heroic sacrifice

[Grimtooth]

The steroid argument is a damn good one.

[Spacefrisian]

The steroid argument is a damn good one.

 

 

But Steroids arent Psychic powers :D

[Whitefireinferno]

But Steroids arent Psychic powers ;)

 

But LSD is and those guys don't know or Care what they do...

[Gentlemanloser]

If we go with your argument, then she is also immune to Psycannons, Psybolts, and especially Psilencers. They are all augmented or in the case of the Psilencer, pure psychic energy. Sure they are weapons, but they are powered by Psychic energy.

 

Fluff. Which is what is being confused here. None of those is a Psychic Power.

 

Heroic Sacrifice is not a psychic attack, it is a self buff. The psychic power doesn't even require there be a valid enemy target to activate.

 

Of course it's a Psychic Power... come on.

 

OK, how about this, the 'fluff' of HS is changed to read;

 

When the BC dies, his overloaded Aegis ward explodes!!!! Make your Psychic Test, and if passed choose a single mini in B2B and remove from play as a casualty.

 

That's a pure Psychic Power right?

 

OK, now we add in a Characterist test, like Jaws or Stern.

 

When the BC dies, his overloaded Aegis ward explodes!!!! Make your Psychic Test, and if passed choose a single mini in B2B. They have to make an I or S test or be removed from play as a casualty.

 

Still a pure Psychic Power, right?

 

So now we shift the Characterist test to make it a shooting attack that requires a to-hit roll.

 

When the BC dies, his overloaded Aegis ward explodes!!!! Make your Psychic Test, and if passed choose a single mini in B2B. The BC has to make a to-hit roll with his BS to fire this shooting attack. If it hits, remove the target from play as a casualty.

 

Still a pure Psychic Power. I hope you see where this is going...

 

Now we change the Shooting To-hit roll to an Assault WS to-hit roll.

 

When the BC dies, his overloaded Aegis ward explodes!!!! Make your Psychic Test, and if passed choose a single mini in B2B. The BC has to make a to-hit roll with his WS to land this attack. If it hits, remove the target from play as a casualty.

 

Still a pure Psychic Power.

 

HS is a pure Psychic Power. Is stopped totally by Hoods. And Malys and Null Rods are immune to it.

 

That's all there is folks.

 

Really.

 

4.) Champion is permitted 1 attack out of initiative order

 

That's not correct. It doesn't give the BC and extra attack out of initiative order. It's a Psychic Power that requires a WS based to hit roll to work. A CC version of a Pychic Shooting attack.

[Spacefrisian]

Not only Malys or Null rods block it.

 

Khârn also blocks it as he himself is also immune to psychic powers. Daemons of Khorne can have a 2+ inv against psychic powers.

 

 

The Champion becomes weaker and weaker by the minute.

[Drachnon]

The blessing of the blood god only works against wounds from psychic powers and force weapons iirc. Since HS doesn't cause wounds it would be unaffected.

[Angelis Mortis]

Not only Malys or Null rods block it.

 

Khârn also blocks it as he himself is also immune to psychic powers. Daemons of Khorne can have a 2+ inv against psychic powers.

 

 

The Champion becomes weaker and weaker by the minute.

Yeah, it does. That is if you ignore the rules.

[Angelis Mortis]

If we go with your argument, then she is also immune to Psycannons, Psybolts, and especially Psilencers. They are all augmented or in the case of the Psilencer, pure psychic energy. Sure they are weapons, but they are powered by Psychic energy.

 

Fluff. Which is what is being confused here. None of those is a Psychic Power.

 

Heroic Sacrifice is not a psychic attack, it is a self buff. The psychic power doesn't even require there be a valid enemy target to activate.

 

Of course it's a Psychic Power... come on.

 

OK, how about this, the 'fluff' of HS is changed to read;

 

When the BC dies, his overloaded Aegis ward explodes!!!! Make your Psychic Test, and if passed choose a single mini in B2B and remove from play as a casualty.

 

That's a pure Psychic Power right?

 

OK, now we add in a Characterist test, like Jaws or Stern.

 

When the BC dies, his overloaded Aegis ward explodes!!!! Make your Psychic Test, and if passed choose a single mini in B2B. They have to make an I or S test or be removed from play as a casualty.

 

Still a pure Psychic Power, right?

 

So now we shift the Characterist test to make it a shooting attack that requires a to-hit roll.

 

When the BC dies, his overloaded Aegis ward explodes!!!! Make your Psychic Test, and if passed choose a single mini in B2B. The BC has to make a to-hit roll with his BS to fire this shooting attack. If it hits, remove the target from play as a casualty.

 

Still a pure Psychic Power. I hope you see where this is going...

 

Now we change the Shooting To-hit roll to an Assault WS to-hit roll.

 

When the BC dies, his overloaded Aegis ward explodes!!!! Make your Psychic Test, and if passed choose a single mini in B2B. The BC has to make a to-hit roll with his WS to land this attack. If it hits, remove the target from play as a casualty.

 

Still a pure Psychic Power.

 

HS is a pure Psychic Power. Is stopped totally by Hoods. And Malys and Null Rods are immune to it.

 

That's all there is folks.

 

Really.

 

4.) Champion is permitted 1 attack out of initiative order

 

That's not correct. It doesn't give the BC and extra attack out of initiative order. It's a Psychic Power that requires a WS based to hit roll to work. A CC version of a Pychic Shooting attack.

 

Thought we were discussing what the rules said, not what if we changed the fluff to read so it supports my argument. Come on dude, its pretty clear and I think we have made some very compelling arguments. The broad interpretation you are suggesting opens the door to a lot of really awkward game mechanics. You have to take the exact meaning vs exact meaning.

[Gentlemanloser]

I am discussing the rules. HS is a Psychic Power. In total. The extra attack, the removal without save. All the same singular Psychic Power.

 

The example above was to show HS is *no* different in application to a Psychic Shooting attack or Sterns Banishment.

 

It's the 'fluff' of the BC getting back up and hitting the target, that people are getting confused about and hung up on. It's irrellevant. It's flavour.

 

Bottom line, the BC uses a Psychic Power to remove an enemy in B2B. Malys is immune to that.

[drou feov]

Bottom line, the BC uses a Psychic Power to remove an enemy in B2B. Malys is immune to that.

I too don't think you can narrow it down that easily... The fluff isn't just flavor, but a way to interpret things that seem confusing. In this case I too would read the rules like so: he uses a psychic power on himself (and Malys or any Null rod can't affect that, right?) and then makes one last desperate, regular attack. There's nothing psychic in the hit that ensues a succesful test.

 

I think I'll put my money on this being FAQ'd so that if the test passes the BC is temporarily treated as to having 1 wound left and granted an extra attack, which instagibs anything if it hits. Then he dies and maybe takes something with him. Would seem to suit the overall lines of the rules best, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Gentlemanloser]

Then there's nothing Psychic In a Jaws.

 

The Runepriest uses Jaws to summon up the crack in the ground.

 

But it's a Physical crack in the ground that swallows people up, isn't it?

 

A Psychic Power is a Psychic Power. Its effects are the effects of a Psychic Power. There's no getting round that.

[veidin]

The only thing that stands out is the description of the spell. It states that though his body be rent and torn the BC/Crowe reaches into his inner reserves to animate his failing form for one last fatal blow. He's not casting anything on the enemy, he is using his psychic might to keep him alive long enough to attempt one last blow in defiance of being killed. Sadly, this is all fluff and prolly doesnt hold a candle to most of the argument here but still the description doesnt show any reason why someone would be immune to it.

 

Khârn and Crowe are duking it out trading blows. Crowe bolsters his own strength with Hammerhand to hit harder hoping to drop Khârn to his knees. Khârn's blessings do not negate this since Crowe is buffing himself. Unfortunately, Khârn has been around since before the Heresy and bests Crowe. As Gorechild rips into Crowe's chest he unleashes the last of his psychic power using it to sustain his body long enough to pull Khârn close and shove the Blade of Antwyr through Khârn's chest. His psychic power spent, Crowe's body fails and falls alongside Khârn's.

 

At least that's how I interpret the spell but again interpretation means nothing when there's not black and white rules to support it :(

[Grimtooth]

I think some people are not understanding effect.

 

For those of you just saying that all HS does is give the BC a last ditch attack, you are wrong. You are giving the BC a last ditch attack that upon just hitting, removes a model from play. Yes you are correct that you are "buffing" the BC, but the power is not limited to the buff. You also remove a model from play, just by hitting it.

 

Won't work against Maly, but HH does.

 

Thinking about the steroid example,

 

Malys is immune to steroids. A BC takes steroids. He punches Malys and when his punch hits her, it injects her with a lethal dose of steroids. Malys is immune to steroids. The punch does nothing.

[stilettoblade]

I think this is where people are having issues with HS:

1; It's totally illogical that immunity to psyker powers should stop him from buffing himself up

2; It's totally illogical that immunity to psyker powers wouldn't prevent the remove-from-play effect.

Both of these positions are quite reasonable, and quite vehemently supported. I don't think they are mutually exclusive, and I think the wording of the fluff suggests a logical solution. (doesn't remove the need for a FAQ, but might work as a compromise for some of ya)

 

My theory for how it's intended is that if the target is immune to psyker powers then it should still be resolved as a normal (albeit out of order) attack, since quite reasonably he shouldn't be prevented from taking the purely physical attack portion of the ability described in the fluff, it just won't cause the target to vanish in a puff of smoke.

[Angelis Mortis]

Thinking about the steroid example,

 

Malys is immune to steroids. A BC takes steroids. He punches Malys and when his punch hits her, it injects her with a lethal dose of steroids. Malys is immune to steroids. The punch does nothing.

 

Except that neither the game mechanic nor the fluff support your example. They support this example.

 

GK takes the steriods. Gets buff, slugs the Lady, she dies.

 

Your mechanic would place the test after the hit, which is not whats happening. All you have to do is hit her, you don't have to wound nor perform a psychic test to remove her. You have to perform a psychic test to buff the GK.

[Grimtooth]

Thinking about the steroid example,

 

Malys is immune to steroids. A BC takes steroids. He punches Malys and when his punch hits her, it injects her with a lethal dose of steroids. Malys is immune to steroids. The punch does nothing.

 

Except that neither the game mechanic nor the fluff support your example. They support this example.

 

GK takes the steriods. Gets buff, slugs the Lady, she dies.

 

Your mechanic would place the test after the hit, which is not whats happening. All you have to do is hit her, you don't have to wound nor perform a psychic test to remove her. You have to perform a psychic test to buff the GK.

 

Actually the steroid example is simplifying HS far too much and HS is not just a buff. To make it truly an example;

 

A model affected by steroids is really strong and able to inject lethal doses of steroid when he hits anyone.

 

A model using steroids hits a model immune to steroids.

 

Nothing happens.

 

HS is not just a buff to the BC if at all. If not for the psychic test, the BC would not even be able to attack as he would be removed from the table as a casualty. The attack and the subsequent hit are both part of the psychic power, they are not separate entities.

 

What is the effect of HS?

 

An attack that removes a model from play if it hits.

 

Who does the effect of HS affect?

 

A model in base to base with the BC is removed from play.

 

Malys is immune to the effects of psychic powers and thus is not affected by them.

 

Look at how this matches to HH which would affect Malys

 

What is the effect of Hammerhand?

 

It give +1Str to the unit until the end of the assault phase.

 

Who does the effect of Hammerhand affect?

 

The unit it was cast on.

[Something Wycked]

Still a pure Psychic Power.

Not quite, Gentleman. You're focusing too hard on "psychic power" when the examples you're giving are things like psychic shooting attacks. Of course its a "pure psychic power". So is Hammerhand- all psychic, all the time. However, the Strength it grants becomes innate and natural and not subject to immunities like this one. Just like Heroic Sacrifice.

 

Almost every example you give has a direct line between the psychic test and the enemy model targeted and affected by the Psychic test. Heroic Sacrifice does not have such a restriction; you can activate Heroic Sacrifice even if there are no valid targets, confirming the self-buff nature of the power.

 

4.) Champion is permitted 1 attack out of initiative order

 

That's not correct. It doesn't give the BC and extra attack out of initiative order. It's a Psychic Power that requires a WS based to hit roll to work. A CC version of a Pychic Shooting attack.

The power explicitly says it permits the Champion an attack out of initiative order, and then it goes on to specify the results of that attack whether successful or failed.

[Grimtooth]

Still a pure Psychic Power.

Not quite, Gentleman. You're focusing too hard on "psychic power" when the examples you're giving are things like psychic shooting attacks. Of course its a "pure psychic power". So is Hammerhand- all psychic, all the time. However, the Strength it grants becomes innate and natural and not subject to immunities like this one. Just like Heroic Sacrifice.

 

Almost every example you give has a direct line between the psychic test and the enemy model targeted and affected by the Psychic test. Heroic Sacrifice does not have such a restriction; you can activate Heroic Sacrifice even if there are no valid targets, confirming the self-buff nature of the power.

 

4.) Champion is permitted 1 attack out of initiative order

 

That's not correct. It doesn't give the BC and extra attack out of initiative order. It's a Psychic Power that requires a WS based to hit roll to work. A CC version of a Pychic Shooting attack.

The power explicitly says it permits the Champion an attack out of initiative order, and then it goes on to specify the results of that attack whether successful or failed.

 

You keep adding the term, "out of initiative order" as a means of justifying your argument while it is not part of the rule at all. It is only listed as an attack made after a psychic test is passed and if the attack hits, it removes a model in base to base as a casualty. Per the rule it is not even a close combat attack as it is done when the BC is removed as a casualty.

 

I outlined above how both HS works with Malys and how HH works.

[Something Wycked]

You keep adding the term, "out of initiative order" as a means of justifying your argument while it is not part of the rule at all.

Its added for clarity, since the psychic test is performed:

 

1) After the Champion suffers an unsaved wound which

2) Is inflicted by an enemy model on their initiative and

3) Is likely not the same initiative as the Champion, as he has 3 different initiative speeds- before you (I10), never (defensive stance), and normal stat line.

 

So unless the Champion is killed at the same initiative as he's acting on (I10 or his normal, which is 6 iirc) he is getting an attack out of initiative order if the psychic test is passed.

 

It is only listed as an attack made after a psychic test is passed and if the attack hits, it removes a model in base to base as a casualty. Per the rule it is not even a close combat attack as it is done when the BC is removed as a casualty.

Mostly correct. It is an attack allowed after a psychic test is passed- you got that part right. It does remove a model off the board if it hits, also correct. But per the rule, it is a close combat attack as it specifically states it is made using the Champion's normal weapon skill, indicating you make the same comparison between the Champion's weapon skill and the enemy unit's weapon skill to determine what the roll to hit requires on the die as you would when attacking during normal initiative rounds.

[Grimtooth]

You keep adding the term, "out of initiative order" as a means of justifying your argument while it is not part of the rule at all.

Its added for clarity, since the psychic test is performed:

 

1) After the Champion suffers an unsaved wound which

2) Is inflicted by an enemy model on their initiative and

3) Is likely not the same initiative as the Champion, as he has 3 different initiative speeds- before you (I10), never (defensive stance), and normal stat line.

 

So unless the Champion is killed at the same initiative as he's acting on (I10 or his normal, which is 6 iirc) he is getting an attack out of initiative order if the psychic test is passed.

 

It is only listed as an attack made after a psychic test is passed and if the attack hits, it removes a model in base to base as a casualty. Per the rule it is not even a close combat attack as it is done when the BC is removed as a casualty.

Mostly correct. It is an attack allowed after a psychic test is passed- you got that part right. It does remove a model off the board if it hits, also correct. But per the rule, it is a close combat attack as it specifically states it is made using the Champion's normal weapon skill, indicating you make the same comparison between the Champion's weapon skill and the enemy unit's weapon skill to determine what the roll to hit requires on the die as you would when attacking during normal initiative rounds.

 

No, it is done when the BC is removed asa casualty which is at no initiative order at all. Whenever he is removed as a casualty is when it is done, regardless of the conditions of whatever initiative is currently or not currently active. That is when it is done, not out of iniative order, but when he is removed as a casualty.

 

And the rule does not specifically state that you use the Champion's weapon skill. It tells you that it is an attack, not a close combat attack, that id the hit lands removes a model in base to base. Granted attacks are listed on a models profile and represent the base amount of attacks in close combat, the BC is not making an attack from his attack profile. He is making an attack granted to him by a psychic power.

 

You still have not even addressed the effect/affect breakdown that I have shown you applies to HS and in comparison to HH but instead are trying to wordplay the description of the psychic power into not really being a psychic power.

[Something Wycked]

No, it is done when the BC is removed asa casualty which is at no initiative order at all. Whenever he is removed as a casualty is when it is done, regardless of the conditions of whatever initiative is currently or not currently active. That is when it is done, not out of iniative order, but when he is removed as a casualty.

C:GK, page 26, Heroic Sacrifice, emphasis mine:

 

This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty during either player's Assault phase.

Since it is happening during the Assault phase, initiative rounds are happening when he is killed except under extraordinary circumstances, such as if he were to fail a save from a Purifier's Cleansing Flame. Outside of instances like that, he will die to a melee attack in an assault which is happening at a particular initiative- and then Heroic Sacrifice happens at that initiative before any other blows are struck on slower initiatives.

 

And the rule does not specifically state that you use the Champion's weapon skill. It tells you that it is an attack, not a close combat attack, that id the hit lands removes a model in base to base. Granted attacks are listed on a models profile and represent the base amount of attacks in close combat, the BC is not making an attack from his attack profile. He is making an attack granted to him by a psychic power.

What other "attack" are we supposed to infer from "...the Brotherhood Champion immediately makes a single attack..." ? Surely he's not attacking with his Storm Bolter in the Assault phase since that is specifically disallowed. Nor is he using Smite. If he is making an "attack" in the Assault phase, it is using his Weapon Skill barring any other instructions (eg, Khârn's "always hits on a 2+".)

 

You still have not even addressed the effect/affect breakdown that I have shown you applies to HS and in comparison to HH but instead are trying to wordplay the description of the psychic power into not really being a psychic power.

If what I'm doing is "wordplay"... I won't even address that any further.

 

But sure, I'm game to address your breakdown.

 

What is the effect of HS?

 

Allows the Brotherhood Champion to make an attack out of initiative order when the model would ordinarily be removed from play.

 

Who does the effect of HS affect?

 

The Brotherhood Champion.

 

Malys is immune to the effects of psychic powers and thus is not affected by them.

 

Is Malys affected by melee attacks that remove models from the board?

 

For added clarity, emphasis mine:

If the Psychic test is successful, the Brotherhood Champion immediately makes a single attack against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died... If the attack misses, only the Brotherhood Champion is removed from play.

The Champion's target is unaffected by the ability if the physical attack misses. The power affects the Brotherhood Champion- Psychic Power test > Champion's attack > Results. This isn't a force weapon activation where a power is being directly channeled through a wound caused by a physical attack.

[Gentlemanloser]

Only he is removed becuase, well, he's already being removed...

 

This power can be used when the Brotherhood Champion is removed as a casualty

 

It's the same with Jaws/Banishment and the target making thier characteristic test.

 

The effects of HS are a psychic power. Until you can disprove that, Malys is totally immune.

 

It's even listed under the heading "Psychic Powers". :P

 

you can activate Heroic Sacrifice even if there are no valid targets, confirming the self-buff nature of the power.

 

You can also activate Smite, even if there's no one in range. Your point is moot.

[Prathios]

Don't usually do this but I have to side against Gentlemanloser this time. I do not see a psychic power "directly" effecting her.

 

I use the word directly because nobody is breaking it down this simply. Either you believe HH is blocked by her, and that HS is also blocked or you don't. They are the exact same type of power. Yes HS is a psychic power, yes HH is a psychic power. They operate under the same mechanics so you can't pick and choose that one works or it does not. I'm also assuming that you would rule out Quicksilver, and MoT as well? Any power that would buff a friendly unit doesn't actually gain its bonuses against her?

 

Next part of the argument, in order to prove your point Gentleman you need to prove that her ability and a null rods ability block the psychic powers outright. In other words that they keep the enemy model from even using them and making a check. If you can prove this then you are correct. Once the psychic check is made on HH or HS there is no power "directly effecting them". It's because it has to effect her everyone is in a tussle about targeting. So we have to calm down on that.

 

If you want to use the word effect to imply that the results of a psychic power that bolster the user don't work on her either that opens up a whole new argument I don't think anyone wants to go down. Because technically if you want to hold to your definition any psychic power used on the table while she is on it would fail as the game is effected and she is a part of it.

 

This all boils down to how you interpret the word effect. Is she effected by the power, yes, in the same way I'm effected by butterfly's wings in Japan. Her death is a result of a bolstering effect on an enemy model. The only way to argue she does not die is if you can prove that she cancels the power from ever taking place. If the psychic power goes off with a successful test she is being killed in martial combat, not by psychic power. Your JoW example falls apart because it's an attack by a psychic power, psychic power is used, models in the line are killed. This is a multi-step process involving another attack. The psychic power is simply to allow him to heroically sacrifice himself to insure another dies too.

 

So I ask, does her psychic immunity mean she can stop him from healing up for one last attack? If she can stop him from getting up you're correct, if she can't then she better hope he misses because if he hits she is going to die.

 

P.S. The steroid injector example is horrible. If I'm immune to steroids and someone smashes me with a punch with steroid injectors, sure I'm not getting hurt by the steroids... but the punch still crumpled my face. Being immune to psychic powers does not make ones skins impossible to cut with a power sword. (then again if you truly think she's totally immune to all that the blade is no longer considered a power weapon since psychic energy is what makes the blade a power weapon...)

 

edited obvious grammatical errors and added a couple bits.

[Gentlemanloser]

Either you believe HH is blocked by her, and that HS is also blocked or you don't. They are the exact same type of power. Yes HS is a psychic power, yes HH is a psychic power. They operate under the same mechanics so you can't pick and choose that one works or it does not. I'm also assuming that you would rule out Quicksilver, and MoT as well? Any power that would buff a friendly unit doesn't actually gain its bonuses against her?

 

Currently, I would rule HH is blocked. She is effected by HHs increased strength. Would you argue she isn't? What would have wounded her on 3+ now wounds her on a 2+. That's a direct result of a Psychic Power. (Which includes Quicksilver and MoT, for the same reason).

 

It's a powerful rule. Probably too powerful, but that's what GW get when using such sweeping statements as "immune to all effects".

 

Again, if (like the Aegis), Malys and Null Rods were stated to have to be the targets, HH etc would have no effect. But sadly, they don't.

 

in order to prove your point Gentleman you need to prove that her ability and a null rods ability block the psychic powers outright. In other words that they keep the enemy model from even using them and making a check. If you can prove this then you are correct. Once the psychic check is made on HH or HS there is no power "directly effecting them". It's because it has to effect her everyone is in a tussle about targeting. So we have to calm down on that.

 

Not correct. It doesn't have to target her, and she doesn't have to stop the test. I don't have to prove what you're asking. :rolleyes:

 

Take Warp Quake as an example.

 

The Justicar could cast is successfully, and it goes off. It could even effect many other Deldar units.

 

But then Malys DS within 12", gets effected by WQ, but is immune. WQ does nothing. She doesn't need to block it outright.

 

If you want to use the word effect to imply that the results of a psychic power that bolster the user don't work on her either that opens up a whole new argument I don't think anyone wants to go down. Because technically if you want to hold to your definition any psychic power used on the table while she is on it would fail as the game is effected and she is a part of it.

 

As long as it effected her or her unit, of course. IF it effected other Deldar units, then she would have no effect on it.

 

This all boils down to how you interpret the word effect. Is she effected by the power, yes, in the same way I'm effected by butterfly's wings in Japan. Her death is a result of a bolstering effect on an enemy model.

 

Well, there you go. Case closed. <_< She's effected by HS. Therefore, she's immune. Simples! :confused:

[Something Wycked]

Only he is removed becuase, well, he's already being removed...

Except when using the power, he's not removed until the power has run its course.

 

It's the same with Jaws/Banishment and the target making thier characteristic test.

Except that JotWW and Banishment directly affect the target, as evidenced by their characteristic tests.

 

It's even listed under the heading "Psychic Powers". :D

Of course it is listed under "Psychic Powers". Like every other self/AoE buff ability that requires a Psychic Test to activate, like Force Dome, Might of the Ancients, The Quickening, Might of Heroes, Shield of Sanguinius, The Sanguine Sword, Unleash Rage, Wings of Sanguinius, Stormcaller, Tempest's Wrath, Might of Titan, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, The Shrouding, The Summoning...

 

You can also activate Smite, even if there's no one in range. Your point is moot.

Psychic Shooting Attack =/= Self Buff.... Your point is moot.

 

I can imperiously point words at you too, see?