traitors in loyal leigons

[Prathios]

Marines may be loyal to a fault yes, especially to the Emperor, and yet did we not see examples of how utterly demoralising the Big E's exit from the Great Crusade was? There was a lot of anger and frustration, from Primarchs on down to guys scrubbing decks on troop ships.

 

If a loyalist was told that the Emperor had quit the Great Crusade - already a perceived insult to the fighting men he abandons, especially with the subsequent dispatching of tithe collectors, etc - to go to Terra and pursue Godhood, something that flies directly in the face of what they were told, what they have been fighting for, and what they believe in, and they have to make a choice for themselves, divorced from the possibility of running to your Primarch and getting his opinion...

 

Loken, et al refused to turn because they believed in the Emperor and his goals (in the broadest sense, there is obviously subtext for all the Loyalists from the Traitor Legions), I do not see it as inconceivable that Loyalists bitter about the Emperor's abandonment of the Great Crusade to (supposedly) betray the very ideals they have fought and bled and died for, might consider going over to Horus, especially if it were presented with honeyed words and further lies.

 

To use your analogy, if you are being told Gramps is a filthy traitor that has rendered your entire purpose for existing a lie, and your absent Dad's beloved brother says he wants you to come join him, and that Dad will be along any minute to help...there's a decent chance you might grab dear old Uncle Horus' hand and go skipping off to visit Grampa Tim in his big house on Terra for some terse conversation.

 

But in your example they are not traitors at all. You've created a way in which they can stay true to their primarch because they are being lied to. You're not a traitor if you didn't choose to betray anyone. As soon as they have access to the truth or their primarch then bingo, they are loyalists again. There is no way for you to divorce them from their primarch forever. At some point they have to find out they were lied to, and in this case they are killed off by Horus and crew or they make a glorious last stand to regain the honor that was robbed of them. So the minute they have to fight a brother legion the argument breaks down as the truth can't be eternally kept away. That means you really don't disagree with me at all. Under this pretense it's possible for them to get duped into working with Horus if but the shortest of terms, but as soon as they learn the truth they would not abandon both the Emperor and the Primarch, that would be unheard of.

[Corsair]

Marines may be loyal to a fault yes, especially to the Emperor, and yet did we not see examples of how utterly demoralising the Big E's exit from the Great Crusade was? There was a lot of anger and frustration, from Primarchs on down to guys scrubbing decks on troop ships.

 

If a loyalist was told that the Emperor had quit the Great Crusade - already a perceived insult to the fighting men he abandons, especially with the subsequent dispatching of tithe collectors, etc - to go to Terra and pursue Godhood, something that flies directly in the face of what they were told, what they have been fighting for, and what they believe in, and they have to make a choice for themselves, divorced from the possibility of running to your Primarch and getting his opinion...

 

Loken, et al refused to turn because they believed in the Emperor and his goals (in the broadest sense, there is obviously subtext for all the Loyalists from the Traitor Legions), I do not see it as inconceivable that Loyalists bitter about the Emperor's abandonment of the Great Crusade to (supposedly) betray the very ideals they have fought and bled and died for, might consider going over to Horus, especially if it were presented with honeyed words and further lies.

 

To use your analogy, if you are being told Gramps is a filthy traitor that has rendered your entire purpose for existing a lie, and your absent Dad's beloved brother says he wants you to come join him, and that Dad will be along any minute to help...there's a decent chance you might grab dear old Uncle Horus' hand and go skipping off to visit Grampa Tim in his big house on Terra for some terse conversation.

 

But in your example they are not traitors at all. You've created a way in which they can stay true to their primarch because they are being lied to. You're not a traitor if you didn't choose to betray anyone. As soon as they have access to the truth or their primarch then bingo, they are loyalists again. There is no way for you to divorce them from their primarch forever. At some point they have to find out they were lied to, and in this case they are killed off by Horus and crew or they make a glorious last stand to regain the honor that was robbed of them. So the minute they have to fight a brother legion the argument breaks down as the truth can't be eternally kept away. That means you really don't disagree with me at all. Under this pretense it's possible for them to get duped into working with Horus if but the shortest of terms, but as soon as they learn the truth they would not abandon both the Emperor and the Primarch, that would be unheard of.

 

Ah, but you are underestimating the corrupting influence of Horus, as well as the simple fact that each step upon the road to damnation is easier than the last.

 

Once betrayal of the Emperor is agreed with, you are a traitor regardless of whether you were duped. With this in mind, it is not much of a leap from 'Sanguinius will join us soon,' to 'Sanguinius has been mislead, we must show him the truth,', especially with the extraordinary capacity the human (and transhuman) mind has for justifying our own actions as 'right'

 

To put it another way, you don't flirt with treachery and simply walk away with your hands clean when you are proven wrong, and not every mislead traitor will have the courage and fortitude to die fighting because they backed the wrong team; in for a penny and all that. Add in the corrupting influence of Chaos, and this process becomes even more likely to stick after the initial fall.

 

If loyalty to Primarch and Emperor was enough to ensure no Loyalist Marine would turn, why do we have renegades in the 41st millennium?

[Culebras]

did any loyal leigons have traitors in them cause if the likes of world eaters and death guard etc can have loyalist. it would seem feesable that a few membersof the loyalist turned on the others

 

The key phrase here is "few." If you are asking if say, a 100+ company sized force of imperial fist marines decided to suddenly throw their lot in with Horus, you are going to be disappointed. Marines are ultra-conditioned for loyalty, obedience, and following orders. It would take an exceptionally strong and charismatic individual to convince them to turn against the Emperor (Luther for example).

 

On the other hand, the Legions were big organizations with inconsistent rosters of marines that were constantly taking casualties across battlefields separated by millions, if not billions, of kilometers. (possibly even light years). With that in mind, it is hypothetically possible that a squad of space marines may have become separated and corrupted or turned to the service of the enemy. However, if you are going to pursue that line of reasoning, you first have to answer two HUGE questions.

 

1: How were they turned?

2: Why did they turn?

 

They may sound similar but they are not. The 1st answers the questions of setting and plot. What happened? What events led to their corruption? Its the answering of the who, the what, the where, and the when. The 2nd answers the Why. Its the matter of explaining the pathos and reasoning behind the decision. The 2nd question helps us get into the marines mind and understand why they would make such a momentous and terrible choice.

 

Its very sloppy and lazy writing to say that a marine was simply "corrupted." Corrupted by who? A demon? a demon weapon? a fellow traitor? Some xeno? where was their captain? their chaplain? Where was the rest of their damn legion. How did no one see this coming? those are questions that deserve to be answered.

 

With that in mind, lets imagine a hypothetical squad of marines. Perhaps they were separated, or abandoned, or ended up behind enemy lines. being alone, away from their primarch and legion, helps to establish the setting. Isolation can do funny things to people. Lets take the setting a bit further; perhaps they were in a hostile environment, or facing a strange or terrible enemy. On the other hand, maybe the enemy wasn't strange or terrible at all, but normal, possibly even innocent, but the Marines were required to do terrible things. Outside of the support structures found in a huge army, a squad of marines would be more vulnerable to internal tension and dissent. Individuals can open up, expressing private views or opinions that they mighty never share in large groups.

 

From this idea of isolation, you can build in elements and characters. The damning item for instance (The one ring is a classic example of this in literature) or the temptor (or temptress). On the other hand, you can have the victim-you-can't-forget, or the antagonistic commander that opposes the squad. Whatever the case, you continue to build the scenario. A lack of black-or-white morality can be key here as it allows for the development of doubt. Which is all leading up the the big question: Why

 

The Why is key to helping understand what led to the decision to turn, and there are many reasons i could propose. Ex. the marines was angry and filled with righteous indignation over something. The marines was jealous or envious or greedy or had some internal trait that led to their fall. The marines held a grudge against their brothers, commander or primarch, or perhaps had some debt of honor or pride to a traitor they refused to break. the list goes on. A good why begins with slow small steps that end up snowballing into an uncontrollable fall. Perhaps the Marines were deluded or deceived, or they might have simply been inferior and prone to temptation. Not all men, (and certainly not all marines) are made of the same stuff. one flawed individual could have led a whole squad into damnation. In any case, the point here is that no one simply wakes up one day and decides to betray everything and everyone they ever stood for. Its a journey measured in footsteps, not Kilometers.

 

Take for instance Horus. He had a reason and logic that guided his actions. If you asked him why he did it, he would be able to give you a very nuanced and perfectly reasonable answer. On the other hand, if you asked Magnus, he would probably respond that hehad the best of intentions but things didn't turn out the way he planned and now he can't go back.

 

So in conclusion, is it possible that there were traitor marines from within Loyal legions? I would answer yes, but...they would have been very few and it could only have occurred under extremely isolated and unique circumstances where the military structure of Brother, legion, and primarch had disappeared. It just doesn't make sense for a large number of marines to spontaneously switch sides without a VERY good and realistic justification.

[Codicier Lucion]

Free pass my butt. Borrowing this idea from others who play GK, I prefer to feel that the daemonhunters got new rules... but as far as I can tell all the fluff pages in my books seem to be missing, it's very strange. Matt Wards GK fluff is about as believable as as his Blood Angels allying with their honor bound Necron buddies. Very little of the fluff in that codex is worth citing or using as a retcon. It just isn't consistent with the main body of stuff we already know. It's like with comic books, you use all the things that are consistent and do your best to ignore the moments of face palming silliness. In this case sacrificing sisters to perform blood magic. <_<

 

I wish that was an option. Unlike Countdown to Final Crisis or Marvel Civil War, Ward just keeps sticking to his bad ideas and forcing his fanfiction on people. He's being given the Black Templars to write, Emperor knows what he's going to do to them due to his hatred for non codex chapters, and there's a strong indication he's doing the next Necrons.

His stuff is just going to end up replacing the decently written canon of 40K if he keeps being given codexes like this.

 

Anyway, getting back on topic, I can think of something which could be interesting: the missing legions. It's strongly suspected that they were absorbed into the Ultramarines, and as they might feel little loyalty to their new primarch would they rebel if they thought Horus would be a better person to back?

[Prathios]

Free pass my butt. Borrowing this idea from others who play GK, I prefer to feel that the daemonhunters got new rules... but as far as I can tell all the fluff pages in my books seem to be missing, it's very strange. Matt Wards GK fluff is about as believable as as his Blood Angels allying with their honor bound Necron buddies. Very little of the fluff in that codex is worth citing or using as a retcon. It just isn't consistent with the main body of stuff we already know. It's like with comic books, you use all the things that are consistent and do your best to ignore the moments of face palming silliness. In this case sacrificing sisters to perform blood magic. :)

 

I wish that was an option. Unlike Countdown to Final Crisis or Marvel Civil War, Ward just keeps sticking to his bad ideas and forcing his fanfiction on people. He's being given the Black Templars to write, Emperor knows what he's going to do to them due to his hatred for non codex chapters, and there's a strong indication he's doing the next Necrons.

His stuff is just going to end up replacing the decently written canon of 40K if he keeps being given codexes like this.

 

Anyway, getting back on topic, I can think of something which could be interesting: the missing legions. It's strongly suspected that they were absorbed into the Ultramarines, and as they might feel little loyalty to their new primarch would they rebel if they thought Horus would be a better person to back?

 

I'd been thinking of this but because we have no solid information on the missing legions or what happened to them I don't want to speculate too much. Though it is rumored in the books that the Ultramarines numbers swelled after the destruction of the lost legions.

[The Crimson Cartel]

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Every HH book describes in detail how EVERYONE held Horus in such high esteem before his tragic fall. It's entirely possible that individual marines could go and side with him. With the legions constantly fighting side by side, becoming close, sharing honors,etc. If there are loyal sons from traitor legions, then the obverse of the coin has to exist; traitor sons form loyal legions.

 

*As an aside, wasn't there an Iron Warriors short in one of the anthology books where they compete in Hurons gamesday, and it describes the main characters (one a renegade Raven Guard himself :) ) seeing marines with "loyal" legion insignia on there shoulders there? Albiet it was x'd out and with Red Corsairs over the top of it, and this isn't the HH, but still...some precedent exists...

 

-CC

[Olis]

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Every HH book describes in detail how EVERYONE held Horus in such high esteem before his tragic fall. It's entirely possible that individual marines could go and side with him. With the legions constantly fighting side by side, becoming close, sharing honors,etc. If there are loyal sons from traitor legions, then the obverse of the coin has to exist; traitor sons form loyal legions.

 

*As an aside, wasn't there an Iron Warriors short in one of the anthology books where they compete in Hurons gamesday, and it describes the main characters (one a renegade Raven Guard himself :P ) seeing marines with "loyal" legion insignia on there shoulders there? Albiet it was x'd out and with Red Corsairs over the top of it, and this isn't the HH, but still...some precedent exists...

 

-CC

 

By your admission, the short story in question is set ten thousand years after the HH. It is, by no means, a precedent. This is so long after, that the issue of loyal legion and traitor legion has been cemented and loyalist chapters now abound (instead of the old legion format). It's a moot point to cite a traitor from a loyal chapter as the argument over traitors in loyal legions is time specific. I know this sounds agressive and I do apologise but I felt I should say something about the aside before it could have potentially spawned a new avenue for arguementdebate. :P

 

And to stay on-topic: Although I understand the 'yes' camps argument and see the logic in individuals turning through coercion or circumstance, I feel, without canon supporting the claim, that the 'no' camp is where I'll sit. For now. :o

 

Edit: Typo.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'm fairly certain there'd have been some loyalist-manned Expeditionary Fleets in which the Marines had very, very little contact with their own Primarch, and came to feel abandoned. As such, they'd feel equally loyal to their ultimate commander, Horus, and be more easily swayed by the cults implemented by the Word Bearers. After all, half the Dark Angels fell, despite having to turn against both the Emperor and their Primarch, so arguing that single Companies might have gone traitor from other loyal Legions is an impossible circumstance, is absurd.

I'm not saying there would be large-scale treachery, but it's illogical to assume it couldn't have happened.

[Epistolary Exander]

I belive it is concievable that entire isolated companies of loyalist legion marines could have sided with Horus. The main reason for this would have been the use the Chaplain edict by the Word Bearers & other traitor legions during the build up to the heresy. Any chaplain, but in particular the Word Bearer's chaplains were prodigious orators & would have large potential to sway islated groups of marines to their cause.

 

Could you imagine what would happen if a Word Bearer chaplain visited such an isolated company, as an example a company of White Scars attached to a distant Expeditionary fleet in Segmentum Obscuras. The Chaplain arrives producing stories of the glorious achievements reached by the Sons of Hours, Word Bearers & etc due to the use of the warrior lodges & then slowly introduces the company of marines to ways of warrior lodge, under the aegis of bringing enlightenment in how Emperor's, their liege lord's golden legions operate. After the warrior lodge is extablished the Chaplain would then to slowly evolve his message, to dilute the White Scar's thoughts & opinions in line with his own agenda. Through this process the Word Bearer Chaplain has just gained 100s of additional marines for Horus's cause when the heresy breaks out.

 

Least that is my 2 cents.

[The Crimson Cartel]

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Every HH book describes in detail how EVERYONE held Horus in such high esteem before his tragic fall. It's entirely possible that individual marines could go and side with him. With the legions constantly fighting side by side, becoming close, sharing honors,etc. If there are loyal sons from traitor legions, then the obverse of the coin has to exist; traitor sons form loyal legions.

 

*As an aside, wasn't there an Iron Warriors short in one of the anthology books where they compete in Hurons gamesday, and it describes the main characters (one a renegade Raven Guard himself :) ) seeing marines with "loyal" legion insignia on there shoulders there? Albiet it was x'd out and with Red Corsairs over the top of it, and this isn't the HH, but still...some precedent exists...

 

-CC

 

By your admission, the short story in question is set ten thousand years after the HH. It is, by no means, a precedent. This is so long after, that the issue of loyal legion and traitor legion has been cemented and loyalist chapters now abound (instead of the old legion format). It's a moot point to cite a traitor from a loyal chapter as the argument over traitors in loyal legions is time specific. I know this sounds agressive and I do apologise but I felt I should say something about the aside before it could have potentially spawned a new avenue for arguementdebate. :P

 

And to stay on-topic: Although I understand the 'yes' camps argument and see the logic in individuals turning through coercion or circumstance, I feel, without canon supporting the claim, that the 'no' camp is where I'll sit. For now. ;)

 

Edit: Typo.

 

^

It had occurred to me after writing that, that my example wasn't precedent in terms of timeline at all. My bad, a poor word choice. Perhaps I should have been more specific and said that there has been previously written literary precedent about the topic of marines from loyal chapters turning.. Marines turning now, so why shouldn't it be possible for it to happen then? I still maintain that in theory (until we get a HH story of some kind,or we get to the end of the series and there are NO loyalist traitors,etc) that it is entirely possible.

[Paradill]

To disprove the theory of "If the Primarch and the Emperor both say the same thing the marine will definitely not fall to chaos" I give you Brother Sergeant Jubal.

 

 

WARNING: Minor spoilers for Horus Rising ensue. If you haven't read this book yet, go and buy/read the book before continuing. It's awesome.

 

 

 

Before the Heresy, before Horus was anything but a stressed out Primarch with the galaxy's weight on his shoulders, one of the Luna Wolves, Jubal, of Lokens' company wilingly allowed a demon to posses him. His jealousy and resentment at being passed over for Vipus was a gateway for chaos' insidious corruption to take root. A skim with a warp entity and he fell to chaos completely.

This was before Horus began to fall, before any such thing as betraying the Emperor was thought a possibility. If this could happen to a Luna Wolf when there were no chaos legions or corrupting influences other than themselves, it could happen to any marine, irrespective of their Primarchs' loyalties.

 

The ones who were there before the recovery of their primarch and resent the way the new command structure works. Those who are new to the legion and think they deserve more recognition. Those whop believe in their hearts of hearts that the actions their gene-father took are wrong. The ones who lost their brothers in needless battles for an Emperor who seems cold and aloof. There are multiple reasons to fall and in the crucible of heresy and the massacre at the Imperial Palace, reasons to stay loyal must've been stretched to breaking point. There is only so much blood you can spill before you start thinking about Khorne as a viable option.

 

Paradill