Have Chaos Space Marines gone 2-D?

[caboosebe]

It's all about grudges and shifting alliances, through 10,000 years of civil war. That should be fascinating and amazing. It's not coming across that way, though.

But would you say that's more because of how the current codex is written and people adopting that, or more because people favor 1 Legion?

[Zincite]

I'm not complaining about the codex. I'm not complaining about the legion/renegade thing. I don't play chaos. I don't have the codex, I haven't read it. I don't blame anything in particular. I don't blame anything at all. I asked to see what people thought.

 

To be honest, my first post might have seemed a bit whiny, I didn't intended it to be, I meant for this to be a discussion. Have Chaos Marines been reduced to slathering brutes? That was what I meant to say.

 

I think they deserve to be more than just cannon fodder Even if their only purpose is to be shot to pieces by Tau, I would like them to have some character. More than just 'I'm evil'.

 

Again, please, don't take this as a whine. I meant it to be a discussion, not a whiny-lets-kill-Games-Workshop thread. We have them already. (And I don't think there're all a bad thing).

;)

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

I'm not complaining about the codex. I'm not complaining about the legion/renegade thing. I don't play chaos. I don't have the codex, I haven't read it. I don't blame anything in particular. I don't blame anything at all. I asked to see what people thought.

 

To be honest, my first post might have seemed a bit whiny, I didn't intended it to be, I meant for this to be a discussion. Have Chaos Marines been reduced to slathering brutes? That was what I meant to say.

 

I think they deserve to be more than just cannon fodder Even if their only purpose is to be shot to pieces by Tau, I would like them to have some character. More than just 'I'm evil'.

 

I think you're right about this. They have become characature bad guys, akin to war film "nazis" and Bond bad guys. The character is diminished and faded, and albeit that the codex itself has limited gameplay and army options in comparison to all of the other goodies other armies are getting. (which I understand is a secondary arguement that you weren't focusing on at all).

 

I think that, as I put in my last post on here, there is something about the current fluff that screams "pity" rather than "evil".

[Kristoff]

I think the biggest problem is so many Chaos players' absolute inability to see what rocks in the way Chaos is now. (And note, I don't necessarily see that as their fault.) But it's sort of depressing to see so many people enslaved to the idea of Legions, Legions, Legions. Chaos is more than that now. It's still there, plus a lot more. Why isn't that allowed? Why does it have to be some bizarre and imaginary difference between Legions and Renegades? It's people applying how the tabletop game traditionally works, and sticking that to the fluff. And that's a shame. It should always be the other way 'round.

 

But I'm tired of this topic, personally. I can't be bothered to do yet another essay on it. Yeah, the lore was explained badly in the last codex. Absolutely. But it's not a matter of "The Legions are entirely broken and gone" or "Legions are best friends and all still together". It's both of those, and everything inbetween. It's been 10,000 freaking years of civil war. It's sad that one of the coolest elements of Chaos (the fact that they fight themselves so often, and the unique grudges and alliances it brings) is something that people ignore in favour of "But I want Legion rules...", and so rarely see it any other way.

 

We should be able to have the best of both worlds, and infinite choice. Instead we've got older players seeing Legions, Legions, Legions - refusing any updates - and what few updates we've had explaining the developments so badly that no one gets interested in it.

 

I think part of the problem that you're describing A D-B, is that up until the 4th Edition codex, you could run warbands/renegades/legions as your heart desired. The fluff was there and the rules were there.

 

Now, while it's great that they brought the renegade concept up to the fore, and did a decent job on the fluff with it and reflecting a lot of it in the rules, those who loved the legions were left holding an army that they do not have rules for to play the way they used to. While things will always change, this one left a lot of people feeling like they were left out in the cold. It got even worse when the Space Marines were released and had a lot of the type of character that the Chaos Marine codex lacked, and I won't even get started on the Puppies and Blood-suckers.

 

To me there are 3 parts of this game: The Story, The Game, The Modeling. The modeling never left, and, if anything, there are more options than ever (thanks to Forgeworld and Fantasy support). The Game became stale for many because either their army began to not put up as good a fight as the newer codices or, in the cases of many of the "Return Legions" crowd, they can't put the Story on the table and into the Game with their models like they used to. The Story is still there, but it's hidden in the back rooms where the Game won't see it (for now), almost like a grandma or old uncle that always embarrasses company when let out of their room.

 

The Chaos force I'm building isn't a Legion, it's a portion of a Cursed Chapter that went renegade, but I find some difficulties with the lack of salt in this codex.

 

I'm not complaining about the codex. I'm not complaining about the legion/renegade thing. I don't play chaos. I don't have the codex, I haven't read it. I don't blame anything in particular. I don't blame anything at all. I asked to see what people thought.

 

To be honest, my first post might have seemed a bit whiny, I didn't intended it to be, I meant for this to be a discussion. Have Chaos Marines been reduced to slathering brutes? That was what I meant to say.

 

I think they deserve to be more than just cannon fodder Even if their only purpose is to be shot to pieces by Tau, I would like them to have some character. More than just 'I'm evil'.

 

I think you're right about this. They have become characature bad guys, akin to war film "nazis" and Bond bad guys. The character is diminished and faded, and albeit that the codex itself has limited gameplay and army options in comparison to all of the other goodies other armies are getting. (which I understand is a secondary arguement that you weren't focusing on at all).

 

I think that, as I put in my last post on here, there is something about the current fluff that screams "pity" rather than "evil".

 

Story is as much what you put into as what you get out of it, but it doesn't help when new players are given so little to go on, or that so much that has been said already seems cliche to a jaded or experienced crowd.

[maverike_prime]

Sorry to stray off topic...5th ed CSM....the latest is 4th ed codex is it not. unless some how a new codex was realised and i didn't notice my own army getting one. it was 5th "ready" but not 5th, wasn't even relised after the 5th ed rule book. I know there was a Codex: CSM 3.5 ed....but yeah

 

Sorry, I date codexs by which edition they came out in. So the current witchhunters one would be the '4th' Ed codex, even if it's only the 2nd version of it. Confusing for everybody except myself, pretty much like my brain.

 

Fair 'nuff. But by that logic, we're still talking about the 4th edition codex. The current CSM codex came out before 5th edition. It was intended to be the first real 5th edition style codex, before they realized that style was a bad idea.

 

All models released by GW are grey..

all C:SM models are grey despite people claiming they are ultramarines

all C:CSM models are grey depsite people claiming they are black legion.

 

its down to the player to determine his own theme and fluff, i cant abide peoples complaints about the chaos dex, its really good IMO.. it allows ytou to do anything you want.. if you want a legion, paint up a legion, if you wasnt a warband paint one up.

If someones having troubles with the theme, then its a self imposed problem, it shouldnt be blamed on the dex

 

 

But that's the problem with it. Vanilla Marines get 4 generic, and totally separate, HQ choices. A Chaplin is a Chaplin, a Librarian is a librarian, a Captain is a captain and a Chapter Master is a chapter master. They all have their strengths and they're all viable for taking if your army works toward their strengths. The fluff in the codex supports the reasons for the stat lines and the stats are in turn backed up by extra goodies for the commander (Psychic powers for the Librarian, Iron Halo for the Captain, Orbital bombdardment for the Chapter master, and Litanies for the Chappy). Chaos... yeah we get a lord, a sorcorer, and a Daemon prince, and only 2 of them realistically viable to take. The Scorceror is over priced for what he can do, and how long he can do it and the fact that the Daemon prince can do all of it better, for a better price with better survivability anyway. Mean while we get a lord. Who is always a lord, no matter what you choose to call it. You're lord with a lightning claws and the mark of khorne is going to get 7 attacks that ignore saving throws weather you call him a Chaos Lord, a Dark Apostle, a World Eaters Carrion Lord, or a Nurgle death Mongor. Yet, the fluff talks about each of those as distinctly seperate from each other. The fluff in the 3.5 codex did a pretty good job of illustrating the idea that the traitors felt that they had infact been betrayed and thus were justified in doing what they did (Horus was out there leading the great crusade while the Emperor sat at home drinking tea, Magnus was able to warn the Emperor about Horus' betrayal and inturn he got to watch his world be torn apart and his legion being slaughtered, Angron was kidnapped by the Emperor and was forced to abandon his comrades and so always hated the emperor for that blight on his honor. ect ect). Now in the 4th edition codex "Hey, I've been out here for 10 years. I'm tired of killing Tyranids. Piss off. I quit. Oh and I claim this world as mine" and we get space wolves who turned traitor because they didn't want to die and in turn killed their brothers (Since when do Space Wolves fear death?). So yeah... the back ground has become very.... not even 2-d. Just... not as enticing as it once was. Add to that the so-so rules that we have with Chaos Marines now and yeah. Chaos Marines have really become 2-d.

[Candleshoes]

It's all about grudges and shifting alliances, through 10,000 years of civil war. That should be fascinating and amazing. It's not coming across that way, though.

But would you say that's more because of how the current codex is written and people adopting that, or more because people favor 1 Legion?

 

Though there is something to be said with the new direction of Warbands with as many possibilities as the user wants (ultimate creativity in a DIY friendly dex), there is an equal side to the coin, in that there are just as many Chaos players who want to adhere to some form of limited, pre-determined structure for the traditional and history driven veterans (ie:Legions).

 

Not everyone likes to stick to some pre-conceived notions and want the room to be creative with their version of chaos, and some want the opposite, in limits to units or some representation that makes your list a refection of your army choice. There are pro's and con's to both and time will tell what direction the new book will take.

 

I agree with the first part of the quote, that chaos should be (and is) fascinating and amazing, and has some of the richest background around. The literature over the last 4 years has only increased it. Unfortunately, this has bled the "30k mantra" into the majority of people's minds in regards to how 40k chaos operates, and getting the "warband and shifting alliances" point across to people will not work as well as it should.

[Brother Ambroz]

Sorry to stray off topic...5th ed CSM....the latest is 4th ed codex is it not. unless some how a new codex was realised and i didn't notice my own army getting one. it was 5th "ready" but not 5th, wasn't even relised after the 5th ed rule book. I know there was a Codex: CSM 3.5 ed....but yeah

 

Sorry, I date codexs by which edition they came out in. So the current witchhunters one would be the '4th' Ed codex, even if it's only the 2nd version of it. Confusing for everybody except myself, pretty much like my brain.

 

Fair 'nuff. But by that logic, we're still talking about the 4th edition codex. The current CSM codex came out before 5th edition. It was intended to be the first real 5th edition style codex, before they realized that style was a bad idea.

 

All models released by GW are grey..

all C:SM models are grey despite people claiming they are ultramarines

all C:CSM models are grey depsite people claiming they are black legion.

 

its down to the player to determine his own theme and fluff, i cant abide peoples complaints about the chaos dex, its really good IMO.. it allows ytou to do anything you want.. if you want a legion, paint up a legion, if you wasnt a warband paint one up.

If someones having troubles with the theme, then its a self imposed problem, it shouldnt be blamed on the dex

 

 

But that's the problem with it. Vanilla Marines get 4 generic, and totally separate, HQ choices. A Chaplin is a Chaplin, a Librarian is a librarian, a Captain is a captain and a Chapter Master is a chapter master. They all have their strengths and they're all viable for taking if your army works toward their strengths. The fluff in the codex supports the reasons for the stat lines and the stats are in turn backed up by extra goodies for the commander (Psychic powers for the Librarian, Iron Halo for the Captain, Orbital bombdardment for the Chapter master, and Litanies for the Chappy). Chaos... yeah we get a lord, a sorcorer, and a Daemon prince, and only 2 of them realistically viable to take. The Scorceror is over priced for what he can do, and how long he can do it and the fact that the Daemon prince can do all of it better, for a better price with better survivability anyway. Mean while we get a lord. Who is always a lord, no matter what you choose to call it. You're lord with a lightning claws and the mark of khorne is going to get 7 attacks that ignore saving throws weather you call him a Chaos Lord, a Dark Apostle, a World Eaters Carrion Lord, or a Nurgle death Mongor. Yet, the fluff talks about each of those as distinctly seperate from each other. The fluff in the 3.5 codex did a pretty good job of illustrating the idea that the traitors felt that they had infact been betrayed and thus were justified in doing what they did (Horus was out there leading the great crusade while the Emperor sat at home drinking tea, Magnus was able to warn the Emperor about Horus' betrayal and inturn he got to watch his world be torn apart and his legion being slaughtered, Angron was kidnapped by the Emperor and was forced to abandon his comrades and so always hated the emperor for that blight on his honor. ect ect). Now in the 4th edition codex "Hey, I've been out here for 10 years. I'm tired of killing Tyranids. Piss off. I quit. Oh and I claim this world as mine" and we get space wolves who turned traitor because they didn't want to die and in turn killed their brothers (Since when do Space Wolves fear death?). So yeah... the back ground has become very.... not even 2-d. Just... not as enticing as it once was. Add to that the so-so rules that we have with Chaos Marines now and yeah. Chaos Marines have really become 2-d.

 

 

You completely sum up the way I feel about our current dex. Yes it is viable if you want to play an army of renegades or newly recruited marines, but if you want to play as one of the legions it's just terrible. Does it make any sense for a daemon prince who is anywhere from 150-200 pts a piece to have almost identical stats to the dreadknight (for like 50 less points) but the dreadknight has 3-4 rules/weapon upgrades that make it far superior in every aspect except mobility? We all agree our fluff sucks in this current dex, which is why I use the former dex and the novels to make my current armies fluff. Really what we need is just a new codex, but that'll still be a ways off in the making most likely.

[Walter Payton]

Older fluff may still stand, but a lot of people don't have access to older fluff. Their first look at Chaos nowadays is of big, happy cooperating gods, so the old rivalries aren't apparent, and often ignored.

 

Hence the second part of my post, pointing out that the IAs are bloody impossible to source.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Am I so wrong in seeing Chaos as fighting with themselves unless an enemy comes by, they join, kill the enemy, try to plot that the 'ally' dies in some 'accident' and then resume the internal fighting?

Do I completly missunderstand it?

 

That's exactly it. But with several hundred thousand Chaos Marines, over 10,000 years, in countless star systems within a realm of literal Hell... Countless warbands, with countless differences in ethos, wargear, homeworlds, fleets and organisation...

 

It's all about grudges and shifting alliances, through 10,000 years of civil war. That should be fascinating and amazing. It's not coming across that way, though.

 

A D-B, please help in the next Chaos codex. I gotta admit, I used to think along the divides of the "Legion/renegade" lines, but now I've completely changed my opinion. As I've said on many another thread, one of the things I've loved about this codex is it frees people from the "want to play a Khornate warband? Well, this is the World Eaters, your Khornate Marines are exactly like them, no questions!" mentality of the previous codex. Before, if you wanted to go Tzeentch, it was Thousand Sons or nothing. Now, you can have "Nurgle" Rubrics, or Emperors Children driven into a fragile alliance with the World Eaters because fighting each other will lead to their mutual annihilation.

 

My only real complaint is that Chaos has lost its... sense of grandeur.

 

Before, Chaos Marines were the hardened veterans of 10,000 years of war, and were the literal anti-Christ of the 40k universe. Abaddon was a name cursed a hundred times over on thousands of worlds. The Inquisition dreaded the arrival of the Primogenetor. Worlds burned as Khârn passed. Now, in this latest codex... Huron stole a Strike Cruiser. The big "aren't these guys so awesome!" story of our codex is the story of the capture of a single ship, which isn't even a battle barge or capital ship. Way to go, Huron! You stole a ship the the Imperium has hundreds more of, and which get captured or crippled fairly regularly! They could have published almost anything there, and they chose that. Orks do that a few times each decade.

 

My problem is that we got reduced from anti-christs to minor pirates.

[maverike_prime]

Am I so wrong in seeing Chaos as fighting with themselves unless an enemy comes by, they join, kill the enemy, try to plot that the 'ally' dies in some 'accident' and then resume the internal fighting?

Do I completly missunderstand it?

 

That's exactly it. But with several hundred thousand Chaos Marines, over 10,000 years, in countless star systems within a realm of literal Hell... Countless warbands, with countless differences in ethos, wargear, homeworlds, fleets and organisation...

 

It's all about grudges and shifting alliances, through 10,000 years of civil war. That should be fascinating and amazing. It's not coming across that way, though.

A D-B, please help in the next Chaos codex.

oh, A D-B working on the codex.... there's a thought, a very enticing one I must add, that I hadn't considered. What are the realistic chances of that? Who do we need to petition to get that option on the table?

 

My problem is that we got reduced from anti-christs to minor pirates.

 

And we're not even good minor pirates. I mean in the one story they talked about in the codex, half the Space Wolves rebelled, killed the other half and turned the ship over to Huron.

[greatcrusade08]

oh, A D-B working on the codex.... there's a thought, a very enticing one I must add, that I hadn't considered. What are the realistic chances of that? Who do we need to petition to get that option on the table?

 

ive always said getting BL authors to write the background in dexes would be fantastic.. as for rules i think the chaos dex will be ok.. say what you want about the recent bunch of dexes, but they are pretty much balanced in terms of rules

[A D-B]

Regarding me (or any Black Library author) getting involved in the background section of the codices... Well, I'd love to, and explaining this treads very close to "talking too much" about the company, so bear with me while I try to explain as carefully as I can.

 

In my experience, the design studio largely operates entirely independently of Black Library, and vice versa, and is entirely happy that way. Black Library, like Forge World, is empowered to create and add to the IP, but are technically separate subsidiary companies. This is stuff we all know, natch. GW high command sees it all as "canon", at least in as much as they care about that concept at all. The expression I've heard used often is that the design studio releases broad explanations, and BL and FW do "narrow, but deep slices" of certain sections of the IP, like a novel about a certain faction's rituals and customs, or an IA section showing loads and loads of detail about a certain vehicle, warband or Chapter.

 

I'd go so far as to say that on the rare occasions when X or Y author from Black Library has tried to interact with the design studio, it hasn't gone particularly well. In most cases, we're forced to go through our editors (if it happens at all), and feedback is very slow. I've seen no lack of enthusiasm and attempts to weave things more closely together from Black Library's end, (and, in fairness, I've seen plenty of authors that also don't care, one way or the other) but the design studio seems to have their own process, and it obviously works great for them. It's not surprising, either: if they let outsiders become involved, they'd have to worry about secrecy (though an NDA would surely cover that, like in any other company that uses freelancers), and they'd be essentially giving out 50% of their job, via outsourcing. That's just not something that makes sense.

 

F'rex, let's say Mat Ward emailed me to say "A couple of guys on the net said you should write the fluff for Codex: Baby Eating Tiger Monsters. You want to do that?" Now, immediately, he's making his job 800 times harder. Firstly, he has to wait months for me to write it, rather than doing it himself at the same time as the rules. Secondly, he loses creative control over the entire direction of the book, which is obviously not what any writer wants to do. He'd be reduced to writing rules, and nothing else. Thirdly, it amps up more and more time in second, third, fourth drafts, etc. because it's not just him managing the project, it's both of us needing to constantly adjust our ideas to fit each other. Fourthly, and no less importantly, a lot of what I've seen from the game design studio shows they seem to have very little interest in communicating with us. I don't know why, and I won't make any guesses because I have such little information about it. But, in all fairness, they don't need to: we both suckle the core lore from the same source: the IP division. BL's editors (and many of its authors) have great relationships with the guys in the IP section of the company, especially in regards to Alan Merrett at the Horus Heresy meetings. So I don't accuse the design studio of foul play because they're too busy (or whatever) to talk to us, and I certainly don't feel offended that they're not banging on my door and begging to me to write a codex. Logistically, it just makes no sense, and I can understand why - as a writer - they'd want to write that stuff themselves.

 

Lastly, sales-wise, it would really make no difference. The Grey Knights aren't selling less (at least, not noticeably less, despite 1 or 2 guys saying they're boycotting, etc.) because the 40K forums are largely not in favour of Mat Ward's background writing. The rules are swish, the models are killer, and I'm sure they're selling deliciously. Whether it's written by a New York Times bestseller or not, sales will be largely the same. Look at the Blood Angels. Look at the quality of the models, and the cool new stuff they got. Do you think they're selling worse because some people complained about the Sanguinor being silly, or Dante being overpowered in the fluff (or whatever the online complaints are that week)?

 

And this is a point where places like the B&C really overestimate forums as a real representation of the hobby. Here, you see a hundred opinions that Chaos is selling very badly, due to the last codex. That's one of those things that's simply not true - no matter how loud the vocal minority is when they shout about it. Spurred on by a lot of the grim talk, I've ended up asking store managers, regional managers, and everyone you can imagine at HQ who'd bother to talk to me. It's one of those instances where what the forums insist is true really isn't playing out on the front lines. Codices don't sell models. The models sell themselves. We - the ones who gather in these small online communities to discuss the rules forever and ever - are the absolute minority, with the strongest opinions. That's why we're here. We care enough to spend so much of our free time discussing it. But that doesn't mean our perceptions are always right.

 

And that's why I'm not sad that 'll never be in a codex, though I'm totally honoured anyone would ever suggest it. I'd love to do it, but realisitcally, I completely understand why the design studio wouldn't even consider it.

 

Oh, and lastly, there's probably the fact that when people say "ADB should write a codex" (or something similar, with X or Y author), that likely just makes the design studio guys hate us. I know I'd be less than thrilled to see "ADB's Grey Knights book sucks, Mat Ward should have written this novel". I'd think "He's a game designer, not a writer," as I'm sure Mat would think "He's an author, not a game designer" at the suggestion of me (or whoever) doing a codex. So, again, I completely understand.

 

It's sort of strange. 10 years ago... Hell, even 5 years ago, BL was regarded as non-canon and in the eyes of some people, little better than fanfic. Changes in the last 2-4 years have really started that turning around, though. Now it's far more common to see requests for authors to be the ones writing codex backgrounds, rather than game designers. But still, don't mistake a vocal internet minority as a massive fandom backlash. If you look at the way codices are coming these days, and the quality of the models, I sincerely doubt anyone at HQ would see the need to change anything as drastic as outsourcing the prose to a novelist. It's a great time to be in the hobby. There'll always be bad points - when you're younger, you don't notice them so much, and as you get older, more and more lore doesn't quiiiite gel with your personal perception of 40K's themes, and how it should all be done. But perspective is everything.

[the jeske]

Codices don't sell models. The models sell themselves.

where in the US or in the UK where they have a large community that just goes for models ? main land europe aint like that. If someone wants realy nice models , there are companies that make better ones the GW .+ the estethics of GW models doesnt realy fly with the french and spanish market . A codex do sell the armies . DA come out and they had wonderful new terminators + an edition switch close by that should rise sales . they hade a very nice biker battle force [as in nice in both terms of models and the stuff one got for the money] . DA sold bad. Why? because the DA dex was bad compering to the 4th ed sm dex in 4th ed and it didnt get any better in the 5th ed [because it took 2 years for GW to do update identical gear they had to what other loyalist sm dex had in 5th ed] .

 

how does chaos sales look when 3.5 dex was there . people needed csm [they do need them now too]/zerkers or pms . But there was also more builds , one could do a gunline list or a hth list [mecha/infiltration] or one of the many demon bombs.

Now demon bomb is dead so few ,if any , csm players need to buy demons . More even if they do it doesnt matter which one they pick up . Back in the 3.5 times picking nettes or letters both made sense . They cut the number of unit choice and build per army , so hard that chaos has to generate lower sales then it did before .

 

I mean what do we need rhinos , DPS, oblits ,csm to do pms/csm z, erkers , 3 defilers , 3 LR , 12 termis and unless someone plays apocalips [which isnt realy that popular] your dont with chaos , you have all the models you will ever need.

 

Or maybe the managers say that The newest models for chaos [aka the DP that every one needs for their army] has a good rate of sales ? I could understand that . Just like I can imagine that oblits and plastic chaos termis [used to make oblits cheaper] sell well too.

[Grey Mage]

My problem [and probably mages too] is that a lot of the new players think that happy chaos family is what always has been there and that puting DP/pms/oblits in to a list and telling "I play AL" is ok and there is nothing wrong about it.

Yeah, I can understand that, but what about the people who just model and paint every legion, and when playing use a mono-legion fluff list? I understand your feelings about 'fluff-benders', but what about the people who paint and model an all AL-list - all WE-list etc?

I'm not defending the benders, but some people just like more then one legion, and some are crazy enough to paint them all. Why do you think I want 5 Daemon princes if I can only put 2 on the board :P

I'm just saying, a lot of the newer players do indeed throw Chaos together as a big family, but there are also those who make it a psycho family that is ready to kill the others of his family.

 

I think the biggest problem is so many Chaos players' absolute inability to see what rocks in the way Chaos is now. (And note, I don't necessarily see that as their fault.) But it's sort of depressing to see so many people enslaved to the idea of Legions, Legions, Legions. Chaos is more than that now. It's still there, plus a lot more. Why isn't that allowed? Why does it have to be some bizarre and imaginary difference between Legions and Renegades? It's people applying how the tabletop game traditionally works, and sticking that to the fluff. And that's a shame. It should always be the other way 'round.

 

But I'm tired of this topic, personally. I can't be bothered to do yet another essay on it. Yeah, the lore was explained badly in the last codex. Absolutely. But it's not a matter of "The Legions are entirely broken and gone" or "Legions are best friends and all still together". It's both of those, and everything inbetween. It's been 10,000 freaking years of civil war. It's sad that one of the coolest elements of Chaos (the fact that they fight themselves so often, and the unique grudges and alliances it brings) is something that people ignore in favour of "But I want Legion rules...", and so rarely see it any other way.

 

We should be able to have the best of both worlds, and infinite choice. Instead we've got older players seeing Legions, Legions, Legions - refusing any updates - and what few updates we've had explaining the developments so badly that no one gets interested in it.

In what way is chaos now? Particularly... in what way is chaos now that it wasnt before?

 

Chaos Renegades are something thats been around forever- as are warbands. These arent new things. Whats new is that they seem to be about the only thing fleshed out in fluff and rules in the current book. The rivalries between gods, and inside gods, is brushed over in a few sentences. The entire horus heresy is 3 pages. Followed by a dozen pages on renegades and traitor chapters.

 

Rules wise, wich wasnt what I was refering to initially, the legion rules gave people more flexability for rules for their renegades- indeed, between them and the core list you could field anything you wanted save the most newly of fallen chapters- ie, razorbacks or landspeeders were missing. The same cannot be said of the converse these days- the rules for renegades are stifled, and the legions hearts have been cut out.

 

And What updates? Ive yet to see a single update on the chaos codex. Legions, warbands, or fluff. Theres been a couple black library books come out recently, and thats great- but many players have not read them yet and probly wont for some time to come. Many of us who have kept an ear to chaos fluff for years disagree with the things we see in them, and the whole thing is more confused than a dark angel in a bar.

 

No one is asking for the legions to be happy familiies. No one is denying there are splinter groups, and that warbands comprise the majority of chaos forces. What Im saying, what the OP seems to be saying is that it wouldnt matter if they were or they werent because frankly with the fluff thats available to a modern gamer you wouldnt be able to tell anyways.

 

Thats what the problem is, and thats whats killing the hobby for many of my friends- that when they ask a kid why he has a slaaneshi sorceror in a squad of khorne beserkers being transported inside landraider converted up as possessed by a nurgle daemon, he says 'cause I like lash of submission, and landraiders are awesome'. When you ask him about the background hes got nothing to say on the matter, and is suprised that anyone would feel theres anything wrong with the drugged up sorcerer leading the bloodthirsty death machines inside a rotting transport. It never even occurred to them that it should be a rare thing, and that a good backstory is warranted for such a rare setup.

 

This isnt even a wardism- where the fluff is killed and replaced by new fluff. Its just... neglect. And it makes chaos bland. Chaos was never bland before.....

 

I know Khorne and Slaanesh aren't the best of friends. But is it so wrong to want to model both legions, read every Chaos book you can get your hands on, even if one is about Khorne, the other about Word Bearers, etc etc? Ok, when I make a list, I never put Slaanesh and Khorne together, or any other God (except that list I use against the 'only-winning-is-fun-players). But some people just like Chaos in a way that they want to model and paint every Legion.

If you only use those in an apocalypse, and the small list you keep mono-god, you can't hate those players so much, now can you?

Im not here to tell you how to paint your models, or how big a force you can have. But I will say this:

 

The guy who taught me this game was a really cool guy, and he loved chaos. He had one force, of atleast 2k in the 3.5 dex, for each of the cult armies, a nightlords, black legion, and iron warriors army, and he had his own renegade warband. Each one was a seperate army. Each one played differently. Each one had its own paint scheme, background, and theme. Sometimes hed borrow a couple cult troops for his black legion, or for his warband, but in general they were distinct.

 

Ive got no problem with anyone who wants to make some of each. More power to them- it certainly worked for john. Thats got nothing to do with noise marines in a nurglfied rhino though. Its got even less to do with not knowing anything about the forces your painting. Its your army- make it as big or small, as mono or diverse as you like.

 

What Im saying is that I find the new guys lack of fluff disturbing, and I wish I could force some story back into the book.

[A D-B]

Codices don't sell models. The models sell themselves.

where in the US or in the UK where they have a large community that just goes for models ? main land europe aint like that. If someone wants realy nice models , there are companies that make better ones the GW .+ the estethics of GW models doesnt realy fly with the french and spanish market . A codex do sell the armies . DA come out and they had wonderful new terminators + an edition switch close by that should rise sales . they hade a very nice biker battle force [as in nice in both terms of models and the stuff one got for the money] . DA sold bad. Why? because the DA dex was bad compering to the 4th ed sm dex in 4th ed and it didnt get any better in the 5th ed [because it took 2 years for GW to do update identical gear they had to what other loyalist sm dex had in 5th ed] .

 

how does chaos sales look when 3.5 dex was there . people needed csm [they do need them now too]/zerkers or pms . But there was also more builds , one could do a gunline list or a hth list [mecha/infiltration] or one of the many demon bombs.

Now demon bomb is dead so few ,if any , csm players need to buy demons . More even if they do it doesnt matter which one they pick up . Back in the 3.5 times picking nettes or letters both made sense . They cut the number of unit choice and build per army , so hard that chaos has to generate lower sales then it did before .

 

I mean what do we need rhinos , DPS, oblits ,csm to do pms/csm z, erkers , 3 defilers , 3 LR , 12 termis and unless someone plays apocalips [which isnt realy that popular] your dont with chaos , you have all the models you will ever need.

 

Or maybe the managers say that The newest models for chaos [aka the DP that every one needs for their army] has a good rate of sales ? I could understand that . Just like I can imagine that oblits and plastic chaos termis [used to make oblits cheaper] sell well too.

 

With the greatest respect, dude, I'll take what I've heard over your subjective perceptions. I understand that it's different from people's familiar guesswork on here, and their own personal perceptions. The trick is to remember just how limited on a global scale those personal perceptions are, even on a forum.

 

This is exactly why I hate replying to this stuff.

 

ME: "Here's something I found out from behind the scenes."

B&C: "But that doesn't match our expectations."

ME: "I know. That's sort of the point. That's why it's worth sharing. I thought it might show a little perspective and open some eyes."

B&C: "No, it's wrong."

ME: "..."

 

In what way is chaos now? Particularly... in what way is chaos now that it wasnt before?

 

Each edition presents the same information in different ways. That's the kicker. The information itself isn't always clear.

 

No one is asking for the legions to be happy familiies.

 

Actually, the difficulty in people understanding what the legions really are/were and what form they take these days is something that absolutely pervades these topics. Look at the "What do you want in the next Chaos Codex" thread? It's rife with these misunderstandings, and it's not because people are dumb, it's because the last codex failed to explain it well, and on the heels of 3.5 which really rammed home Legions, Legions, Legions with their IA articles.

 

No one is denying there are splinter groups, and that warbands comprise the majority of chaos forces. What Im saying, what the OP seems to be saying is that it wouldnt matter if they were or they werent because frankly with the fluff thats available to a modern gamer you wouldnt be able to tell anyways.

 

Thats what the problem is, and thats whats killing the hobby for many of my friends- that when they ask a kid why he has a slaaneshi sorceror in a squad of khorne beserkers being transported inside landraider converted up as possessed by a nurgle daemon, he says 'cause I like lash of submission, and landraiders are awesome'. When you ask him about the background hes got nothing to say on the matter, and is suprised that anyone would feel theres anything wrong with the drugged up sorcerer leading the bloodthirsty death machines inside a rotting transport. It never even occurred to them that it should be a rare thing, and that a good backstory is warranted for such a rare setup.

 

This isnt even a wardism- where the fluff is killed and replaced by new fluff. Its just... neglect. And it makes chaos bland. Chaos was never bland before.....

 

But I don't disagree with any of that, really. I think it comes down to how the material was presented, and I've long said that it's not getting the point across very well.

 

Given the way codices are now, though? I sincerely doubt we'll have the same issues in the future.

[maverike_prime]

[go back and read A D-B's message. I'm not quoting the entire thing. I'm just responding in a broad stroke]

 

I'm not saying you're wrong about your comment that Models sell models. I have no interest what so ever in playing grey knights but I've bought a box because I can make use of the models. Never once have I played Dark Angles but I found the robed power armor models useful in other armies.

 

But just to go on record: I am not saying Chaos isn't selling now. I know several people at the closest GW hobby center that play Chaos armies. I myself just sold a 5,000 point CSM army last week.

 

What I am saying is that in comparison to what was present previously in the codex, the current Codex feels to be much slimmer in amount of content and options and severely lacking in the quality of both.

 

A D-B, I understand your points about the difficulty of two companies working together (And lets face it, BL and GW production Studio ARE 2 separate companies in operation regardless of the associated names). Let's say you were to work on the next Chaos Codex. Am I expecting you to produce a story line like in First Herectic? no. You'd be writing fluff. For what is predominantly a rule book. Honestly I'd expect a total of 15-18 pages worth of broad stroke concepts with a few specific examples to back up the concepts.

 

Let's say you did write the fluff for the next Chaos Codex. The book comes out, I buy it, I read it... and I find it bland or feeling like it's half finished. I'm not going to stand on a soap box and preach about how A D-B ruined my codex. I'm going to say "Well, I guess A D-B is a better novel writer then he is an insert writer." It happens. Not everyone can write a New York times best seller every time they put pen to paper (Do you even use real paper when you write?).

 

Though I am curious about just how separate BL and GW PS really are. I mean are the writers at BL like unofficially prohibited from working with GW PS? I understand the difficulties of just communicating between companies. What about taking 1-2 editors and 2-3 of their associated writers from BL, and bringing them over to the Production Studio on a free-lance/project basis? So that the codex IS the focus of those half dozen individuals rather then one or two BL authors going through their editors who are talking to GW Production studios who is talking to the Codex project lead who is dealing with the in house teams who give him an answer back to give to the GW Production studio to talk to Black Library to talk to the editor to tell to the Author who by this point has probably forgotten what he asked 6 weeks ago anyway.

 

I know this is getting pretty close to the line of insider information and I'm probably stepping on toes of people I shouldn't be so if you can't answer my question I understand.

[A D-B]

What I am saying is that in comparison to what was present previously in the codex, the current Codex feels to be much slimmer in amount of content and options and severely lacking in the quality of both.

 

I have to run (need to finish my monthly article and go talk to peeps visiting for the week), so I'll try to answer the rest later. But I definitely don't disagree with this part, which is the main thrust of the thread. I just raised the other points as valid, relevant things worth considering as side-points to the whole deal.

[maverike_prime]

What I am saying is that in comparison to what was present previously in the codex, the current Codex feels to be much slimmer in amount of content and options and severely lacking in the quality of both.

 

I have to run (need to finish my monthly article and go talk to peeps visiting for the week), so I'll try to answer the rest later. But I definitely don't disagree with this part, which is the main thrust of the thread. I just raised the other points as valid, relevant things worth considering as side-points to the whole deal.

 

 

HE HE. and people think I just like A D-B because of First Heretic.

[minigun762]

To be honest, my first post might have seemed a bit whiny, I didn't intended it to be, I meant for this to be a discussion. Have Chaos Marines been reduced to slathering brutes? That was what I meant to say.

 

Overall, I would say yes.

The average Traitor Marine seems in all ways weaker/worse/stupider etc then the average Loyalist Marine. People often complain that Space Marines are bland and boring as characters because its always the same pray, train, fight, "For the Emperor!", act repeated over and over but I would say that Chaos is even worse off as they are always portrayed as the bloodthirsty maniac killer.

 

Setting aside the whole "Chaos Marines have 10,000 years of experience arguement", I would at least assume that the average Traitor Marine is as good as the average Loyalist and any conflict between the two should not be a forgone conclusion.

 

I wanted to say that I recently read a good little short story in the new Victories of the Space Marines book called The Long Games of Carcharias by Rob Sanders and I would recommend it to my Chaos brothers if only to give you a glance of how things should be.

[mrtn]

This is exactly why I hate replying to this stuff.

 

ME: "Here's something I found out from behind the scenes."

B&C: "But that doesn't match our expectations."

ME: "I know. That's sort of the point. That's why it's worth sharing. I thought it might show a little perspective and open some eyes."

B&C: "No, it's wrong."

ME: "..."

Some of us appreciate it when you do, so thank you. :P

[Brother Ambroz]

The long and short of it A-D-B is that most of us chaos players will continue to whine at each opportunity (no offense to anyone, I myself admit to whining alot) about our dex. We just have to wait until another codex. I don't even care if Matt Ward writes ours and kills our fluff, as long as we get some decent rules. Most of us already know our fluff from previous codexes and books therefore I don't really mind the lack of fluff so much as our horrible rules. I know exactly what you're talking about too Grey Mage. The other day I was playing a game with my Night Lords and a kid asked me "Are those Thousand Sons?". That did irritate me a bit.

[Grey Mage]

The Irony is your avatar.

[the jeske]

With the greatest respect, dude, I'll take what I've heard over your subjective perceptions. I understand that it's different from people's familiar guesswork on here, and their own personal perceptions. The trick is to remember just how limited on a global scale those personal perceptions are, even on a forum

I dont think it is subjective + am not talking here about sales in US or australia just main land europe because that is the market I know . I know a lot of shop owners in eastern europe and we do trade with guys from western europe[mostly germany and holland] and I know all of them are unhappy when they have to order chaos stuff , because it doesnt sell. With loyalist you will[ok sometimes it make take more time like bike battle forces etc] sell more or less everything . With chaos it is not so easy . + As I said before the number of items sold for the army book droped [even if you use lesser demons it doesnt matter which one you buy , because they dont have separate rules or is GW HQ count one time as separate dex , then as LSD for chaos and then each sale again as a WFB one ?] , the number of different builds droped too compering to what 3.5 was giving . A IW and an AL army may look identical like clones with the gav dex , it is just a matter how you paint it . In 3.5 dex those were different armies with different lists , which requiered people to buy different models . A guy that played AL and wanted to do IW with the same army had to buy 9 oblits , tanks [vindi , basilisk] .

[Brother Ambroz]

The Irony is your avatar.

 

A thousand son is my avatar because I play TS as well as night lords and world eaters.

[Mr. Sandbot]

The long and short of it A-D-B is that most of us chaos players will continue to whine at each opportunity (no offense to anyone, I myself admit to whining alot) about our dex. We just have to wait until another codex. I don't even care if Matt Ward writes ours and kills our fluff, as long as we get some decent rules. Most of us already know our fluff from previous codexes and books therefore I don't really mind the lack of fluff so much as our horrible rules. I know exactly what you're talking about too Grey Mage. The other day I was playing a game with my Night Lords and a kid asked me "Are those Thousand Sons?". That did irritate me a bit.

 

Ultimately I think this is what should matter the most. The idea that we're accurately represented on the table top with a sufficiently chaotic feel (as in good translation from fluff to table). Specifically for the fluff though, I feel like it definitely should be an emphasis on the way chaos is now instead of the legions of old. However they wish to represent chaos in the present, as long as its captured well onto the table and the fluff shows equal respect to the legionnaires, renegades and everything else in between, then I'm fine with it in the end.

 

Ugh, and Ghost, your story reminded me of the time one of my friends attempted to get another one of my friends into 40k. He was interested in chaos marines, but he just couldn't grasp the difference between playing a random renegade chapter who just so happen to really like worshiping chaos and playing the Word Bearers (he wanted to be a son of Lorgar). Eventually, he just stormed off ranting about how this hobby makes no sense. (I wonder if thats a failure of the rules or a failure for him to understand how to use the dex to properly represent the Word Bearers).