Artificer armor query

[c-wrex]

So in the wargear section of the codex on the armor page we have details for all the possible armor types. Nothing special there. Except that under the Artificer armor section, it makes special mention of how many suits of this armor the chapter has access too as a part of their extraordinary relationship with the Mechanicum. Now, this would lead one to believe that this armor can be found in many places throughout the Grey Knights unit list.

 

Except it isn't. Only Brotherhood Champions and Techmarines get it standard. Doesn't that seem kind of odd to anyone else? I would imagine that at least Purifiers, the cadre of the Chapter's most spiritually flawless warriors, would come standard with artificer suits. It isn't like there are very many Purifiers, after all. Plus, given the huge number of terminator suits in the upper echelons of the Chapter, it seems like the other Grey Knight elite warriors, who aren't adorned with tactical dreadnought plate would have an equivalent armor protection through artificer armor.

 

Just a thought I've been swirling around in my head for a few days, and I hadn't really seen it being talked about around here. It is my opinion that Purifiers should get arty armor standard, and power armored Justicars should have access to it as an upgrade. It makes sense, right? Given what the wargear section says? What do you guys think?

[the jeske]

would you like puris cost 5 pts more points per model ? because most people wouldnt .

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Probably for balance purposes. Having an army of 2+ models, and semi-cheap ones at that, would be very, very bad.

[c-wrex]

I get the price matters, it's just that the wording really bugs me. And if the cost were balanced according to the elitness of the warrior wearing it, I think it would just make sense to have it as an option.

[TyrionTheImp]

Obviously there would have to be a chance in points cost. SM Honor Guard have Art. armor and they're 35 points a piece with a power weapon and bolter. Imagine how much Purifiers would be with NFW, Storm Bolter, Hammerhand, Cleansing Flame, etc. if they had Artificer Armor.

 

One has to remember a 2+ save fails half as much as a 3+ save, so it's a pretty big increase, and since it's not Terminator Armor, they can still Sweeping Advance units.

[c-wrex]

True, but as one of the top units in the GK hierarchy, it would just make more sense for them to be as protected as possible. Now, maybe that's just me, but I wanted everyone's input.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The wording amused me aswell but i think i know what's happened.

 

You see Dante and Draigo where playing cards one night and Draigo lost, he lost bad. So now the GK's have to ship their artificer armour to the BAs.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's stupid for an army that gives every new recruit a suit of TDA to have *any* units in PA, or even AA. Unless there's reasons such as you can't fit a PT to a suit of TDa (but can to the immurably larger NDK...).

 

But, that was swiftly reconned prior to release.

 

With it's access to 'all the toys' the imperium has to offer (but sadly no Storm Shields... ;)), why not have all recuits in AA if they're not in TDA? Surely you can fit a PT onto a suit of AA if it can work with PA?

 

End of the day, it's silly, makes no sense, and was done only for balance.

 

Nothing we can do, but to hope in the next 'dex GW goes back to the fluff and makes it internally consistent and beilveable. This current version is sadly lacking...

[Brother Valerius]

Fluff != rules, and nor should it. While an honest effort should be made to make the rules fall in line with the fluff, at the end of the day, if the game is better off with rules that don't represent the fluff perfectly that's how it has to be. Nor should the fluff be rewritten just because of this limitation.

[c-wrex]

Fluff != rules, and nor should it. While an honest effort should be made to make the rules fall in line with the fluff, at the end of the day, if the game is better off with rules that don't represent the fluff perfectly that's how it has to be. Nor should the fluff be rewritten just because of this limitation.

 

To an extant. If rules were to be fluff accurate, any marine army should be able to crush any guard or ork army, or any eldar should sweep right through tau, et cetera. There does need to be a competitive balance, but then there should be more accord between rules and fluff. Fluff should be reflected by rules, but the rules need to be fair and balanced.

[Gentlemanloser]

That really.

 

You can't get away with a codex that claims everyone wears TDA when the rank and file troops actually wear PA.

 

It destroys internal consistencey and beliveability.

 

The Rules need to be balanced, but if you include fluff at all, it must go hand in hand with the rules.

 

I agree you should never balance on fluff, that would be disasterous!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well you can take terms as a troop choice so that is something for you.

 

G

[Brother Valerius]

You can't get away with a codex that claims everyone wears TDA when the rank and file troops actually wear PA.

It destroys internal consistencey and beliveability.

 

I guess we shall agree to disagree. I don't find the believability of the rules/fluff to be altered in the slightest by this incongruity.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why can't you use a PT with TDA (The size issue is ruined by the NDK. Inconsistent)? Why do Purgation Squads not use TDA (The Relentless would actually be a massive boon to them)? Why do Srike Squads even exist, as they can only DS, which TDA troops can do?

 

Strike Squads, at the least, should have had infiltrate, if you read thier fluff, to do what they are supposed to do. They don't, possibly for game balance reasons, and really have no place in the GK army (only being there for a second troop choice and a 'cheap' GK option).

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Why can't you use a PT with TDA (The size issue is ruined by the NDK. Inconsistent)? Why do Purgation Squads not use TDA (The Relentless would actually be a massive boon to them)? Why do Srike Squads even exist, as they can only DS, which TDA troops can do?

 

Strike Squads, at the least, should have had infiltrate, if you read thier fluff, to do what they are supposed to do. They don't, possibly for game balance reasons, and really have no place in the GK army (only being there for a second troop choice and a 'cheap' GK option).

 

Have to agree with SS, can't find a place in them in my armies. I use a backbone of Termies with Interceptors or Purgation squads for tactial usage.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Why can't you use a PT with TDA (The size issue is ruined by the NDK. Inconsistent)? Why do Purgation Squads not use TDA (The Relentless would actually be a massive boon to them)? Why do Srike Squads even exist, as they can only DS, which TDA troops can do?

 

Strike Squads, at the least, should have had infiltrate, if you read thier fluff, to do what they are supposed to do. They don't, possibly for game balance reasons, and really have no place in the GK army (only being there for a second troop choice and a 'cheap' GK option).

 

Have to agree with SS, can't find a place in them in my armies. I use a backbone of Termies with Interceptors or Purgation squads for tactial usage.

 

Surely their place is obvious, 2 x psycannon and psybolt ammo. They do fire support with 16 str 5 shots and 4 or 8 str 7. Most armies would kill for that kind of dakka out of troops. That other options are "better", is all situational and based on on special character or the other. GKSS are troops, their job is to sit on an objective for a game, and shoot stuff. They do all of this extremely well. Blood Angels pay the same points for a RAS with two meltaguns and a powerfist. What would you rather have?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Why can't you use a PT with TDA (The size issue is ruined by the NDK. Inconsistent)? Why do Purgation Squads not use TDA (The Relentless would actually be a massive boon to them)? Why do Srike Squads even exist, as they can only DS, which TDA troops can do?

 

Strike Squads, at the least, should have had infiltrate, if you read thier fluff, to do what they are supposed to do. They don't, possibly for game balance reasons, and really have no place in the GK army (only being there for a second troop choice and a 'cheap' GK option).

 

Have to agree with SS, can't find a place in them in my armies. I use a backbone of Termies with Interceptors or Purgation squads for tactial usage.

 

Surely their place is obvious, 2 x psycannon and psybolt ammo. They do fire support with 16 str 5 shots and 4 or 8 str 7. Most armies would kill for that kind of dakka out of troops. That other options are "better", is all situational and based on on special character or the other. GKSS are troops, their job is to sit on an objective for a game, and shoot stuff. They do all of this extremely well. Blood Angels pay the same points for a RAS with two meltaguns and a powerfist. What would you rather have?

 

I can make my purgation squads scoring and they have more dakka with cheaper halberds

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Why can't you use a PT with TDA (The size issue is ruined by the NDK. Inconsistent)? Why do Purgation Squads not use TDA (The Relentless would actually be a massive boon to them)? Why do Srike Squads even exist, as they can only DS, which TDA troops can do?

 

Strike Squads, at the least, should have had infiltrate, if you read thier fluff, to do what they are supposed to do. They don't, possibly for game balance reasons, and really have no place in the GK army (only being there for a second troop choice and a 'cheap' GK option).

 

Have to agree with SS, can't find a place in them in my armies. I use a backbone of Termies with Interceptors or Purgation squads for tactial usage.

 

Surely their place is obvious, 2 x psycannon and psybolt ammo. They do fire support with 16 str 5 shots and 4 or 8 str 7. Most armies would kill for that kind of dakka out of troops. That other options are "better", is all situational and based on on special character or the other. GKSS are troops, their job is to sit on an objective for a game, and shoot stuff. They do all of this extremely well. Blood Angels pay the same points for a RAS with two meltaguns and a powerfist. What would you rather have?

 

I can make my purgation squads scoring and they have more dakka with cheaper halberds

 

And then you missed the part where you have to use other factors in order to make them scoring, and for some reason you didn't get the part where they were fire support. Sure, put every single upgrade on every single squad in your army. Makes for a balanced list, of say 5 units for 1500 points. No wait, because then you'll have to have an HQ as well. Make that four. GKSS are a great unit combined to most other ACTUAL troops in any book. You "can make" is not the same thing as an inherent ability of an unit.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Why can't you use a PT with TDA (The size issue is ruined by the NDK. Inconsistent)? Why do Purgation Squads not use TDA (The Relentless would actually be a massive boon to them)? Why do Srike Squads even exist, as they can only DS, which TDA troops can do?

 

Strike Squads, at the least, should have had infiltrate, if you read thier fluff, to do what they are supposed to do. They don't, possibly for game balance reasons, and really have no place in the GK army (only being there for a second troop choice and a 'cheap' GK option).

 

Have to agree with SS, can't find a place in them in my armies. I use a backbone of Termies with Interceptors or Purgation squads for tactial usage.

 

Surely their place is obvious, 2 x psycannon and psybolt ammo. They do fire support with 16 str 5 shots and 4 or 8 str 7. Most armies would kill for that kind of dakka out of troops. That other options are "better", is all situational and based on on special character or the other. GKSS are troops, their job is to sit on an objective for a game, and shoot stuff. They do all of this extremely well. Blood Angels pay the same points for a RAS with two meltaguns and a powerfist. What would you rather have?

 

I can make my purgation squads scoring and they have more dakka with cheaper halberds

 

And then you missed the part where you have to use other factors in order to make them scoring, and for some reason you didn't get the part where they were fire support. Sure, put every single upgrade on every single squad in your army. Makes for a balanced list, of say 5 units for 1500 points. No wait, because then you'll have to have an HQ as well. Make that four. GKSS are a great unit combined to most other ACTUAL troops in any book. You "can make" is not the same thing as an inherent ability of an unit.

 

Didn't miss anything, i find Purgation squads more flexible. i use a Gradn master regardless of other factors so Purgation squads work for me. Also purgation squads get 4 cannons and SS only get 2.

[Gentlemanloser]

My questions are all fluff based, with nothing to do with point costs or army building (from a mechanics side, I use Strike Squads, but think Terminators have absolutley no place in any GK army, unless they're with Mordrak).

 

Surely their place is obvious, 2 x psycannon and psybolt ammo. They do fire support with 16 str 5 shots and 4 or 8 str 7. Most armies would kill for that kind of dakka out of troops.

 

A Terminator Squad brings exactly the same shooting cabaility, but is relentless, so thier Psycannons are always better.

 

Why do Strike Squads exist in the GK chapter?

 

The fluff has it they get to places before the main strike force. Really? TDA cna DS just as well. If the Strikes do that, then by default they need either Infiltrate or Scout.

 

Or both.

 

Without *some* justificaiton for Strikes getting to forward positions before the main force (which currently Strike *do no* have), then there is no place for them in the GK Chapter.

 

Hell, Interceptros perform the job that Strikes are supposed to perform. Better.

 

(Strike Squads *worked* in the leaked 'dex when they had the PTs and the reason they were in PA was becuase of that. When all GKs were given TDA as default. But that *had* to change to make sense of thier lower stats. Doing so, broke the reason to have Strikes. They don't fulfil their job description.)

 

Edit: Instead of Infiltrate or Scout, Strikes could have had the 'Teleport Assault'. First turn Ds with no scatter, like Mordrak. Done. Fluff satisfied. But then, that would probably be even more unballanced than Infiltrate. Or Scout...

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

My questions are all fluff based, with nothing to do with point costs or army building (from a mechanics side, I use Strike Squads, but think Terminators have absolutley no place in any GK army, unless they're with Mordrak).

 

Surely their place is obvious, 2 x psycannon and psybolt ammo. They do fire support with 16 str 5 shots and 4 or 8 str 7. Most armies would kill for that kind of dakka out of troops.

 

A Terminator Squad brings exactly the same shooting cabaility, but is relentless, so thier Psycannons are always better.

 

Why do Strike Squads exist in the GK chapter?

 

The fluff has it they get to places before the main strike force. Really? TDA cna DS just as well. If the Strikes do that, then by default they need either Infiltrate or Scout.

 

Or both.

 

Without *some* justificaiton for Strikes getting to forward positions before the main force (which currently Strike *do no* have), then there is no place for them in the GK Chapter.

 

Hell, Interceptros perform the job that Strikes are supposed to perform. Better.

 

(Strike Squads *worked* in the leaked 'dex when they had the PTs and the reason they were in PA was becuase of that. When all GKs were given TDA as default. But that *had* to change to make sense of thier lower stats. Doing so, broke the reason to have Strikes. They don't fulfil their job description.)

 

If we go by fluff I guess they could... eeer.. snoop around a bit xD? Place some teleport homers in wait for the main force? Obviously, this is not what they do by the rules. So, they don't really make any sense.

 

Is this possibly a case of fluff saying one thing, and G.W saying "sell more plastic kits!"?

[Gentlemanloser]

:) Exactly the point. (Like giving Strikes the ability to purchase TH and not Purgation uints. :D was with that decision? Really...)

 

The 'dex's fluff is totally inconsistent with itself. The army has been (rightfully) changed for balance reasons, but the fluff wasn't thought about enough. It wasn't developed after balance changes were made to the units themselves.

 

Like our over abundance of AA, when only 2 units (of 1 Marine each!) and a single SC can ever have it.

 

It was a radical development form the near non existance original fluff, so here's to hoping that when we eventually get nother Codex, the fluff is refined, into something that actually works.

 

Currently, there are sadly massive holes in it. :(

 

Which ruin immersing yourself in the army.

[Joasht]

would you like puris cost 5 pts more points per model ? because most people wouldnt .

I'd take a 31 point Halberd-wielding Artificer Armor-wearing Purifier over a 40 point Sanguinary Guard any day to be honest....

That said, I think it would have been interesting if they let the Purifiers upgrade their armor like how so many things in this army can get mastercrafted weapons. But alas its not in the book, so no point hoping about it....

[Brother Captain Kezef]

One of the biggest problems is game balance. The fluff for the Grey Knights is that they are the last word in one man armies, Ben Counter's trilogy describes this brilliantly. These guys can walk onto Daemon planets and take down Daemon-titans, they can rip apart greater daemons and pretty much defeat anything they decide to stand against.

 

The limiting factor is numbers, one Chapter designed to counter daemonic threats across the Imperium, in the end it means these guys can do allot, but at the same time can't do much as they are spread so thin.

 

That can't really be interpreted that way on tabletop, you'd never find a game for a start as nobody is interested in one-sided games. We have to sacrifice fluffage for game balance and in this regard we have one of the most balanced codexes (sp?) in 40k.

[Gentlemanloser]

I disagree. Our internal balance is rubbish.

 

Terminators are outclassed in virtually every instance by thier Strike Squad fellows. Crowe is so rubbish it's painful to use him. Halberds are so much better than the other NFW choices its staggering. Paladin and Purifiers outshine thier respecitive base types. Etc.

 

And this doesn't take the fluff into account. :)

 

Don't get me wrong, the GK dex is good, and fun. And I won't be swapping Dexs now I've finally got my dex and plastic troops. :( But we shoudn't confuse overall composition with good fluff/rules balance.