traitors in loyal leigons

[guthmaer]

did any loyal leigons have traitors in them cause if the likes of world eaters and death guard etc can have loyalist. it would seem feesable that a few membersof the loyalist turned on the others

[Dark Scipio]

did any loyal leigons have traitors in them cause if the likes of world eaters and death guard etc can have loyalist. it would seem feesable that a few membersof the loyalist turned on the others

 

 

Hardly. While the traitor Marines followed at least their traitor Primarchs, Marines from the loyal Legion would have to betray both their Primarch and the Emperor, only to be an outsider amongst the Traitors.

[MaveriK]

Umm Dark Angels? Luthor, or was it the Lion? LOL jk

[guthmaer]

but surly they are free to think what the traitore might of thought the loyalist in traitor leigons betrayed their primarch wishes.so it seems feesable that it could happen in reverse in loyalist leigions pheraps infulanced by campaigns with traitors and forming bonds or through trickery or they feel their cause to be just.considering when horus came out with his declaration of war civil war sprang up every where.

[Perrin]

Like Maverik said, Dark Angels. And i doubt there are any chapters who havent lost a single marine to temptation in their whole history, but at the time of the Heresy there arent any that have been written about at the moment. I wouldnt bet any money on there not being any traitor loyalists though.

[ICHD?]

Umm Dark Angels? Luthor, or was it the Lion? LOL jk

 

Well, according to one of the Dark Angels books, I forget which:

 

 

DA weren't caught in warp storms, The Lion was waiting to see which side won!!

 

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Astelan said that...

 

And we all know he cannot be trusted as he is a traitor...read savage weapons? in Age of Darkness for an accurate take on that specific idea...

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Alpha Legion? They have traitors but are " Loyal"..................

[ICHD?]

Alpha Legion? They have traitors but are " Loyal"..................

 

Not quite.

 

Alpharius and Omegron were loyal, but some of the Alpha Legion seem to have forgotten that or just plain don't care.

 

[Ubermensch Commander]

Short answer: No.

 

Barring the Dark Angels, there seemed to be no cohesive or substantial elements of traitor forces in the Loyalist Legions.

 

Why should they go traitor? They were the glorious prodigy of a mighty ruler, given long life and unimaginable power in honored service to the dominant power amongst the stars, something they had just fought and bled and died to create.

Whereas the traitors had elements within them as still loyal for the aforementioned reasons. Spitting on oaths of loyalty and brotherhood just as they are about to enter a proposed golden age is foolish, selfish, pathetic, and counter-productive.

 

Caveat- Of course....this could all be Retconned at some point. :rolleyes:

[Don the Oiler]

this could all be Retconned at some point. :rolleyes:

 

which is more rule than exception, considering the franchise we're talking about

[Ubermensch Commander]

this could all be Retconned at some point. :rolleyes:

 

which is more rule than exception, considering the franchise we're talking about

 

Why sure! But for now it is absolute TRUTH!!!!!! :)

[Doghouse]

It is possible I guess but the main traitors came from those legions that accepted the warrior lodges.

 

Maybe some turned during the siege of Terra? A few of the Imperial army regiments did.

[Codicier Lucion]

I've always suspected that a few of the Space Wolves who attacked Prospero were traitors, perhaps either goading Russ on or silencing anyone who might bring truth to him that Magnus was still loyal. Though i'll admit i'm saying this without having read Prospero Burns.

 

In addition to this, I can see some of the Blood Angels at Signus Prime either becoming possessed or turning traitor.

[spu00sed]

I'm sure it is possible for individual squads and companies that have been deployed in expedition fleets apart from their brothers might turn.

 

They wouldn’t have the pressure of the legion and their Primarch to force them to stay loyal. They would be guided by their hearts and souls (though none would admit to following their souls).

 

Look at the number of astartes we have seen who have been separated from their legions who haven’t followed their legions into damnation.

[Dark Scipio]

In addition to this, I can see some of the Blood Angels at Signus Prime either becoming possessed or turning traitor.

 

How? Why?

[Prathios]

I've always suspected that a few of the Space Wolves who attacked Prospero were traitors, perhaps either goading Russ on or silencing anyone who might bring truth to him that Magnus was still loyal. Though i'll admit i'm saying this without having read Prospero Burns.

 

In addition to this, I can see some of the Blood Angels at Signus Prime either becoming possessed or turning traitor.

 

Unlikely, the wolves were fiercely loyal to the Emperor. They were religiously loyal to Russ as well. You should read Prospero Burns. I don't see any of the pre and during heresy wolves being anything other than staunch loyalists. It would be like a traitor Imp Fist.

[Dominicus]

I've always suspected that a few of the Space Wolves who attacked Prospero were traitors, perhaps either goading Russ on or silencing anyone who might bring truth to him that Magnus was still loyal. Though i'll admit i'm saying this without having read Prospero Burns.

 

In addition to this, I can see some of the Blood Angels at Signus Prime either becoming possessed or turning traitor.

 

Unlikely, the wolves were fiercely loyal to the Emperor. They were religiously loyal to Russ as well. You should read Prospero Burns. I don't see any of the pre and during heresy wolves being anything other than staunch loyalists. It would be like a traitor Imp Fist.

But doesn't it say somewhere that the Grey Knights are the only Chapter that can claim having no Marine ever turn traitor? So, that means, somewhere along the line, A Space Wolf and even an Imperial Fist, probably even *shudder* an Ultramarine turned traitor.

 

Thoughts?

[Corsair]

I could see it happening in isolated incidents, as was said above.

 

Picture a small Blood Angels (or whoever) fleet, isolated from the rest of the Legion. Suddenly a Sons of Horus strike cruiser shows up.

 

Son of Horus: "Brothers! We come bearing terrible news: The Emperor has betrayed us all! He intends to turn himself into a living God, dooming humanity to the darkness of worship and religious idolatry."

 

Blood Angel: "Say what?"

 

Son of Horus: "It's true, brother! Even now, fully half the Primarchs have pledged allegiance to the Warmaster, and surely more will come to see reason. Your own lord is the closest of brothers to Horus, surely the Blood Angels will join our quest to confront the Emperor and persuade him from his madness."

 

Blood Angel: "Sounds like a plan!"

 

Obviously it wouldn't be that simple, but an isolated incident like that could easily snare a squad or two, and once they were ensconced with the traitors, any lies they were told to get them there wouldn't matter anymore as Horus, Erebus, and co got their gribbly Chaos tentacles into them. It'd be advantageous to Horus as well as he'd be able to hold them up as an example and potentially convert (or at least demoralise) other loyalists.

[Codicier Lucion]

In addition to this, I can see some of the Blood Angels at Signus Prime either becoming possessed or turning traitor.

 

How? Why?

 

Prolonged corruption to Chaos, influence via daemons a-la subtle methods (think Fulgrim or Isador Akios) or just outright possession. They were fighting the daemons for a while and had psychic contact with them upon entering the system.

 

Unlikely, the wolves were fiercely loyal to the Emperor. They were religiously loyal to Russ as well. You should read Prospero Burns. I don't see any of the pre and during heresy wolves being anything other than staunch loyalists. It would be like a traitor Imp Fist.

 

Well, I can still see one individual or another being influenced into turning traitor due to pride or hubris. They were still using librarians even after the verdict on Nikea and I can think of a few who were convinced they could do no wrong.

 

But doesn't it say somewhere that the Grey Knights are the only Chapter that can claim having no Marine ever turn traitor? So, that means, somewhere along the line, A Space Wolf and even an Imperial Fist, probably even *shudder* an Ultramarine turned traitor.

 

Thoughts?

 

Indeed. But that was after ten thousand years of fighting Chaos.

 

And if the new codex is anything to go by they've technically all turned heretic via use of daemon weapons, slaughtering innocents for their blood and alliances with chaos, xenos etc. They just get a free pass by being immune to Chaos.

 

Alright, rant over.

[Prathios]

I've always suspected that a few of the Space Wolves who attacked Prospero were traitors, perhaps either goading Russ on or silencing anyone who might bring truth to him that Magnus was still loyal. Though i'll admit i'm saying this without having read Prospero Burns.

 

In addition to this, I can see some of the Blood Angels at Signus Prime either becoming possessed or turning traitor.

 

Unlikely, the wolves were fiercely loyal to the Emperor. They were religiously loyal to Russ as well. You should read Prospero Burns. I don't see any of the pre and during heresy wolves being anything other than staunch loyalists. It would be like a traitor Imp Fist.

But doesn't it say somewhere that the Grey Knights are the only Chapter that can claim having no Marine ever turn traitor? So, that means, somewhere along the line, A Space Wolf and even an Imperial Fist, probably even *shudder* an Ultramarine turned traitor.

 

Thoughts?

 

I know for a fact of several traitor wolves, but they were not from the legions era. See the legions were not really aware of chaos or affected the same way then as they are now. The reason so many chapters turned traitor was their absolute devotion to their primarch. The Wolves at this time though would 100% have gone with Russ if he stayed loyal. They believed they were the Emperors chosen executioners whose duty it was to lay low the heretic. Prospero was warned, the wolves were the consequence, it required no heresy to put into motion. After all Magnus doomed mankind with one spell to the 10k years of Emperorless dark.

 

Even in the scenario above with the Blood Angels, the Astartes would have demanded proof or wished to consult with their primarch before doing anything. Dark Angels and their fool of a primarch aside, there has yet to be even one traitor loyalist astartes mentioned. It simply doesn't make sense for one to exist in the reverse. After the HH when the primarchs were no longer around and the corrupting influence of chaos spread throughout the cosmos, then you started to see a heretic Imp Fist or Wolf. (Actually Wolves are a bit common in 40k because of their vicious nature, they fall to Khornate teachings easier than some, same goes for Blood Angels.)

[Prathios]

And if the new codex is anything to go by they've technically all turned heretic via use of daemon weapons, slaughtering innocents for their blood and alliances with chaos, xenos etc. They just get a free pass by being immune to Chaos.

 

Alright, rant over.

 

Free pass my butt. Borrowing this idea from others who play GK, I prefer to feel that the daemonhunters got new rules... but as far as I can tell all the fluff pages in my books seem to be missing, it's very strange. Matt Wards GK fluff is about as believable as as his Blood Angels allying with their honor bound Necron buddies. Very little of the fluff in that codex is worth citing or using as a retcon. It just isn't consistent with the main body of stuff we already know. It's like with comic books, you use all the things that are consistent and do your best to ignore the moments of face palming silliness. In this case sacrificing sisters to perform blood magic. ;)

[Corsair]

Even in the scenario above with the Blood Angels, the Astartes would have demanded proof or wished to consult with their primarch before doing anything. Dark Angels and their fool of a primarch aside, there has yet to be even one traitor loyalist astartes mentioned. It simply doesn't make sense for one to exist in the reverse. After the HH when the primarchs were no longer around and the corrupting influence of chaos spread throughout the cosmos, then you started to see a heretic Imp Fist or Wolf. (Actually Wolves are a bit common in 40k because of their vicious nature, they fall to Khornate teachings easier than some, same goes for Blood Angels.)

 

See I don't think they would automatically try to contact their Primarch, not to mention that Chaos began to mess royally with communications so they could well not be able to. We are seeing examples of Loyalists standing up directly to their Primarchs in the Traitor Legions, as well as examples of isolated members of the Traitor Legions refusing to turn.

 

If all that is the case, then I don't see why isolated incidents of Loyalists turning in these sorts of circumstances is all that unfeasible, especially in a situation where the Loyalists in question are independent of the rest of their Legion, and have close ties to one or more of the Traitor Primarchs/Legions (Sang with Horus, Ferrus with Fulgrim, etc.), and are perhaps unaware of the full extent of the betrayal and slaughter of the Loyalist Legions.

 

Now that is a very large selection of caveats, and I completely agree that it would be extremely unlikely to happen, but it's not impossible. An individual or squad here or there at the most, with a reasonable chance of being slaughtered anyway when Angron gets hungry or whatever.

[Prathios]

Even in the scenario above with the Blood Angels, the Astartes would have demanded proof or wished to consult with their primarch before doing anything. Dark Angels and their fool of a primarch aside, there has yet to be even one traitor loyalist astartes mentioned. It simply doesn't make sense for one to exist in the reverse. After the HH when the primarchs were no longer around and the corrupting influence of chaos spread throughout the cosmos, then you started to see a heretic Imp Fist or Wolf. (Actually Wolves are a bit common in 40k because of their vicious nature, they fall to Khornate teachings easier than some, same goes for Blood Angels.)

 

See I don't think they would automatically try to contact their Primarch, not to mention that Chaos began to mess royally with communications so they could well not be able to. We are seeing examples of Loyalists standing up directly to their Primarchs in the Traitor Legions, as well as examples of isolated members of the Traitor Legions refusing to turn.

 

If all that is the case, then I don't see why isolated incidents of Loyalists turning in these sorts of circumstances is all that unfeasible, especially in a situation where the Loyalists in question are independent of the rest of their Legion, and have close ties to one or more of the Traitor Primarchs/Legions (Sang with Horus, Ferrus with Fulgrim, etc.), and are perhaps unaware of the full extent of the betrayal and slaughter of the Loyalist Legions.

 

Now that is a very large selection of caveats, and I completely agree that it would be extremely unlikely to happen, but it's not impossible. An individual or squad here or there at the most, with a reasonable chance of being slaughtered anyway when Angron gets hungry or whatever.

 

That's because you're leaving out the simple most important factor. Loyalists from the traitor legions were remaining faithful to the Emperor. See in a pure loyalist legion like the SW or IF, you have a synergy between doing what the Emperor said and doing what your Primarch said. This leaves no room for questioning in the eyes of a Homo Astartes who is bred for loyalty. When the traitor primarchs finally admitted they had turned there was a rift in loyalty ripped open. Do you follow your dad or your grandpa? That may be simplistic but that's what it boiled down to. Most of them chose to follow dear old dad, but some decided that dad was wrong in turning on gramps.

 

When you reverse this it makes no sense. Dad and Grandpa both think we should fight this civil war, but for some reason you sided with some guy you've never sworn loyalty to in your life? There was no reason for them to turn traitor on both the Emperor and their Primarch, there is simply no reason for a marine to do this. The only reason Horus commanded everyone was as a proxy for the Emperor. When he abandoned the Emperor he loses his authority in the eyes of the marines in question.

 

So simply, the loyalist from traitor legions sided with the Emperor because they had a division in their loyalties. There was no division in the loyal legions, and as such no reason for them to turn. The thought wouldn't even occur to them.

[Corsair]

Even in the scenario above with the Blood Angels, the Astartes would have demanded proof or wished to consult with their primarch before doing anything. Dark Angels and their fool of a primarch aside, there has yet to be even one traitor loyalist astartes mentioned. It simply doesn't make sense for one to exist in the reverse. After the HH when the primarchs were no longer around and the corrupting influence of chaos spread throughout the cosmos, then you started to see a heretic Imp Fist or Wolf. (Actually Wolves are a bit common in 40k because of their vicious nature, they fall to Khornate teachings easier than some, same goes for Blood Angels.)

 

See I don't think they would automatically try to contact their Primarch, not to mention that Chaos began to mess royally with communications so they could well not be able to. We are seeing examples of Loyalists standing up directly to their Primarchs in the Traitor Legions, as well as examples of isolated members of the Traitor Legions refusing to turn.

 

If all that is the case, then I don't see why isolated incidents of Loyalists turning in these sorts of circumstances is all that unfeasible, especially in a situation where the Loyalists in question are independent of the rest of their Legion, and have close ties to one or more of the Traitor Primarchs/Legions (Sang with Horus, Ferrus with Fulgrim, etc.), and are perhaps unaware of the full extent of the betrayal and slaughter of the Loyalist Legions.

 

Now that is a very large selection of caveats, and I completely agree that it would be extremely unlikely to happen, but it's not impossible. An individual or squad here or there at the most, with a reasonable chance of being slaughtered anyway when Angron gets hungry or whatever.

 

That's because you're leaving out the simple most important factor. Loyalists from the traitor legions were remaining faithful to the Emperor. See in a pure loyalist legion like the SW or IF, you have a synergy between doing what the Emperor said and doing what your Primarch said. This leaves no room for questioning in the eyes of a Homo Astartes who is bred for loyalty. When the traitor primarchs finally admitted they had turned there was a rift in loyalty ripped open. Do you follow your dad or your grandpa? That may be simplistic but that's what it boiled down to. Most of them chose to follow dear old dad, but some decided that dad was wrong in turning on gramps.

 

When you reverse this it makes no sense. Dad and Grandpa both think we should fight this civil war, but for some reason you sided with some guy you've never sworn loyalty to in your life? There was no reason for them to turn traitor on both the Emperor and their Primarch, there is simply no reason for a marine to do this. The only reason Horus commanded everyone was as a proxy for the Emperor. When he abandoned the Emperor he loses his authority in the eyes of the marines in question.

 

So simply, the loyalist from traitor legions sided with the Emperor because they had a division in their loyalties. There was no division in the loyal legions, and as such no reason for them to turn. The thought wouldn't even occur to them.

 

Marines may be loyal to a fault yes, especially to the Emperor, and yet did we not see examples of how utterly demoralising the Big E's exit from the Great Crusade was? There was a lot of anger and frustration, from Primarchs on down to guys scrubbing decks on troop ships.

 

If a loyalist was told that the Emperor had quit the Great Crusade - already a perceived insult to the fighting men he abandons, especially with the subsequent dispatching of tithe collectors, etc - to go to Terra and pursue Godhood, something that flies directly in the face of what they were told, what they have been fighting for, and what they believe in, and they have to make a choice for themselves, divorced from the possibility of running to your Primarch and getting his opinion...

 

Loken, et al refused to turn because they believed in the Emperor and his goals (in the broadest sense, there is obviously subtext for all the Loyalists from the Traitor Legions), I do not see it as inconceivable that Loyalists bitter about the Emperor's abandonment of the Great Crusade to (supposedly) betray the very ideals they have fought and bled and died for, might consider going over to Horus, especially if it were presented with honeyed words and further lies.

 

To use your analogy, if you are being told Gramps is a filthy traitor that has rendered your entire purpose for existing a lie, and your absent Dad's beloved brother says he wants you to come join him, and that Dad will be along any minute to help...there's a decent chance you might grab dear old Uncle Horus' hand and go skipping off to visit Grampa Tim in his big house on Terra for some terse conversation.