?

 

Some of them seem to know something, somewhere, is lacking. The ones that truely disturb me are the ones who think the fluff fully fleshed out, and that the stories of older gamers are just a bunch of hogswash.

Oh man, that just summed up everything about how I feel.

For me that also includes the new players who has only read Soul Hunter etc.

[caboosebe]

The problem for me, as a person who doesnt play chaos, is alot of the new kids coming in who dont know jack or diddly about the fluff for the faction theyre playing. They dont really know anything about the legions, they think slaanesh and khorne are BFFs, and theyre pretty sure that even a SM adorned with a hundred symbols of the blood god is nothing without a standard bearer nearby. Theyve never heard of furies, and theyre pretty sure that chosen arent all that impressive, even compared to regular troops- so what kind of honor is it really?

 

Some of them seem to know something, somewhere, is lacking. The ones that truely disturb me are the ones who think the fluff fully fleshed out, and that the stories of older gamers are just a bunch of hogswash.

 

I know Khorne and Slaanesh aren't the best of friends. But is it so wrong to want to model both legions, read every Chaos book you can get your hands on, even if one is about Khorne, the other about Word Bearers, etc etc? Ok, when I make a list, I never put Slaanesh and Khorne together, or any other God (except that list I use against the 'only-winning-is-fun-players). But some people just like Chaos in a way that they want to model and paint every Legion.

If you only use those in an apocalypse, and the small list you keep mono-god, you can't hate those players so much, now can you?

[the jeske]

But some people just like Chaos in a way that they want to model and paint every Legion.

now imagine a sm player tells you he likes SW and GK and he is using squads from both armies at the same time in the same list . how much sense would that make ? ok it would make more sense the mixing khorn and slanesh as mixing SW and GK would actualy make a good list.

 

+ most people play BL anyway because playing mono lists or trying to do old undivded list makes little sense at all . Bad lists , fewer options then before etc etc.

 

My problem [and probably mages too] is that a lot of the new players think that happy chaos family is what always has been there and that puting DP/pms/oblits in to a list and telling "I play AL" is ok and there is nothing wrong about it.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

I've noticed the fluff change too through reading the HH books. What was once seen as "everyones choice for more power than the emperor was willing to allow them, lead them to the dark gods" is now "this is a sad story of how they were corrupted, manipulated and deceived by the dark gods". Thinking back through the Heresy books, Horus, Fulgrim, Magnus so far have been deceived and feel foolish for their first decision. (trying to avoid mass spoilers for those who haven't read 4 year old books).

 

Where once, Chaos was a term for evil encarnate and rebellion against the Emperor, their father and their brothers, it is now one of pity.

[caboosebe]

My problem [and probably mages too] is that a lot of the new players think that happy chaos family is what always has been there and that puting DP/pms/oblits in to a list and telling "I play AL" is ok and there is nothing wrong about it.

Yeah, I can understand that, but what about the people who just model and paint every legion, and when playing use a mono-legion fluff list? I understand your feelings about 'fluff-benders', but what about the people who paint and model an all AL-list - all WE-list etc?

I'm not defending the benders, but some people just like more then one legion, and some are crazy enough to paint them all. Why do you think I want 5 Daemon princes if I can only put 2 on the board :D

I'm just saying, a lot of the newer players do indeed throw Chaos together as a big family, but there are also those who make it a psycho family that is ready to kill the others of his family.

[Walter Payton]

I wouldn't say that Chaos has gone 2D as such, but the fluff has become more and more scattered, in contrast to the newer codexes.

 

The Chaos 'dex came when GW was trying to make toned-down, spartan codexes. That's why there is the huge difference between 3.5 ed and 5ed. Thus, eveything has been pared down. There is less scope for fluffy units, less scope for the kind of awesome heroes, and indeed the structure of the whole codex has changed; now there is more background on each unit per page.

 

What people have to remember is that the old fluff stands; all the Index Astartes articles are still as relevant now as they ever were. But the whole onus of fluff-dissemination is in the hands of BL. Thus, people who only buy the codex get the bare, bare minimum. It's a nice little moneymaking scheme; if I really want the lowdown (how they fight, what are their on the Night Lords, I kinda have to buy Soul Hunter for £7.99 (not a chore, but for other chapters not gifted with as good an author...). The IAs are bloody impossible to find, unless you want to break international copyright law, and the codex gives very little. Whereas an Imperial player can learn all he needs to know through using Darnath Lysander; they are stubborn, master siegers, heavy shock troops, and you can play them as such without compromising your chances.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Older fluff may still stand, but a lot of people don't have access to older fluff. Their first look at Chaos nowadays is of big, happy cooperating gods, so the old rivalries aren't apparent, and often ignored.

[A D-B]

My problem [and probably mages too] is that a lot of the new players think that happy chaos family is what always has been there and that puting DP/pms/oblits in to a list and telling "I play AL" is ok and there is nothing wrong about it.

Yeah, I can understand that, but what about the people who just model and paint every legion, and when playing use a mono-legion fluff list? I understand your feelings about 'fluff-benders', but what about the people who paint and model an all AL-list - all WE-list etc?

I'm not defending the benders, but some people just like more then one legion, and some are crazy enough to paint them all. Why do you think I want 5 Daemon princes if I can only put 2 on the board :angry:

I'm just saying, a lot of the newer players do indeed throw Chaos together as a big family, but there are also those who make it a psycho family that is ready to kill the others of his family.

 

I think the biggest problem is so many Chaos players' absolute inability to see what rocks in the way Chaos is now. (And note, I don't necessarily see that as their fault.) But it's sort of depressing to see so many people enslaved to the idea of Legions, Legions, Legions. Chaos is more than that now. It's still there, plus a lot more. Why isn't that allowed? Why does it have to be some bizarre and imaginary difference between Legions and Renegades? It's people applying how the tabletop game traditionally works, and sticking that to the fluff. And that's a shame. It should always be the other way 'round.

 

But I'm tired of this topic, personally. I can't be bothered to do yet another essay on it. Yeah, the lore was explained badly in the last codex. Absolutely. But it's not a matter of "The Legions are entirely broken and gone" or "Legions are best friends and all still together". It's both of those, and everything inbetween. It's been 10,000 freaking years of civil war. It's sad that one of the coolest elements of Chaos (the fact that they fight themselves so often, and the unique grudges and alliances it brings) is something that people ignore in favour of "But I want Legion rules...", and so rarely see it any other way.

 

We should be able to have the best of both worlds, and infinite choice. Instead we've got older players seeing Legions, Legions, Legions - refusing any updates - and what few updates we've had explaining the developments so badly that no one gets interested in it.

[greatcrusade08]

All models released by GW are grey..

all C:SM models are grey despite people claiming they are ultramarines

all C:CSM models are grey depsite people claiming they are black legion.

 

its down to the player to determine his own theme and fluff, i cant abide peoples complaints about the chaos dex, its really good IMO.. it allows ytou to do anything you want.. if you want a legion, paint up a legion, if you wasnt a warband paint one up.

If someones having troubles with the theme, then its a self imposed problem, it shouldnt be blamed on the dex

[caboosebe]

I think the biggest problem is so many Chaos players' absolute inability to see what rocks in the way Chaos is now. (And note, I don't necessarily see that as their fault.) But it's sort of depressing to see so many people enslaved to the idea of Legions, Legions, Legions. Chaos is more than that now. It's still there, plus a lot more. Why isn't that allowed? Why does it have to be some bizarre and imaginary difference between Legions and Renegades? It's people applying how the tabletop game traditionally works, and sticking that to the fluff. And that's a shame. It should always be the other way 'round.

 

But I'm tired of this topic, personally. I can't be bothered to do yet another essay on it. Yeah, the lore was explained badly in the last codex. Absolutely. But it's not a matter of "The Legions are entirely broken and gone" or "Legions are best friends and all still together". It's both of those, and everything inbetween. It's been 10,000 freaking years of civil war. It's sad that one of the coolest elements of Chaos (the fact that they fight themselves so often, and the unique grudges and alliances it brings) is something that people ignore in favour of "But I want Legion rules...", and so rarely see it any other way.

 

We should be able to have the best of both worlds, and infinite choice. Instead we've got older players seeing Legions, Legions, Legions - refusing any updates - and what few updates we've had explaining the developments so badly that no one gets interested in it.

 

But that is what makes it hard to be a newer player (as in less then 1.5 years). There are those that go Chaos because 'it's evil' and those that go because of the fluff.

Now those that go for the fluff, choose one legion/renegade chapter or choose multiple legions/renegade chapters because they like Chaos as fragile unity with infighting and unstable alliances.

But those players get ignored by others because of the One Legion To Rule Them All. Even if they don't mix rival Gods.

 

Am I so wrong in seeing Chaos as fighting with themselves unless an enemy comes by, they join, kill the enemy, try to plot that the 'ally' dies in some 'accident' and then resume the internal fighting?

Do I completly missunderstand it?

[A D-B]

Am I so wrong in seeing Chaos as fighting with themselves unless an enemy comes by, they join, kill the enemy, try to plot that the 'ally' dies in some 'accident' and then resume the internal fighting?

Do I completly missunderstand it?

 

That's exactly it. But with several hundred thousand Chaos Marines, over 10,000 years, in countless star systems within a realm of literal Hell... Countless warbands, with countless differences in ethos, wargear, homeworlds, fleets and organisation...

 

It's all about grudges and shifting alliances, through 10,000 years of civil war. That should be fascinating and amazing. It's not coming across that way, though.