Why take Tactical Squads?

[rbuckey]

So, is there any reason, other than holding objectives, to take tactical squads in a Blood Angels army?

[Glendor]

Not really unless you like to have a longer range firebase of marines that can also hold objectives unlike devs. That is why most people dont take them.

[vharing]

20 rapid firing bolter shots is a pretty good reason.

[appiah4]

Firing Plasmaguns and Multi-Meltas from a Rhino Bunker on an objective is another. Also, they are good at deploying with Drop Pods on far objectives late in the game. Finally, if your playstyle is closer to Codex SM like mine is, you will love taking a lot of Tactical Squads and Sanguinary Priests like me.

[Mr.darkness]

1. They are one of the few static troops in the codex. Every army needs an objective sitter and these guys are tough, with good armour save and auto rally. The only other is scouts but the don't get the same manoeuvrability or armour save.

2. Their bolters are awesome. 2 shots each at 12, while on the go. That will destroy anything with anything less than a 4 up save.

3. Heavy weapons. Everybody always goes on about assault marines being able to take 2 special weapons, but where is the flexibility in that. It is always good to be able to plink of that extra FREE rocket launcher.

4. Combat squadding has a great effect on these guys. You pay 250 pts for a 10 man squad with meltagun, rocket launcher and rhino. You can then either keep them as one in the rhino or split them into 1 squad with a rocket launcher and 4 ablative wounds and 1 squad in a fast transport witty a meltagun and power fist. What's not to like.

5. Sanguinary priests. When combined with a sanguinary priest then tac squads just get better, they are now better at sitting on objectives from FNP. Better at charging with that furious charge. S5 marines is great. Finally you get the option for another power sword on the priest.

 

In my armies of at least 1000 pts then i almost always field two 10 man as shown above. 500 pts of awesomeness.

Also don't own any assault marines, I know, blasphemous.

[Leonaides]

Not really unless you like to have a longer range firebase of marines that can also hold objectives unlike devs. That is why most people dont take them.

This is internet wisdom - and wrong.

 

You want to know why you might take tactical squads? - consider a unit of Ork bikers. Your assault squads will never charge them on your terms, you cant catch up with them, you wont be able to shoot them very well, while they will drop your marines farily well with their bike-mounted weapons, always staying just out of charge range. Whereas a tactical squad can actually do something to that unit.

 

Go look in the ultras forum, look in the tactica forum... there're plenty of threads on how to use a tactical squad. If used well, they are just as 'offensive' and 'attacking' as an assault squad, but more flexible and more useful in a wider variety of situations.

 

But please do not listen to people who say tactical squads are useless. Taking advice from people who arent thinking very well isnt a very good idea.

[Gv0zD]

I'm gonna side with Leonaides and Mr.Darknes.

 

Tacts are indeed very useful. From giving free heavy weapons, to objective sitting, they can help a lot.

If you're not going to spam Razors, but will instead go for balanced mechanized list, tacts are better be taken. When mounted into Razor you have a mechanized strike team and fire support team to sit at home. When mounted in Rhino you have a mobile bunker with firepoints, ready to disembark and rain bolter-fire.

 

As for their uselessness, imagine you're fighting Eldar banshees. RAS won't hold a turn against them, but TACT can outshoot them.

[Corby]

Not really unless you like to have a longer range firebase of marines that can also hold objectives unlike devs. That is why most people dont take them.

This is internet wisdom - and wrong.

 

You want to know why you might take tactical squads? - consider a unit of Ork bikers. Your assault squads will never charge them on your terms, you cant catch up with them, you wont be able to shoot them very well, while they will drop your marines farily well with their bike-mounted weapons, always staying just out of charge range. Whereas a tactical squad can actually do something to that unit.

 

Go look in the ultras forum, look in the tactica forum... there're plenty of threads on how to use a tactical squad. If used well, they are just as 'offensive' and 'attacking' as an assault squad, but more flexible and more useful in a wider variety of situations.

 

But please do not listen to people who say tactical squads are useless. Taking advice from people who arent thinking very well isnt a very good idea.

 

You can beat Nob bikers in assault easily ( presuming you're taking about Nob bikers or if you're taking about regular ork bikers why would you not charge them? you've destroy them pretty easily with a 10 man assault marine squad) . Throw a dedicated close combat unit at them that can take the hits ( Ie furioso dreads , Hamminators etc) . Nob Bikers almost always have a painboy with them. With T5 and 3 wounds , a 5+ invunerable save and feel no pain , they're incredibly resilent to the firepower of a Tactical squad.

 

Tactical squads are far from useless but they're far from brillant either. Trying to discredit those who argue against Tactical squads by saying "They're arn't thinking very well" doesn't magically make up for all their flaws.

[Leonaides]

You can beat Nob bikers in assault easily ( presuming you're taking about Nob bikers or if you're taking about regular ork bikers why would you not charge them? you've destroy them pretty easily with a 10 man assault marine squad) . Throw a dedicated close combat unit at them that can take the hits ( Ie furioso dreads , Hamminators etc) . Nob Bikers almost always have a painboy with them. With T5 and 3 wounds , a 5+ invunerable save and feel no pain , they're incredibly resilent to the firepower of a Tactical squad.

 

Tactical squads are far from useless but they're far from brillant either. Trying to discredit those who argue against Tactical squads by saying "They're arn't thinking very well" doesn't magically make up for all their flaws.

 

And now who's not thinking very well? I was talking about normal Ork bikers, not Nobs. You cant charge them because they can move faster than you. You can move 12", they can move 24". They dont have to close with you as they can shoot you from out of charge range, where you have to move towards them, well into their charge range, and sacrifice your own shooting phase from that squad to have a realistic chance of reaching them in your next turn (otherwise they simply move 7" backwards and shoot you and you're back to square 1). An ork player who's got 2 braincells to rub together will not let you charge them unless the combat is looking in his favour, in which case he'll be the one charging you (with yet more firepower directed in to that squad). Hammernators are even more pointless since they're on foot (or are you assuming they're in a raider? Want to send 450-odd points after 150-200 odd? be my guest, while you're doing that he'll be pounding on the rest of your army). I have been in this very situation, with my assault squad forced to slog across the battlefield for 3 turns getting shot to pieces by a single Biker squad, who then turned round and pounced on my long-suffering assault marines and priest. Wasnt pretty.

 

While in this situation a tactical squad wont be able to slaughter them in droves, an assault squad wont even be able to scratch them. In my book, that makes tacticals better in this situation.

 

And if you care to do some wider checking - I generally reply to any post that says "Dont take Unit X because its useless" with "please ignore this person, they're being foolish" because they usually are. Sad but true.

[Ebsolom]

Another reason to take Tactical squads? They are the bread and butter of any SM army. Yes BA have a propensity to field high numbers of assault marines but from a fluff point of view I always field at least one Tac squad.

 

Disclaimer: No, I'm not a tourney player :)

[Corby]

You can beat Nob bikers in assault easily ( presuming you're taking about Nob bikers or if you're taking about regular ork bikers why would you not charge them? you've destroy them pretty easily with a 10 man assault marine squad) . Throw a dedicated close combat unit at them that can take the hits ( Ie furioso dreads , Hamminators etc) . Nob Bikers almost always have a painboy with them. With T5 and 3 wounds , a 5+ invunerable save and feel no pain , they're incredibly resilent to the firepower of a Tactical squad.

 

Tactical squads are far from useless but they're far from brillant either. Trying to discredit those who argue against Tactical squads by saying "They're arn't thinking very well" doesn't magically make up for all their flaws.

 

And now who's not thinking very well? I was talking about normal Ork bikers, not Nobs. You cant charge them because they can move faster than you. You can move 12", they can move 24". They dont have to close with you as they can shoot you from out of charge range, where you have to move towards them, well into their charge range, and sacrifice your own shooting phase from that squad to have a realistic chance of reaching them in your next turn (otherwise they simply move 7" backwards and shoot you and you're back to square 1). An ork player who's got 2 braincells to rub together will not let you charge them unless the combat is looking in his favour, in which case he'll be the one charging you (with yet more firepower directed in to that squad). Hammernators are even more pointless since they're on foot (or are you assuming they're in a raider? Want to send 450-odd points after 150-200 odd? be my guest, while you're doing that he'll be pounding on the rest of your army). I have been in this very situation, with my assault squad forced to slog across the battlefield for 3 turns getting shot to pieces by a single Biker squad, who then turned round and pounced on my long-suffering assault marines and priest. Wasnt pretty.

 

While in this situation a tactical squad wont be able to slaughter them in droves, an assault squad wont even be able to scratch them. In my book, that makes tacticals better in this situation.

 

And if you care to do some wider checking - I generally reply to any post that says "Dont take Unit X because its useless" with "please ignore this person, they're being foolish" because they usually are. Sad but true.

 

 

I queried about whether you were refering to Nob bikers or regular ork bikers. Ork Bikers refers to either of them in my books. They can move faster sure, but Ork shooting isn't exactly accurate to begin with so its a poor point , if he wants to hit with 2 or 3 odd S5 shots a turn and stay away from assaulting me I'm fine with it and If an opponent is concerned about moving one unit flat out and forgoing shooting due to feeling threaten by a single assault squad then be my guest. But honestly I can't remember the last time I've seen ork bikers at a tournament.

 

I'm presuming my terminators are in a stormraven. Since I don't run them any other way. I was under the impression you were refering to nob bikers in the begining , hence why I made reference to Terminators. Which is a moot point now.

 

However doing theroy hammer in a vacuum is pretty pointless. Telling me Unit A can do this while Unit B will destroy you is pointless as it doesn't evaluate the effectiveness of any particular unit and how it meshes with an army. 40k is built around very specific game plans ( in relation to what army you're facing , the terrain , the objective) which adds a hell of a lot of variables to saying Unit A is awesome. But Unit B is terrible. Hence why I didn't say Tactical marines are Bad. They can be very good , and mesh very well with a particualr style of army.

[knife&fork]

While in this situation a tactical squad wont be able to slaughter them in droves, an assault squad wont even be able to scratch them. In my book, that makes tacticals better in this situation.

 

Devastators do it better, predators do it better, bikes do it better, stormravens do it better, whirlwinds do it better, rifleman dreads do it better.... do I need to go on?

 

Tacticals are generalists and some people don't have room for those kind of units in their lists.

[Gv0zD]

While in this situation a tactical squad wont be able to slaughter them in droves, an assault squad wont even be able to scratch them. In my book, that makes tacticals better in this situation.

 

Devastators do it better, predators do it better, bikes do it better, stormravens do it better, whirlwinds do it better, rifleman dreads do it better.... do I need to go on?

 

Tacticals are generalists and some people don't have room for those kind of units in their lists.

All the mentioned units are not Troops. I can say that Vaguards are way better than RAS, but it's a flawed comparison. If choosing from Tacts or RAS, tacts are more versatile, and offer many different ways of their implementation.

 

All in all, it heavily depends on how do you want to use the certain unit. Some tme ago, I and Knife&fork were arguing on regular bikes' usefulness in BA army. The answer is - if they perform well for you, go for it. The same thing with Tacts.

[knife&fork]

All the mentioned units are not Troops. I can say that Vaguards are way better than RAS, but it's a flawed comparison. If choosing from Tacts or RAS, tacts are more versatile, and offer many different ways of their implementation.

 

My point was that in this particular scenario tacticals are far inferior to a lot of units, not a very good argument to justify tacticals in a list.

 

The only thing tacticals do better than any other unit in the codex is sitting on an objective and claiming it. That's not to say they are worthless in every other way. Since they can do everything in a pinch they make for a very good reserve unit to pod in.

 

 

EDIT: They make for a very solid backbone (along with razorbacks for extra heavy weapons) if you want to play gunline/counter charge BA. But those kind of lists are not exactly where the codex excels or what BA are known for.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

All the mentioned units are not Troops. I can say that Vaguards are way better than RAS, but it's a flawed comparison. If choosing from Tacts or RAS, tacts are more versatile, and offer many different ways of their implementation.

 

My point was that in this particular scenario tacticals are far inferior to a lot of units, not a very good argument to justify tacticals in a list.

 

The only thing tacticals do better than any other unit in the codex is sitting on an objective and claiming it. That's not to say they are worthless in every other way. Since they can do everything in a pinch they make for a very good reserve unit to pod in.

 

 

EDIT: They make for a very solid backbone (along with razorbacks for extra heavy weapons) if you want to play gunline/counter charge BA. But those kind of lists are not exactly where the codex excels or what BA are known for.

 

You're right there. And then again, 2 plasma guns just might be better than a heavy weapon and some bolters. For all their "tactical" status, tactical marines do one thing right, namely sit still. As has been said before, Devs do this better. Tacticals are just meeeeh for B.A, as they don't even really work for MECH, as five RAS can have a Razorback for almost free, and then even take a special weapon.

[Gv0zD]

I wanna try a mech list with LRs, Baals, and sternguard, and I think that Tacts would be much better in that list, as they can also have meltas and other heavy weaponry, while a few chainsword swinging guys just not fit in there.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I wanna try a mech list with LRs, Baals, and sternguard, and I think that Tacts would be much better in that list, as they can also have meltas and other heavy weaponry, while a few chainsword swinging guys just not fit in there.

 

I can understand where you are coming from. The "problem" for me is that you have to take ten tacs in order for them to have any special weapons, if you want a Razorback with them, half will have to footslog. Footslog in this case would obiously mean stack behing with the M.L. The problem here is then line of sight, which may very well be block with razors or rhinos.

 

RAS with LAS plas and a plasmagun cost a staggering 170 points, edit: this also includes a plas-back.

 

10 x tacs with a plasma gun a missilie launcher cost 180 points, and that does not include a set of wheels (or...eeer... tracks). Maybe those few blokes with bolt pistols don't sound that bad after all? It doesn't sound bad to me, but that is just an opinion. Each to his own =)

[knife&fork]

I'm not a fan of combat squadded tacticals. 5 regular marines are not much of threat to anything and can't soak up a lot of casualties.

 

If you must combat squad them, at least look at some more unusual load outs, the now standard PF, melta, ML is not super to begin with and even less so when broken down in half.

[Glendor]

Not really unless you like to have a longer range firebase of marines that can also hold objectives unlike devs. That is why most people dont take them.

This is internet wisdom - and wrong.

 

You want to know why you might take tactical squads? - consider a unit of Ork bikers. Your assault squads will never charge them on your terms, you cant catch up with them, you wont be able to shoot them very well, while they will drop your marines farily well with their bike-mounted weapons, always staying just out of charge range. Whereas a tactical squad can actually do something to that unit.

 

Go look in the ultras forum, look in the tactica forum... there're plenty of threads on how to use a tactical squad. If used well, they are just as 'offensive' and 'attacking' as an assault squad, but more flexible and more useful in a wider variety of situations.

 

But please do not listen to people who say tactical squads are useless. Taking advice from people who arent thinking very well isnt a very good idea.

 

I was not trying to say they are useless but rather that their main use is to capture objectives and use as a long range fire base. Which is what you said. If you read the original post he asked if there was any reason, other than taking objectives. I replied not really because though you can use them in other ways that is their main role. I do not think they are useless at all and use them quite often.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I'm not a fan of combat squadded tacticals. 5 regular marines are not much of threat to anything and can't soak up a lot of casualties.

 

If you must combat squad them, at least look at some more unusual load outs, the now standard PF, melta, ML is not super to begin with and even less so when broken down in half.

 

I'm not a fan of those either. The tacical squad's problem has always been that they get a heavy weapon and a special weapons. These only ever mix in rhinos. The obvious problem here is then, that a plasback has a lascannon and a t-l-l.c. That is something the tacticals cannot compete with, as a similiar loadout in a rhino would cost them like 250 points. Then the RAS in a box have an epic advantage in points, and in that they can move 12 inch and fire either weapon. Once again, opinion more than fact. And the RAS actually has room for an IC in their ride.

[Gv0zD]

What I find most funny is that when new BAdex was released no one would even listen about tacticals in BA lists. Now I see more and more people taking them to solve 'objective issues'. Why am I saying this? Because it's not wise to completely avoid certain units due to their limited usefullness. There are armies that can effectively crush RAS, hordes and banshees are among them. Bolter fire can really help sometimes.

 

P.S. Ebsolom is damn right - BA are almost codex chapter, and seeing a list with 30-40 RAS is like Drow Red Dragon Disciple Bard in D&D - powerful but pretty rediculous :P

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

What I find most funny is that when new BAdex was reeased no one would even listen about tacticals in BA lists. Now I see more and more people taking them to solve 'objectives issues'. Why am I saying this? Because it's not wise to completely avoid certain units due to their limited usefullness. There are armies that can effectively crush RAS, hordes and banshees are among them. Blter fire can really help sometimes.

 

P.S. Ebsolom is damn right - BA are almost codex chapter, and seeing a list with 30-40 RAS is like Drow Red Dragon Disciple Bard in D&D - powerful but pretty rediculous :P

 

I'm not sure about hordes of banshees. They're like WS4 and str 3. That's one dead marine in three attacks, if not less.

[knife&fork]

There are armies that can effectively crush RAS, hordes and banshees are among them. Bolter fire can really help sometimes.

 

You know what's better than bolter fire against those? Fire fire! :D

If you are really struggling against hordes it's probably because you stubbornly try to pack as many melta guns in your assault squads instead of making room for a least one flamer. :D

[Gv0zD]

There are armies that can effectively crush RAS, hordes and banshees are among them. Bolter fire can really help sometimes.

 

You know what's better than bolter fire against those? Fire fire! :lol:

If you are really struggling against hordes it's probably because you stubbornly try to pack as many melta guns in your assault squads instead of making room for a least one flamer. :angry:

Did I say I was struggling? Not likely. Are we discussing my army here? Don't think so.

 

Once again, I'm not agitating for particular unit. Don't like it/find it useful - don't use it. Wanna use RAS vs powerful CC specialists? Go for it.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

There are armies that can effectively crush RAS, hordes and banshees are among them. Bolter fire can really help sometimes.

 

You know what's better than bolter fire against those? Fire fire! :lol:

If you are really struggling against hordes it's probably because you stubbornly try to pack as many melta guns in your assault squads instead of making room for a least one flamer. :angry:

Did I say I was struggling? Not likely. Are we discussing my army here? Don't think so.

 

Once again, I'm not agitating for particular unit. Don't like it/find it useful - don't use it. Wanna use RAS vs powerful CC specialists? Go for it.

 

I thought everybody agreed that Banshees were junk by now? People stuck in 3rd ed. thinking seem to think that a squad of banshees is actually a threat, whereas most people know their mathammer. Banshees are a joke, especially considering they need a Wave Serpent. A group of death cult assasins however, is something worthy of taking precautions against.

Or genestealers. But banshees are crap. Even scorpions are better.