jbarket Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Hey guys, I'm curious how successful this psychic power has been for you on the table. I'm trying to build a Greywing army, and I really only see two realistic ways to deliver terminators in the new GK codex: units on the board with psychic communication and DSing, or using The Summoning. The problem with The Summoning is scattering. I like it conceptually, but having a strategy that includes deep strike mishaps seems problematic. So, how has it worked for you before? Success or disaster? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 servo skulls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2735912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Wouldn't touch The Summoning with a barge pole. Not unless it gets FAQed to work with a Teleport Homer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2735976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnothere Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Well now our army isn't fearless I tend to use it to move falling back units back up the table. Then you can regroup as nothing is within 6". Other times I've gotten units out of charge range, tbh I don't leave home without it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Heretic Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Mystics are your friend :angry: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Mystics are your friend :) Interesting..... They Mystic rule does not appear to list any restrictions like the teleport homer, it just says any unit ariving on the battlefield by deep strike. Given the unit in question is "removed from the tabletop and imediately placed anywhere within 6" of the librarian using the deep strike rules" it seems entirely possible this might work. However some might argue that the unit is not "ariving on the battlefield" so much as being relocated. Semantics strike again! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnothere Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 One thing I would like clearing up is Walkers and Summoning - just how many weapons can they fire? Moving flatout is way faster than what they normally do but in the rulebook it's down as NA rather then none. Also what's the concensus on Summoning immobilised vehicles? Yes or No? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Xeones Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Since most people already allow Vanilla Librarians using Gate of Infinity to use Homing Beacons to ignore scatter, I'd say that this is no different. I'd certainly let anyone with a Mystic ignore scatter for The Summoning just like any other DS move. That being said, I'd be really skeptical of any strategy that heavily relied on Summoning without the use of Mystics. Servo skulls can help, but they won't eliminate the problem entirely. Even with a servo skull reducing the scatter to a single D6, there's still a decent chance that you could mishap on the librarian or whatever unit he is attached to when you consider that you've only got a 6" window and you have to deploy the unit using standard DS placement rules. Any scatter of more than two or three inches toward the librarian is likely to cause a mishap since the first model you place must be at the center of the DSing unit. Vehicles with a WSF are even worse than squads because of the larger footprint. The tolerances for using the power are so tight and the units being summoned are typically so expensive, that it's just not worth the risk in my opinion. I'd say if you wanted to use The Summoning to the greatest effect, you'll want a Librarian and a mystic buried in a squad of DCA [offensive option for max carnage] or Crusaders [defensive option to protect your librarian] riding in an LRC or perhaps a Stormraven (libby providing it with a 3++ cover save). This gives you a fairly durable locus from which to Summon your other units and the large hull footprint of a Landraider or Stormraven (plus no scatter with Mystic) will make it easier to fit more Summoned units within 6". Combined with a Level 3 Librarian, you could pull up to 3 squads a turn to that unit. For a pure Greywing list with only servo skulls to help out, you could use Summoning, but I wouldn't heavily rely on it. EDIT: I'd allow a walker to fire both its weapons after being summoned. I see no reason why it wouldn't work. Walkers do not use the movement rules for normal vehicles --using instead the movement rules for infantry-- and therefore, are not subject to the normal limitations of vehicles. Also, for immobilized vehicles, I'd say it would probably be allowable since the rules for The Summoning do not forbid it, and the rules for WSFs say that the vehicles count as moving flat out rather than having actually moved flat out. that's just my take on it though. I'd gladly roll off with someone on this one without much of a fuss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 There is to many holes in the rule. In a different thread I argued at length and quoted out of the BRB that 'The Summoning' can't be used after a Librarian had just used Deep Strike to enter the board. Then there is the whole mess with Walkers and immobilized vehicles that was pointed out above. It really needs to be FAQed if for no other reason then to put an end to all of the arguments that keep popping up at my store. Tactically, I think it is kinda fun! It adds a little more speed to an army that doesn't have a lot of it. Its a great way to capitalize on a good round of shooting or a very successful round of assault. As for a must take power? I don't quite think so. I may use it once or twice right near the start of the game but I always go back to using my other powers to buff my troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbarket Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'd be interested to hear your reasons for why it can't be used after deep striking. I'm on the fence about that. It's an order of execution issue to me. Both are essentially at the start of the movement phase. If you could argue that DS happens first, then he's on the board, so I'd argue you could use The Summoning. However, if there's no clear way to define which event happens first... you see the problem. Basically, I think it's ambiguous. However, you actually found things in the BRB to support your argument. Can you link me over to that thread, or just summarize here? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnothere Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'll play devils advocate a little here with the summoning; DSing is the libbys movement so anything hapening after that isn't at the start of the libbys movemnt phase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resv Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Yeah I would be happy to! On page 94-95 of the basic rule book we get the rules for reserves and for deep striking. The rules for reserves are quite clear, you roll before the start of your movement phase to see which units can move onto the board. These units must start off the board and then deploy using their movement to enter which begins the movement phase, this is pretty clear cut and I think everyone can agree with this. The key thing to take away from all of this is that we roll for reserves before the movement phase and then we deploy which begins the movement phase. SO! This brings us to the Deep Strike rules. Where I base my argument for 'The Summoning' not working after Deep Striking is from two very particular things in the Deep Striking rule. First of all, the language of the rule is again pretty clear cut as seen on Pg.95 P.5 of the BRB "In the movement phase when they [The Deep Striking Unit] arrive, these units may not move any further..." The key here is "the movement phase when they arrive," there is no mention of "after they arrive" or "arriving before." This brings me to my second argument and that is the lack of language. There is no mention of Deep Striking units arriving before any other units, in fact it doesn't say anything about Deep Striking units arriving before other reserve or outflanking units. To be a bit more specific, on Pg.94 P.9 of the BRB "Once all the of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later." Nowhere does it say that deep striking units arrive before other reserve units, the only thing we can safely ascertain is that reserve units must be moved onto the board before any other units can be moved. As well, nowhere in the reserve rules does it declare that arriving reserve units move onto the board before the movement phase begins. This assumption by many players stems from the initial action of rolling for reserves at the top of the turn and just carrying over into deployment. I'm sorry to say that this isn't the case. However, this really needs to be FAQed as to clear up any lingering doubts one way or the other, once and for all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 One thing I would like clearing up is Walkers and Summoning - just how many weapons can they fire? All of them. Just like DSing, the Walker can't usually move Cruising Speed, but can shoot all thier weapons regardless of the speed they actually moved at. Also what's the concensus on Summoning immobilised vehicles? Yes or No? Yes. :lol: Since most people already allow Vanilla Librarians using Gate of Infinity to use Homing Beacons to ignore scatter Do they? I know people use Locator Beacons (potentially off drop pods), but not THs with GoI. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnothere Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Ah! I hadn't considered the Cruising speed argument, cheers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228322-your-experience-with-the-summoning/#findComment-2736737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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