Why take Tactical Squads?

[Black Memories]

I run lemmy and 5-6 dc (depending on the point squeeze) in a SR and they not only get their kp/points back every game, they also are almost never wiped out, and thus yield no kill points. I've found that with death company offense is the best defense, running the SR up a flank and dropping the DC and a dread makes people have to choose which to try and take down with the tools they have, and coming up the other flank with meph/assault squads, whatever else you have really puts people into a pinch. The trick to running the DC small is simple and the same concept as mech BA. Threat saturation.

 

That said if one runs a list like mine, tactical squads are a little more difficult to justify taking, but they have their place. Running a high-assault/mobility army means you will need a placeholder, and while razorback squads can do that, I personally feel more relaxed leaving a 10 man tactical squad on an objective than a 5 man razorback squad.

 

I suppose this thread, really, is kind of daft in a way. If you're asking what use is a tactical squad without its uses as a scoring unit, of which there are few, being able to hold an objective then I'm not sure what you're asking. The major strength of assault squads/razorbacks/tact squads in a BA is is that they're scoring units and you can configure them to excellent objective takers or holders or both depending on what your list needs. If you don't need to hold objectives death company as your troops and roll people with a ridiculous assault force because obviously their offensive and defensive capabilities are superior to all other troop choices available. I don't see how you can separate their scoring effectiveness and still ask this question, it's wholly pertinent to the discussion.

[shatter]

BA horde lists should feature 1 tactical for every CC unit else your threat footprint is too short and crowded.

[Black Memories]

BA horde lists should feature 1 tactical for every CC unit else your threat footprint is too short and crowded.

 

 

I'm not sure what this is actually suggesting. It seems to be contradicting itself. Tactical squads are not a major threat for most armies in the say way a vindicator or assault terminators or furioso dreads are, I'm not sure how you're increasing your "threat footprint" by take less threatening units.

[Leonaides]

A more varied threat potential then - for example, If you take DC, RAS, Assault termies, VV's, etc - I know you're out for the CC kill and hence deploy accordingly. If you turn up with a gunline army then I know I need to hit the cover, even if it might put me in a potential disadvantage should you send CC units towrads me (but as you dont have any CC units I dont need to worry about it). The term is "combined arms" approach, I believe. Popular with a lot of people, but not so popular in a netlist world where people want a simple "I win" list.

[Black Memories]

I don't see how having a tactical squad is a major boon against an IG army, or a target they'd readily go after. Personally I'd rather have fast/deep striking melta weapons and some good assault than I would have a tactical squad. That's my preference in that situation though. For the record I play with a tactical squad in nearly all of my competitive lists, so I'm not slanted away from them.

 

 

I will say people seem to be very critical of "i win" lists, often to the point of even criticizing lists that trend an overload to a specific aspect. What I don't understand is why it's ok for some people to play the hobby the way they want, the way they want their army to be, and not the others. Personally as a Blood Angels player I feel like I have the tools to defeat any opponent no matter what they bring. I realize not every army is in such a favorable position, but bad things can happen to strong lists. Personally I love the challenge. There's nothing more motivating to me than losing.

 

Personally I absolutely love the play-style of glass cannon lists, and I can tell you from my personal experience and opinion they're a lot tougher to manage than a balanced list. I also think another reason people shy away from tactical squads when it comes to supporting firepower, etc. is that if you aren't playing a list that is designed to incorporate them then they aren't nearly as useful as other supporting fire options (which is a notion I agree with). That said I think balanced lists are as competitive as any stacked list just because one of the strengths of a balanced list, especially in competitive play, is flexibility and adaptability.

 

I just fail to see how tactical squads are a way to add to your threats, I don't know that If I was playing against them I'd count them as a reasonable unit to be threatened by in any way. I'd say they can be a major advantage in some situations to have in your army, but I don't see them as diversifying the threats.

 

 

EDIT: What I'm specifically saying is I don't see tactical squads diversifying threat without being acknowledged as a scoring until and thus a threat to objectives. Other than that I can't really put tactical squads as a higher threat than most standard BA units as far as offensive production and destructive capability.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Well, maybe you overlooked the part where I said that those infantry squads should be embarked in Rhinos or other vehicles?

 

Yes, I did, because you said, 'Infantry is far more resistent against enemy fire than tanks are' which is wrong, simply stating a single lascannon shot can kill a tank does not make the tank any less resistant to low strength weapons, and of course the chance of a lascannon penetrating the front armour of a Baal is only 1/3, pretty poor odds compared to its 2+ to wound on infantry, but now we are into hypotheticals, not an area I wanted to stray. Back to the statement, that you would follow it up with the statement use '[any transport] to maximise their potential' is a patently silly statement. Different transports work better for different units. The idea that you should be rolling around an assault vehicle (stormraven or Land Raider) with a Tactical Squad does not make much sense, that much should be obvious to you.

 

I'm surprised you field a 5 man DC and Lemartes with such good effect, off topic, do you deep-strike them? I consider such a unit over-costed, and without any invulnerable rather exposed.

 

Well, even that 1/3 chance is enough to penetrate the armour and blow the tank up. Been there, seen that. ;)

Yes, I admit that my statement "maximise their potential" is silly. It generalises the utility of units without being specific in any way.

And indeed, it makes no sense to transport a Tactical squad with a Land Raider or a Stormraven in the first place. However, I believe that they can be re-positioned later in the game, assumed that the Stormraven survives unto that point.

 

 

On the DC matter, yes, I do sometimes. It depends on the opponent, I deepstruck them once when I was facing 'vanilla marines'. After my opponent was done with his shooting, my squad had lost one marine and Lemartes down to one wound(armour save, coversave and FnP worked wonders) and all his units had used rapid fire and therefore couldn't charge. My turn saw my DC mopping up a Tactical squad, and one round later they had the chance to get hold of a 10-men dev squad(which was also annihilated).

 

 

Drop pods are indeed a very successful delivery system which I forgot to take into consideration in my last post. I apologise for this.

 

No need to apologise mate, we're having a pretty interesting discussion, although if the following paragraph is directed at me ;) (which I don't think it is)

No it was indeed not. I was just uttering my thoughts on those power "gamers", not offending anybody who spams tanks, or, to say it more correctly, plays mech lists. ;)

'Spamming' tanks is as legitimate as an all DC or all jump troop DoA list. This sneering at mech BA that I see from time to time on this forum is tiresome. I like my BA tanks, I like my Furioso's. Deal with it.

Also while it might be popular amongst powergamers, any players to the hobby are a boon for the hobby. They must, after all, abide by the rules of the game, and thanks to the random nature dice rolls most armies can beat each other. Beating up on kids with Leafblowers is rather pointless. As with all games that have an element of skill you get better by playing opponents that are as good or better then you. And, as with you, I play to have fun, but I'd gladly take on all comers. Having said that I have been to a few tournaments and have never played someone I thought was a real a-hole. Competitive people, yes, and I think some people mistake that for being unfriendly. I think the intro for Kirby's 3++ blog says it best about competitive builds. Trying to be a better player and to make a better list does not make you a bad 40k player or a bad person.

 

Yes, spamming tanks or even infantry is legitimate. On the internet, one just doesn't know who he's up against. I just can't know if there is a "I have to win at all costs" or a "I like to play mech because of that and that reason" player, and therefore I'm a bit suspicious every time I see those lists coming up. ;)

But, the more time I spend on this board, the more I'm getting convinced that not all of the mech/spam players are those who like to stomp young players. :)

To use the example you provided, I've proxied a DoA list with 2 Assault squads as troops and one tactical squad in a drop pod.

furthermore, there was a Furioso in a drop pod which came down in the first turn to pop vehicles.

 

Yep, I use them in a similar way to great effect. But for DoA lists I would consider part of their strength coming from the fact that they are entirely infantry, and as you said heavy weapons can only kill one marine a turn, thus negating a significant chunk of your opponents firepower. Diversifying weakens that advantage.

 

For my part I consider Tacticals in a Rhino an awkward unit. Assault Squads can do it better, firing out the two hatches with their meltaguns or flamers. Hosing units is effective but really, the Assault squad will be doing that going in anyways with their bolt pistols. It sounds like you might be removing too many bodies from the assault line by shooting them up like that.

As I said above, putting them in a Stormraven or a Land Raider is less effective then other choices that can more fully take advantage of the assault vehicle status. Razorback is better done by assault squads.

I think the place they find in my list is as a drop-podding rapid fire and late game scoring unit, but I think they can equally be used to sit back in your deployment zone and just snipe away as a scoring unit, something Dev's cannot do.

 

 

Mh, yes, I see your point. But one thing that is very important seems to be missing. The special weapons, which the Tactical Squad can get for free, are not the key to its effectiveness in shooting, they rather support the damage load-out in the shooting phase. The bolter shots are important for the effectiveness of the tactical squad, the special weapons merely make the squad more versatile against a variety of opponents.

And even with those two special weapons, the assault squad will excel in close combat, whereas the tactical squad will be better at decimating the opponent at short/middle range. In the end, I think Assault and Tactical Squads should support and complement each other. Debating about the superior utility of one of the two is fine in theory, but on the table the combination of both squads is something only the most elite units can stand against. And those should be engaged with Hammernators or similar stuff. ;)

However, I agree with your last statements. Tactical Squads are no good in Razorbacks, but can be very effective as objective grabbers or

-sitters.

 

 

 

 

Snorri out.

[d503]

Tactical squads are better, because if you buy the AoBR ones of the net, they are about 30% the cost of a regular tac squad, let alone an assault squad with 2 meltaguns.

[liberate_tutame]

Ahhh, Snorri, the red, it burns! And from a Blood Angels players that's saying something!

 

Yep, anything that cant bypassing that Feel no Pain is just not going to hurt Death Company. They are amazingly resilient to small arms fire. Even with the danger from heavy weapons fire I guess I just find it surprising that you don't always deepstrike them, controlling Death Company can be quite difficult when they are not packed inside a Rhino, Razorback etc. ready to pop out.

 

I think Assault and Tactical Squads should support and complement each other. Debating about the superior utility of one of the two is fine in theory, but on the table the combination of both squads is something only the most elite units can stand against

I completely agree with this point. I think perhaps my opposition to using a Rhino is that I always feel as if you are underutilizing the other element of the Tactical squad, the heavy weapon. But if I had thought of it in your terms, about the bolters more so then the one heavy weapon weapon they are quite useful for hosing a target. Pretty much what I do when I they come down in the drop-pod.

[Deschenus Maximus]

While I don't feel that tacs are as optimal as they could be, I find them very useful for 2 reasons:

1- Flexibility: When geared properly, they can fulfil a multitude of roles with a degree of effectiveness. Also, Combat Squads is a major boon to tacticals as it allows them to split into 2 scoring units: one backfield and one offensive.

2- Inconspicuousness: Due to their bad rep, tacs tend to get overlooked by my opponents until it is too late and my staunch troopers speed off in their Rhino to capture a neglected objective.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Ahhh, Snorri, the red, it burns! And from a Blood Angels players that's saying something!

 

Yep, anything that cant bypassing that Feel no Pain is just not going to hurt Death Company. They are amazingly resilient to small arms fire. Even with the danger from heavy weapons fire I guess I just find it surprising that you don't always deepstrike them, controlling Death Company can be quite difficult when they are not packed inside a Rhino, Razorback etc. ready to pop out.

 

 

Heh, yes, sorry for that. ;)

 

Had some of those Eldar snipers(you know, the really good ones) fire a hail of rounds at my dc in fourth edition, no(!) rending wounds, I made half of my armour- but all of my FnP saves. The dude's jaw smacked the table in best Tex Avery cartoon manner. Of course, my turn the DC chopped through his infantry mobs.

 

Controlling DC has never been an issue for me with the new codex. When I don't deepstrike my DC, then I place them behind a building with no LoS so that I can at least have the chance to point in the direction they should go. When I start the assault, my speeders take out fast threats such as Raiders or skimmers which would be a magnet for these raging madmen, allowing them to concentrate on the squishy infantry squads. Lemartes, two Powerweapons and Jumppacks are the usual loadout. Last game I smacked down a squad of Grey Hunters and half of my opponent's Terminator Wolf Guard, which was enough dead stuff to justify the squad.

 

 

I completely agree with this point. I think perhaps my opposition to using a Rhino is that I always feel as if you are underutilizing the other element of the Tactical squad, the heavy weapon. But if I had thought of it in your terms, about the bolters more so then the one heavy weapon weapon they are quite useful for hosing a target. Pretty much what I do when I they come down in the drop-pod.

 

I'm glad that we came to an agreement on this. Deschenus Maximus also mentioned a very important aspect, the flexibility. The heavy weapon is there to provide the possibilty of facing and threatening different types of units.

With the wide range of transport options, the Tactical Squad can be a very strong supporting element in almost every marine army.

 

 

On a fluff note: All those players who openheartly disregard the Tactical Marines...remember the time when you stood in front of your local GW or independent seller and the Space Marines caught your attention. You bought the codex, read through the background of creating a Space Marine, the long process of physical and psychological training, turning a young man into an superwarrior.

You read the part of the battles in which a small squad of those warriors stood hours and hours against traitors and foul xenos, precisely mowing down the waves of evil creatures and mad men with disciplined salvoes of bolt-rounds. Their roaring described as the roar of thunder, explosive shells tearing human, eldar and chitin-covered flesh apart, every salvo accompanied with the litanies of the righteous. Heavy bolters shooting fist-sized rounds with high firing rate into massed enemy formations, heads and bodies exploding in the hail of bullets, more grenades then actual rounds.

The promethium spit out by flame weapons cleansing the earth from traitors, aliens and witches, screams of dying men and creatures fill the heated air, while the assault comes to a halt. At this sign of weakness and confusion amongst his enemies, the Sergeant, a proud and gritty veteran of hundreds of battles raises a chainsword, commanding the squad to eliminate the unlucky survivors in the heat of close combat.

Knives are drawn, grenades accurately thrown into key positions, forcing the foe to bite the Emperor's holy dust, while covering the marines' assault. Once engaged, the weakened enemies of the Imperium see 10 of the Emperor's Finest dismembering arms and heads with ease, vox-casters submit prayers and litanies and their warcry is far more terrifying to the enemy. Every blow is carried out with unmatched precision and celerity, splatters of blood fill the air as chainsword and combat knives take their terrible tribute, easily overwhelming the enemy forces.

 

At this point, you know why you're buying a Tactical Squad. Because they kick :D .

 

 

 

Snorri

[d503]

That won't help your tactical marines when they catch a battlecannon shell with their face.

[Glendor]

Ahhh, Snorri, the red, it burns! And from a Blood Angels players that's saying something!

 

Yep, anything that cant bypassing that Feel no Pain is just not going to hurt Death Company. They are amazingly resilient to small arms fire. Even with the danger from heavy weapons fire I guess I just find it surprising that you don't always deepstrike them, controlling Death Company can be quite difficult when they are not packed inside a Rhino, Razorback etc. ready to pop out.

 

 

Heh, yes, sorry for that. :D

 

Had some of those Eldar snipers(you know, the really good ones) fire a hail of rounds at my dc in fourth edition, no(!) rending wounds, I made half of my armour- but all of my FnP saves. The dude's jaw smacked the table in best Tex Avery cartoon manner. Of course, my turn the DC chopped through his infantry mobs.

 

Controlling DC has never been an issue for me with the new codex. When I don't deepstrike my DC, then I place them behind a building with no LoS so that I can at least have the chance to point in the direction they should go. :o When I start the assault, my speeders take out fast threats such as Raiders or skimmers which would be a magnet for these raging madmen, allowing them to concentrate on the squishy infantry squads. Lemartes, two Powerweapons and Jumppacks are the usual loadout. Last game I smacked down a squad of Grey Hunters and half of my opponent's Terminator Wolf Guard, which was enough dead stuff to justify the squad.

 

 

I completely agree with this point. I think perhaps my opposition to using a Rhino is that I always feel as if you are underutilizing the other element of the Tactical squad, the heavy weapon. But if I had thought of it in your terms, about the bolters more so then the one heavy weapon weapon they are quite useful for hosing a target. Pretty much what I do when I they come down in the drop-pod.

 

I'm glad that we came to an agreement on this. Deschenus Maximus also mentioned a very important aspect, the flexibility. The heavy weapon is there to provide the possibilty of facing and threatening different types of units.

With the wide range of transport options, the Tactical Squad can be a very strong supporting element in almost every marine army. :)

 

 

On a fluff note: All those players who openheartly disregard the Tactical Marines...remember the time when you stood in front of your local GW or independent seller and the Space Marines caught your attention. You bought the codex, read through the background of creating a Space Marine, the long process of physical and psychological training, turning a young man into an superwarrior.

You read the part of the battles in which a small squad of those warriors stood hours and hours against traitors and foul xenos, precisely mowing down the waves of evil creatures and mad men with disciplined salvoes of bolt-rounds. Their roaring described as the roar of thunder, explosive shells tearing human, eldar and chitin-covered flesh apart, every salvo accompanied with the litanies of the righteous. Heavy bolters shooting fist-sized rounds with high firing rate into massed enemy formations, heads and bodies exploding in the hail of bullets, more grenades then actual rounds.

The promethium spit out by flame weapons cleansing the earth from traitors, aliens and witches, screams of dying men and creatures fill the heated air, while the assault comes to a halt. At this sign of weakness and confusion amongst his enemies, the Sergeant, a proud and gritty veteran of hundreds of battles raises a chainsword, commanding the squad to eliminate the unlucky survivors in the heat of close combat.

Knives are drawn, grenades accurately thrown into key positions, forcing the foe to bite the Emperor's holy dust, while covering the marines' assault. Once engaged, the weakened enemies of the Imperium see 10 of the Emperor's Finest dismembering arms and heads with ease, vox-casters submit prayers and litanies and their warcry is far more terrifying to the enemy. Every blow is carried out with unmatched precision and celerity, splatters of blood fill the air as chainsword and combat knives take their terrible tribute, easily overwhelming the enemy forces.

 

At this point, you know why you're buying a Tactical Squad. Because they kick :) .

 

 

 

Snorri

 

That is almost more convincing than this whole thread lol

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Yeah, well, I picked B.A based on that their are bonkers. I've dreamt of since 3rd to have ASM troops, as that is bonkers. And now I can have that =)