henrywalker Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 As is her squad. So, no you can't go and sacrifice your Champion on one of her escorts, either. "Lady Malys is completely immune to the effects of psychic powers, as is any squad she joins." - Dark Eldar Codex You can't shoot her with Jaws, you can't sacrifice her with Brotherhood Champ, you also cannot force Sanctuary on her squad. See thats where a debate would come it with Heroic Sacrifice. Your not using the Psychic Power on her or her squad, your using it on the Grey Knight. We don't know exactly what the killing effect is, it may be as simple as guiding your hand to a weak spot or something like seeing a few seconds into the future and being able to predict what is going to happen and act accordingly or a myriad of other effects. None of this is actually affecting the Lady or her squad, it is affecting the Grey Knight. Absolutely she and her squad would be invulnerable to NFW activation and she would be affected by shrouding as that isn't cast on them. The effect is on the GK its was cast on, not on the lady. It doesn't say "any squad the target squad shoots at gets a cover save of +1" it says "the targeted squad gets a cover save or +1". Hammerhand would affect them as well, because again, thats cast on the GK, not the lady. I just ask myself this simple question. Who is the power actually targeting? In the Hammerhand example, they lady is not being technically affected by it, she is being affected by the GK's strength. The GK was affected by the Hammerhand. There are other examples of being immune to psychic powers in the game (null rod for example) which all that means is simply you can not be the target of a psychic power or affected by its area affect (ie, Holocaust, etc). It doesn't mean you ignore benefits placed on other targets. He isn't psychicing her. he is sticking a sword in her. also, why is this such a big debate? just ignore the little eldar chick and teleport a dreadknight on top of her. brotherhood champion can go take out some big tasty tank or something. can crowe do this too? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 just thinking about this. next apocalypse game i play space marines i'm going to take all of my PA GKs that have swords (about 20) and play them all as brotherhood champions. i'll ally them with my blood angels and stick them in some lucius razorbacks, zoom them across to the big boys and take them all out. should be a laugh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
veidin Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Be aware that the power is only useable if the model is killed during the assault phase. So if you are sitting in base contact with a Land Raider/Monolith and it blasts you apart you do NOT get to use the Heroic Sacrifice. If someone wants to plop Crowe or a BC next to your Land Raider or Monolith just shoot him and laugh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 good point. you'll have to be in assault with a unit next to the vehicle. titans though. they have close combat weapons and stomp. i love the idea of a titan treading on the champion and then just dying some how. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Iam putting my bets up that even though it works on Titans some will claim it to be innefective against gargantuan creatures. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 because they are not killed by automatic kill weapons? maybe but the codex says remove the model, not kill it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 He isn't psychicing her. he is sticking a sword in her. also, why is this such a big debate? just ignore the little eldar chick and teleport a dreadknight on top of her. brotherhood champion can go take out some big tasty tank or something. can crowe do this too? BrotherWasted covered this above (apart form the Force Weapon, it is a Psychic Power). Lady Malis, and anyone with a Null Rod doesn't (unlike Aegis, which is where the debate started) need to be targeted. They are just immune to all effects. HS is a Psychic Power effect, regardless of if it blasts her with warp ower, or the BC sticks a Sword in her. She is immune. Someone wiht a Null Rod is immune. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 yes but titans etc do not have null rods, hence...... the tiny percentage of immune people in the whole universe you can just kill with you sword normally Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 He isn't psychicing her. he is sticking a sword in her. also, why is this such a big debate? just ignore the little eldar chick and teleport a dreadknight on top of her. brotherhood champion can go take out some big tasty tank or something. can crowe do this too? BrotherWasted covered this above (apart form the Force Weapon, it is a Psychic Power). Lady Malis, and anyone with a Null Rod doesn't (unlike Aegis, which is where the debate started) need to be targeted. They are just immune to all effects. HS is a Psychic Power effect, regardless of if it blasts her with warp ower, or the BC sticks a Sword in her. She is immune. Someone wiht a Null Rod is immune. This is going to be highly dependent on the wording of the rule in the DE codex. Can someone quote it for reference? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I already did. Once more, with the fluff this time: To represent the strange powers of the trans-dimensional being whose heart beats in her breast, Lady Malys is completely immune to the effects of psychic powers, as is any unit she joins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 He isn't psychicing her. he is sticking a sword in her. also, why is this such a big debate? just ignore the little eldar chick and teleport a dreadknight on top of her. brotherhood champion can go take out some big tasty tank or something. can crowe do this too? BrotherWasted covered this above (apart form the Force Weapon, it is a Psychic Power). Lady Malis, and anyone with a Null Rod doesn't (unlike Aegis, which is where the debate started) need to be targeted. They are just immune to all effects. HS is a Psychic Power effect, regardless of if it blasts her with warp ower, or the BC sticks a Sword in her. She is immune. Someone wiht a Null Rod is immune. Thats totally false. It does depend on the power and how its targeted. Its completely dependent on that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 would you say she was immune to hammerhand. ie the GKS make themselve stronger but not against her? i wouldn't i don't see much difference between hammer hand and heroic sacrifice in this respect. both are the GKs bolstering THEMSELVES psychically Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 She is immune to Hammerhand because she is not being affected by Hammerhand. Hammerhand makes absolutely no reference to enemy models - only the GKs are getting the benefit of the power. Looks like I was wrong about NFW activation, since it is a psychic power that would cause Instant Death, Malys is immune. Heroic Sacrifice does not bolster the Grey Knight. It tells you to make an attack against a model. That attack is the result of a psychic power, therefore Malys is immune to it and any effects that would occur from it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2736909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 She is immune to Hammerhand because she is not being affected by Hammerhand. Hammerhand makes absolutely no reference to enemy models - only the GKs are getting the benefit of the power. Looks like I was wrong about NFW activation, since it is a psychic power that would cause Instant Death, Malys is immune. Heroic Sacrifice does not bolster the Grey Knight. It tells you to make an attack against a model. That attack is the result of a psychic power, therefore Malys is immune to it and any effects that would occur from it. I disagree. Based on the wording you provided (thanks for that, and sorry I missed it before), she is not immune. The effect of the psychic power doesn't touch her, it touches the Brotherhood Champion and grants him one attack that removes a model from play if it hits. She never feels the effects... it is exactly the same as Hammerhand. She is still hit at str+1 because the psychic power affects the GK, not her. Similarly, she is subject to the attack because the power provides the BC with the attack, it is not the attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Heroic Sacrifice does not bolster the Grey Knight. It tells you to make an attack against a model. That attack is the result of a psychic power, therefore Malys is immune to it and any effects that would occur from it. I disagree. Heroic Sacrifice follows the same pattern Hammerhand. Pass a test then hit the target. I think she is affected. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 She is immune to Hammerhand because she is not being affected by Hammerhand. Hammerhand makes absolutely no reference to enemy models - only the GKs are getting the benefit of the power. Looks like I was wrong about NFW activation, since it is a psychic power that would cause Instant Death, Malys is immune. Heroic Sacrifice does not bolster the Grey Knight. It tells you to make an attack against a model. That attack is the result of a psychic power, therefore Malys is immune to it and any effects that would occur from it. "though his body is rent and torn the brotherhood champion reaches into his inner reserves to animate his failing form for one final, fatal blow." "upon receiving a mortal wound, a brotherhood champion unleashes a pulse of psychic energy into his aegis suit - one final burst of forbidden magic for one final portentous deed. This dying impulse impels the suit to temporarily re-knit sinew and bone, and gives the fallen brotherhood champion the opportunity to strike one last blow for his battle brothers" so the psychic power temporarily heals his body enough that he is then able to himself strike a blow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Thats totally false. It does depend on the power and how its targeted. Its completely dependent on that. No. It's like Null Rod users being immune to Harlequins VoT. She is immune to the effects of *any* Psychic Power. I'd even go as far as to claim she is immune to the +1S from Hammerhand. The increased S is an effect of a Psychic Power, therefore, she is immune to it. Regardless of targetting. If her rule stated that she was immune to Psychic Powers that target *her* (or her unit), it would be different. It doesn't. I disagree. Heroic Sacrifice follows the same pattern Hammerhand. Pass a test then hit the target. I think she is affected. The BC normal hits don't *ever* remove the target from play, with no saves. That *only* happens as the result of using a Psychic Power. It is an effect of a Psychic Power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Thats totally false. It does depend on the power and how its targeted. Its completely dependent on that. No. It's like Null Rod users being immune to Harlequins VoT. She is immune to the effects of *any* Psychic Power. I'd even go as far as to claim she is immune to the +1S from Hammerhand. The increased S is an effect of a Psychic Power, therefore, she is immune to it. Regardless of targetting. If her rule stated that she was immune to Psychic Powers that target *her* (or her unit), it would be different. It doesn't. Your making my point. The increased strength is an effect of the power. It isnt effecting her, its effecting the GK. The lady's strength did not increase. Thats like saying she is immune to steroids so if I take steroids and get huge and punch her she will feel like I'm Pee Wee Herman. That makes zero sense. I disagree. Heroic Sacrifice follows the same pattern Hammerhand. Pass a test then hit the target. I think she is affected. The BC normal hits don't *ever* remove the target from play, with no saves. That *only* happens as the result of using a Psychic Power. It is an effect of a Psychic Power. Thats not true, the Callidus' normal attacks instakill no psychic power involved, as do hits of strength double toughness, as do C'tan attacks (IIRC). Its described as representing like the examples I posted above, that one lucky Heroic shot that got him in the heart or the brain or the jumblees or what have you. Both the game mechanic and the fluff support it being a power used on the GK and not the target. Hence, she would be affected. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 The Cally and C'Tan *aren't* the BC though... You miss the point. Normally, the BC *can't* remvoe from play (and I'm not talking ID here either). This is only the effect of a Psychic Power. It takes a Psychic Power and a Psychic Test (and a to hit roll), to do that. Malis and a Null Rod are immune to that. Your making my point. The increased strength is an effect of the power. It isnt effecting her, its effecting the GK. The 'effect' is the unit now wounds on a 2+ instead of a 3+. She is immune to that effect. Edit: This would be totaly clear cut if her rule stated effects that target her or her unit. It doesn't. Hammerhand doesn't need to target her. It can target the GK unit themselves, and she'll *still* be immune to it. Psychic Powers just don't exist, at all, when facing Malis. Edit: Just to clarify, this is totally different to the 'Aegis', which requires the GK unit to be targetted. Malis and Null Rods don't require this (unless Null Rods do now, can't remember to be honest). The Power could target an empty section of board, and Malis would still ignore it entirely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
XaClocKWorKoX Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 does she act as a null rod? because it sounds like it states that any direct pyshic affect is immune to her and her unit. and hammerhand and HS are not direct at her/her unit. you are reading in between the lines on the life or death of one model when the real problem is that HS can drop a damn titan. ( now that makes no sense unless its fluff ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 No, it doesn't have to be direct. It doesn't have to target her. Her rule has been posted twice in the thread, I'll copy it here; To represent the strange powers of the trans-dimensional being whose heart beats in her breast, Lady Malys is completely immune to the effects of psychic powers, as is any unit she joins. No mention of needing to target her, no mention of who uses the powers, or on what. She and her unit are just toally immune. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 She's immune, yes. But Hammerhand is not targeting her. HS does not shove his psychic might through his sword and make heads explode on contact. Both powers are enhancing the caster of the power. Her entry makes no mention of negating the powers cast on units attacking her, that would be like having an always-works-no-matter-what psychic hood. Sorry to say that, by RAW, she'd be gibbed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 They don't have to target her... *All* the effects of any powers just don't work on her. I've just reread this thread, and most of the comments about Lady Malis are; She's not immune, as the power hasn't targeted her. She is immune, becuase she doesn't need to be the target. But the power didn't target her. It doesn't have to target her... She's not immune, she wasn't the target. She doesn't have to be the target... Guys, can we either drop this, or actually stop with claiming that not being the target has any sort of effect on the discussion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 You're failing to really grasp the concept of what's happening though. GK : "I'm using this power to make it so I can hurl this Buick at your face with a flick of the wrist." /cast Hammerhand Lady M : "If you're targeting me and my unit, your power does diddly and you throw your back out." GK : "???" /gib The powers are enhancing the wielder, improving their statline or, in the case of the BC, allowing for a final, knee-jerk attempt at a Coup de Grace by..wait for it...pulsing the power through himself. She's not a walking null rod for opposing units. She can be immune to powers all she wants. Her ass is still coming off the table. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 >_< "If you're targeting me and my unit Come on... Please... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/228327-heroic-sacrifice/page/2/#findComment-2737570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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